The missing link that explains faith vs. faith plus works

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I may be wrong, but I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

Danielwright2311 · May 27, 2019

What should concern us is if we go to hell, or not.

Alithis · May 27, 2019

Gideons300 said:
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I may be wrong, but I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

The error is in thinking that faith is a "thing" you have.
But it is not.
It is an action you take based upon what you truly believe.
Because a person believes- they act in obedience.
Which changes the course and then destination.
A person who says they believe but does not take obedient action (have faith) can never be saved untill they do.
Because disobedience is rebellion and sin.

~Zao~ · May 27, 2019

There's no doubt in my mind that there is the act (work) of yielding the will to God. Yielding brings light to yield further to and from that is the product of growth, repeated daily as will is yielded to God.
But as the Op points out there are those that think simple assent to God be deemed a work. ....
Otoh there are those that think that physical work is what’s needed ....
and not the battle of the mind where surrender is the reasonable service to be won to the mind of Christ.

Alithis · May 27, 2019

LoreneDD said:
There's no doubt in my mind that there is the act (work) of yielding the will to God. Yielding brings light to yield further to and from that is the product of growth, repeated daily as will is yielded to God.
But as the Op points out there are those that think simple assent to God be deemed a work. ....
Otoh there are those that think that physical work is what’s needed ....
and not the battle of the mind where surrender is the reasonable service to be won to the mind of Christ.

The latter of your post ...do you not think this results in outward action.
I know in my life it certainly does.

~Zao~ · May 27, 2019

Alithis said:
The latter of your post ...do you not think this results in outward action.
I know in my life it certainly does.

' the battle of the mind where surrender is the reasonable service to be won to the mind of Christ.’
It results in obedience to that which God needs from each of His children. That’s that only way that He gets His will accomplished. It can’t be thru preconceived ideas because anyone can be a puppet. But that’s not what He is looking for.

Carl Emerson · May 27, 2019

Alithis said:
The error is in thinking that faith is a "thing" you have.
But it is not.
It is an action you take based upon what you truly believe.
Because a person believes- they act in obedience.
Which changes the course and then destination.
A person who says they believe but does not take obedient action (have faith) can never be saved untill they do.
Because disobedience is rebellion and sin.

Alithis said:
It is an action you take based upon what you truly believe.

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ - would it be better to say that it is an action you take based on what you have truely HEARD ???

~Zao~ · May 27, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ - would it be better to say that it is an action you take based on what you have truely HEARD ???

That’s what I was wondering in regards to healing. Faith is produced from hearing due to believing. Believing is receiving from Him. Which is in effect being healed of darkness and brought into the light.

~Zao~ · May 27, 2019

Alithis said:
The error is in thinking that faith is a "thing" you have.
But it is not.
It is an action you take based upon what you truly believe.
Because a person believes- they act in obedience.
Which changes the course and then destination.
A person who says they believe but does not take obedient action (have faith) can never be saved untill they do.
Because disobedience is rebellion and sin.

First they should be practised in discernment to assure that they have truth behind their convictions or they’re just acting (working) from a false premise. Hearing or prompting from God that’s in line with scripture is a more sure action. In fact that’s the only thing that’s capable of producing the effect of new life (etc) to another because it is a product of the Holy Spirit and not of self.

Carl Emerson · May 27, 2019

LoreneDD said:
That’s what I was wondering in regards to healing. Faith is produced from hearing due to believing. Believing is receiving from Him. Which is in effect being healed of darkness and brought into the light.

Well for me the most astonishing healings I have witnessed have all been associated with Him speaking directly before the event.

Not me · May 27, 2019

Gideons300 said:
I have been a member here on and off for 12 years and during that time, I have seen countless debates as to whether we are saved by faith alone or whether there is a need for works to be produced to verify that our faith was true faith. And in that time, I may be wrong, but I suspect not one person has been swayed to believe the other's point of view.

Each side has their pet scriptures, and staunchly ignore those of the other side. From a casual viewpoint, it seems the scriptures are contradicting one another, which is impossible. Should this not concern us at least a little bit?

I have my own views on the matter but in truth they are not found in either camp. My point in this post is not to delve into the debate again, but to ask a question I believe is far more significant.

Think for a minute. The debate of faith or faith plus works errs in this regard. If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived. Is it any wonder so many have grabbed onto the faith alone tenant? Because if we have to produce fruit to prove we have faith..... well, we are in deep doo-doo.

Those who say faith must be accompanied by works cannot help but be looked at as sliding backwards into self effort, and this legalism. And yet those scriptures that faith must be accompanied by works cannot be ignored. They are plainly there.

