Revelation About the Book of James

Guojing said:

I see, so you believe that faith alone is sufficient for salvation initially, but works are necessary for you to keep that salvation permanently? Is that a correct interpretation of your view?

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No, and it would be a poor understanding of salvation in the New Testament. Justification plus sanctification = salvation. The kind of works I'm talking about, that James is talking about, that Jesus is talking about in the parable of the soils is also called the fruit of the Spirit. No that is not what I believe at all and neither does any Christian tradition I am aware of. Salvation is either permanent or it's not eternal life, no where in the New Testament is the promise of the gospel temporal life, it's always eternal life.

We are justified by grace through faith, sanctified by grace through faith and equipped for service by grace through faith. Works and grace are not in conflict anywhere in the New Testament, works of the Law are another matter entirely.

mark kennedy said:

What you did not mention and I can never drag out of people, what is the royal law? Better yet, what was the problem James was addressing? Paul specifically argues for justification by grace through faith as does the entire New Testament, a faith that is apart from works of the law. Salvation is never apart from works of righteousness, that's the whole point anyway, the tree that bears not fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. What works are we talking about here?

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James was addressing having faith without works to show for it. Paul calls for justification through faith, but not through faith alone. There’s a fact that they’re not talking about the same works and Paul never uses the word by “faith alone.” So Sola Fide creates a contradiction and misunderstanding which shouldn’t and doesn’t exist.

Al Masihi said:

James was addressing having faith without works to show for it. Paul calls for justification through faith, but not through faith alone. There’s a fact that they’re not talking about the same works and Paul never uses the word by “faith alone.” So Sola Fide creates a contradiction and misunderstanding which shouldn’t and doesn’t exist.

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No it doesn't, I asked you a very specific question readily apparent from the immediate context, what works is James referring to?

mark kennedy said:

No, and it would be a poor understanding of salvation in the New Testament. Justification plus sanctification = salvation. The kind of works I'm talking about, that James is talking about, that Jesus is talking about in the parable of the soils is also called the fruit of the Spirit. No that is not what I believe at all and neither does any Christian tradition I am aware of. Salvation is either permanent or it's not eternal life, no where in the New Testament is the promise of the gospel temporal life, it's always eternal life.

We are justified by grace through faith, sanctified by grace through faith and equipped for service by grace through faith. Works and grace are not in conflict anywhere in the New Testament, works of the Law are another matter entirely.

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So if you believe that Justification + Sanctification = Salvation,

And you seem to also believe that Faith = Justification, but sanctification is shown by works, when you stated that If you fail to bear fruit you are not saved.

Does it mean you are also believing that Faith + Works = Salvation?

Tone said:

Why can't he be differentiating between a conceptual idea (abstract) of faith and an actual (concrete) faith?

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By this I guess you are taking option 3, which is

You can take it as Paul is saying justification before God, which is faith only (abstract). But James is talking about justification before Man, which requires work (concrete)?

DM25 said:

because it is alone, not works. What is tricky about that? THE BIBLE SAYS SO. "by faith, not of your works. Lest any man shall boast". I have no idea why you guys hate the word alone so much when the bible says it is faith, not works. It can either be one or the other or both... And it says it is not by works... So.... What is the problem? What is your issue with saying faith alone when that's biblical truth?

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That's not justification by grace through faith alone. There is a running debate among Calvanists about if someone could know Jesus as Savior and never know him as Lord. Alone simple means apart from anything, even though it was initially apart from the sacraments or any religious institution. Inextricably linked to the priesthood of all believers, that has absolutely nothing to do with what James is talking about. I don't have a problem, I know exactly what is meant by those terms but I asked the question, what works is the author talking about. Something you guys never do.

Guojing said:

So if you believe that Justification + Sanctification = Salvation,

And you seem to also believe that Faith = Justification, but sanctification is shown by works, when you stated that If you fail to bear fruit you are not saved.

Does it mean you are also believing that Faith + Works = Salvation?

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No, I believe that sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit and the manifestation of that work is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. In the parables of the soils the only soils to be saved are the ones that bear fruit. Now you obviously want to chase this in circles, must be great sport for you. Why can't you guys ever answer a simple question, what works is James talking about?

DM25 said:

Nope. That is assumption made by man and it's wrong. That's adding onto scripture and making up in your mind what work they are talking about. The gospel message is not supposed to confuse people. When God says don't work, he means it. He doesn't want anyone to perish thinking their works partly justify them, regardless of what kind of work it is. Works is works, plain and simple. And faith is faith.

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Not true.

Paul says,
"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith," (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

"...and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power"
(2 Thessalonians 1:11).

James 2:18 says,
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

As for James writing to the 12 tribes of Israel:

Paul says,

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).

@DM25

You seem to have a problem with works for salvation after being saved by God's grace through faith. Yet, Jesus taught it. Did ever read Luke 10:25-28? How about Matthew 19:17-19? What about Matthew 25:23, and Matthew 25:30? Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (See Titus 1:16). The author of Hebrews essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Also, what is the alternative to doing good works? Would that not be sin? Can a Christian commit grievous sin and still be saved? That is the alternative to doing good works. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. There are many commands in the New Testament by Jesus Christ. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Paul said if anyone does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Jason0047 said:

Not true.

Paul says,
"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith," (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

"...and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power"
(2 Thessalonians 1:11).

James 2:18 says,
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

As for James writing to the 12 tribes of Israel:

Paul says,

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).

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What are the works James is talking about Jason and please spare me the quote mining.

mark kennedy said:

No, I believe that sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit and the manifestation of that work is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. In the parables of the soils the only soils to be saved are the ones that bear fruit. Now you obviously want to chase this in circles, must be great sport for you. Why can't you guys ever answer a simple question, what works is James talking about?