This conflict forces us to assume either Paul or James were in error, and one had a "greater" revelation than the other. But think for a minute. If this were true, then the word of God is not totally true, and once that bridge is crossed, and we admit the Word of God has errors, then it is back on our shoulders to decide what is true and what is not. And that leads us right back to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There must be a way to rectify this apparent contradiction.... and glory to God, there is!

Stay tuned for part two. I make this promise to you. If you will receive it, your walk with the Lord will be transformed.... and so will you!

blessings,

Gideon

Your mean!!!!!

How long do we to wait for part two? Lol

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Kenny'sID · May 27, 2019

Gideons300 said:
If we have to work, it is no more faith. Yet if works do not accompany our faith, we are deceived.

Actually the works show there is faith, or is faith in action. It's like, I have a car, and as it sits there and does nothing we can claim what a great thing is is all day long, while in reality, it's worthless until we start it up and put it to work getting us from point A to B. It's actually so elementary, I'm a little embarrassed to have to explain such a thing, but that is exactly what bizarre doctrine causes, people to miss the obvious.

This has been dealt with in the following scripture, and it makes things very clear. However, the argument will remain/never be settled, as long as those who do not want to do anything continue to try to confuse the issue....end of story.

James 2:14-17 (NKJV)

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Yet there are those who will still try to tell us, we need not feed and cloth those people because salvation is unconditional but just as this, as well as the Sheep/Goats scripture says clearly, we do have to do those things.

There is nothing wrong with the bibles clarity on this, there is only something wrong with people.

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

Not me said:
Your mean!!!!!

How long do we to wait for part two? Lol

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Hello, my dear friend. I pray this helps.....

I will not draw this out for increased drama. LOL.

Let me give a bit of personal background, however, to set the stage. I am one of those oldies and have walked with the Lord, if you can call it that, (stumbled is a far more accurate term) for almost 50 years. For the first 38 years, I was the poster boy for Romans 7. I wanted more then anything to defeat sin in my life, to love others as I loved myself, and above all, to truly love the Lord with ALL of my heart, mind, soul and strength.

But in the end, I found the things ai truly wanted to do... to be... were fleeting mirages, and self still ruled the roost.

But 12 years ago, God visited me. Yes, face to face.... well, more like face to back of neck. And He showed me what I had been missing. Without it, failure was guaranteed, but with it? Ah.... with it, I found that for even a weak wretch like me, addicted to inappropriate content and sexual lust, success was not only offered. It was guaranteed!

I have shared my testimony of that miraculous night several times over the years, but right now, it is far more important to discover the key piece we have been missing.

Works..... what James termed 'fruits'..... have been promised to us. They are not something we do, but something that our amazing God causes us to produce.

Does He make us robots, as some have asked me? No way. We are active participants. And yet, something has prevented this from happening, even if we long for fruits to be produced in us.

That is coming up in part three. What will be shared there has been hidden from our understanding for 1900 years save a few glorious exceptions, yet have been plainly stated in scripture. There is no need to weave various scriptures into some "new" doctrine, where people yell "heretic!", LOL.

So if your heart is hungry for an intimate relationship with Jesus Himself, and you long to stop bringing dishonor to Him with the life you have been living, hang in there. It is about to get amazing.

Blessings,

Gideon

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Actually the works show there is faith, or is faith in action. It's like, I have a car, and as it sits there and does nothing we can claim what a great thing is is all day long, while in reality, it's worthless until we start it up and put it to work getting us from point A to B. It's actually so elementary, I'm a little embarrassed to have to explain such a thing, but that is exactly what bizarre doctrine causes, people to miss the obvious.

This has been dealt with in the following scripture, and it makes things very clear. However, the argument will remain/never be settled, as long as those who do not want to do anything continue to try to confuse the issue....end of story.

James 2:14-17 (NKJV)

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Yet there are those who will still try to tell us, we need not feed and cloth those people because salvation is unconditional but just as this, as well as the Sheep/Goats scripture says clearly, we do have to do those things.

There is nothing wrong with the bibles clarity on this, there is only something wrong with people.

Kenny, you sre still looking at it as something we must DO.

Thus we are back to conditional salvation, and we then have to continually do things. There is no peace here, no rest. And the devil will barrage us with accusations that we are not doing enough. Trust me, this was how I walked those 38 years of failure.

The 'works' James speaks of are fruits of the Spirit that verify that the Spirit is inside us. Does an apple tree worry it will not produce apples? Not at all. It simply does what comes naturally.

Fruits.... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness , gentleness, meekness, self control..... these will bring about the outer actions in a myriad of ways. But if we think that just because we are saved, we now have to choose to do good and choose not to do evil, how is that different from the old covenant? Was that not the exact same case then?

The law tells us "Do this and you will live." And the majority of those espousing the faith plus works argument are saying the exact same thing. We are saved, forgiven, and now we must show God how much we appreciate it by doing good works.

The problem with this is our old self nature is..... well.... selfish, LOL.

But the new covenant is different. Here the premise has flipped. It is now:

"Live and you SHALL do."

Here we produce fruits (works) simply by abiding in Him, and thus growing up into Him in all things. It is never a struggle, nor do we ever fear we are not doing enough.

Why? Simple. We enter His rest, abiding in Him, and He CAUSES us to bear much fruit.

And it is at this specific point where we have been blinded. We have not been abiding in Him. Saved perhaps, but not safe. And what is the proof of such a bold statement? Is it not the promise that if we abide in Him, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh?

Thus, if sin and self rule still are active in our lives, we are not abiding, and the process of fruit bearing (works) is at a road block.

So what is the solution? Remove the road block to abiding.
Tomorrow I hope to share exactly how even the weakest among us can truly abide in Him, grow up into Him in all things, and bear the fruits the God assures us WILL produce inside us.

Blessings, dear friend,

Gids

bmjackson · May 27, 2019

Hi Gids, waiting with bated breath as it is sounding like my own experience.

Gideons300 · May 27, 2019

bmjackson said:
Hi Gids, waiting with bated breath as it is sounding like my own experience.

I really wish I could continue tonight. However, it is late and work calls tomorrow. I pray what I have been given to share dovetailed perfectly into your own walk with the lord.

I can say this as a guarantee however. If someone is truly desirous of bearing fruits, of gaining the victory over the world, the flesh and the devil, I do not care where they have been, or how badly they have fallen, or even how long they have been fruitless, if they will embrace the truth I have been given the honor of sharing, their very lives will be turned upside down in the most wonderful way possible.

Thank you for sharing.

Gideon

Kenny'sID · May 27, 2019

Gideons300 said:
Kenny, you sre still looking at it as something we must DO.

Thus we are back to conditional salvation, and we then have to continually do things. There is no peace here, no rest.

Absolutely, because it is something we must do. We must continually have faith and since faith is dead without works, we must continually have works.

I have peace when I know I'm doing as Christs said to do. In the Sheep and Goats scripture he minces no words, we do it or go to Hell. I think the point he is making there is to get rid of all the silly arguing and confusion brought on by OSAS for example. He mentioned nothing of a peace, conditional or unconditional, nor anything that can leave the reader confused unless they want to be, and even then, they have to bring that confusion with them/inject it into the scripture and heaven knows they will try, but the scripture itself speaks no confusion at all, only men do that.

Just as in the following very simple and very clear scripture, he once again stated "doing" is an absolute must to show faith, and salvation is absolutely conditional upon us doing/being good.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Again, no confusion there, like unconditional salvation or Well, if you have one you will have the other, only this is what you have to do.

And I'm not saying you do, but some actually claim we can do evil, and not do good and still go to heaven even after reading that. That is what they refer to as unconditional. Then there is, If we have faith we will be good (but we don't have to be good, and can still do evil) how confusing is that? That only leaves things open to do just as the devil wants us to do, think we can do evil/not do good and still make it to heaven, because it's unconditional. My point here is, we need to toss all the "deep" junk that confuses by design and get down to what is and always has been real and the simple basic truth.

I recall how it always was when I grew up, and before all this higher knowledge/confusion was introduced it was all so simple. The link is a song by Grand Funk Railroad back in a time before all that confusion, as I recall anyway. Even the children at the beginning knew what was required, they put it so simply. The song itself depicts the world fallen man must endure, where we can have a certain amount of peace in God/Christ, but will never have perfect peace until this age goes by and we endure till the end.

Alithis · May 28, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ - would it be better to say that it is an action you take based on what you have truely HEARD ???

After hearing ..all have the choice to believe
Or not..

~Zao~ · May 28, 2019

James 1:21-27
21 rid yourselves of all sordidness and rank growth of wickedness, and welcome with meekness the implanted word that has the power to save your souls.
22 be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves.
23 if any are hearers of the word and not doers, they are like those who look at themselves in a mirror;
24 they look at themselves and, on going away, immediately forget what they were like.
25 those who look into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and persevere, being not hearers who forget but doers who act—they will be blessed in their doing.
26 If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless.
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Lost4words · May 28, 2019

Faith, automatically brings good works.

Its like sitting in the sun. The after effect is sunburn!

The missing link that explains faith vs. faith plus works

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