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So if sanctification is all due to the work of the Holy Spirit, and not the Christian themselves, how can this "If you fail to bear fruit you are not saved." ever happen to any Christian?

Unless you are saying the Holy Spirit can actually fail in what he is doing in the Christian life, which I don't think is what you are saying?

And I am just trying to really understand what is on your mind, which once you participate in enough Internet debates, you will realized its more difficult than it seems.

mark kennedy said:

What are the works James is talking about Jason and please spare me the quote mining.

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First, quoting a list of verses that say the same thing on a particular topic is not quoting verses out of context (i.e. quote mining) as you suggest. Quoting a list of verses is not wrong. For have you never agreed with a list of Scripture verses before? Anyways, if you believe I quoted the verses out of context, then you need to show why that is so. I am not going to do your own work. If "work of faith" does not mean "work of faith" then prove it using the context and the rest of the Bible. I just read and believe the Bible at face value. Granted, I do realize there are rare cases where words may not always mean what they say at face value in the Bible. Sometimes the Bible uses metaphors. So if this is one of those cases, please prove your case with the Bible.

Second, James is referring to "works of faith" (that follow God's grace through a belief in the Lord).
This is evident when James quotes the works of faith of Abraham and Rahab.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (James 2:21).

"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (James 2:25).

We are justified by works of faith and not by a faith (belief) alone.

'Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). So a belief alone without works of faith is like the faith of demons.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

This means that if there is no works, then a person's faith is not genuine.

James is saying all this as a part of getting his readers to not show respect of persons among the brethren. For they were wrongfully giving favor to the rich brethren and not showing favor to the poor brethren. They were not loving their brother (Which would be "works of faith").

mark kennedy said:

What are the works James is talking about Jason and please spare me the quote mining.

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To give you a real world example:

If Rick said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Rick believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

Guojing said:

So if sanctification is all due to the work of the Holy Spirit, and not the Christian themselves, how can this "If you fail to bear fruit you are not saved." ever happen to any Christian?

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It can't, the gospel is simple, you hear the message, believe and receive the Holy Spirit of promise. (Eph. 1:13,14)

Unless you are saying the Holy Spirit can actually fail in what he is doing in the Christian life, which I don't think is what you are saying?

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If you are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit you are not saved, if you are you will bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It's as simple as that.

And I am just trying to really understand what is on your mind, which once you participate in enough Internet debates, you will realized its more difficult than it seems.

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That's because the conversations go in circles around the subject matter, and the gospel is far too often completely absent.

mark kennedy said:

It can't, the gospel is simple, you hear the message, believe and receive the Holy Spirit of promise. (Eph. 1:13,14)

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Right, if our Sanctification was kind of like an autopilot for a plane (with our salvation being secured), then why do we have such verses in the Bible telling us to endure to the end to be saved, or to overcome to eat the tree of life, or to keep ourselves in the love of God, be faithful unto death to obtain the crown of life, etc.?

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

mark kennedy said:

It can't, the gospel is simple, you hear the message, believe and receive the Holy Spirit of promise. (Eph. 1:13,14)

If you are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit you are not saved, if you are you will bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It's as simple as that.

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Okay, in that case, then I am glad you also believe that justification is by faith only. Once you are justified, the Holy Spirit comes and seals you such that you are permanently saved.

And because the Holy Spirit also sanctifies you, you will always bear fruit. Even if other people may not be able to see those fruit, the Holy Spirit can see.

Guojing said:

Okay, in that case, then I am glad you also believe that justification is by faith only. Once you are justified, the Holy Spirit comes and seals you such that you are permanently saved.

And because the Holy Spirit also sanctifies you, you will always bear fruit. Even if other people may not be able to see those fruit, the Holy Spirit can see.

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Exactly, when you are born of the Holy Spirit you receive a new nature, described as a seed (the word of God) early on. What kind of a salvation would not result in loving God and his people? Sometimes this manifestation of the Holy Spirit can be referred to as works, which is fine if you can take it in context. James is talking to Jewish believers who, I get the distinct impression, have been Christians for years, maybe decades. They are mistreating the poor James attributes this to them not fulfilling the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself. He goes so far as to ask, is this even saving faith, which is actually a pretty good question. Paul deals with the same thing in 1 Cor. 11

The Lord's Supper was connected to a private fellowship meal, in attendance would have been the poor, most likely slaves. They would eat in front of them and gorge themselves, they would drink until they were drunk, sending these people home hungry and humiliated. He is dealing with the exact same thing James is and he makes this disturbing statement:

Notice it's the exact same problem and both of them have the same dire warnings, believers who act like this will face judgment, if this is saving faith at all. Bear in mind there was a strict cast system in these societies, fellowship with the poor would be frowned upon at best.

This is so very different in content and focus where Paul is discussing the doctrine of justification by grace through faith apart from works in Eph. 2. I could go on but that's the gist of it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Jason0047 said:

Right, if our Sanctification was kind of like an autopilot for a plane (with our salvation being secured), then why do we have such verses in the Bible telling us to endure to the end to be saved, or to overcome to eat the tree of life, or to keep ourselves in the love of God, be faithful unto death to obtain the crown of life, etc.?

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

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Again with the quote mining, would it be too much to ask you to stop and do an exposition every once in a while?

DM25 said:

Nope. That is assumption made by man and it's wrong. That's adding onto scripture and making up in your mind what work they are talking about. The gospel message is not supposed to confuse people. When God says don't work, he means it. He doesn't want anyone to perish thinking their works partly justify them, regardless of what kind of work it is. Works is works, plain and simple. And faith is faith.

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How can nothing but scripture add to scripture?