What about the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory?

Eloy Craft said:

If anyone has unforgiven sin they will be in hell not Purgatory.
In Purgatory all sins have been forgiven.

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au contraire. In Purgatory payment for all temporal sins is extracted. For traditional Catholics the method of payment in Purgatory is very much like the torment and suffering of hell.

God, in Catholic theology, forgives all sins of Catholics which have been confessed through a priest and which are not temporal in nature. If a Catholic commits a mortal sin such as missing weekly mass (yes, that is a mortal sin in Catholicism) without confessing it to a priest he will then be sent to hell. God, in Catholicism sometimes is unwilling to forgive some sins and seems to be incapable of forgiving others such as temporal sins.

bbbbbbb said:

Catholicism sometimes is unwilling to forgive some sins and seems to be incapable of forgiving others such as temporal sins.

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There are no sins that we can commit that God is unwilling or incapable of forgiving except final impenitence. You have learned anti-catholicism not catholicism.

Eloy Craft said:

There are no sins that we can commit that God is unwilling or incapable of forgiving except final impenitence. You have learned anti-catholicism not catholicism.

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Final impenitence is the failure to properly confess one's sins to a Catholic priest in order to receive absolution. There is no doubt whatsoever that the place called Purgatory is where a Catholic's temporal sins are purged (hence the name).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

bbbbbbb said:

Final impenitence is the failure to properly confess one's sins to a Catholic priest in order to receive absolution. There is no doubt whatsoever that the place called Purgatory is where a Catholic's temporal sins are purged (hence the name).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

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I'm not understanding your point.

Eloy Craft said:

In Purgatory all sins have been forgiven.

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Not so, Eloy.

Purgatory, according to the doctrine, is for punishing unforgiven minor sins (called "venial") and also already-forgiven serious sins (called "mortal").

So the only people who pass into hell without Purgatory are people who have unforgiven mortal sins "on their account."

Eloy Craft said:

There are no sins that we can commit that God is unwilling or incapable of forgiving except final impenitence. You have learned anti-catholicism not catholicism.

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Still wrong. God is willing to forgive, yes, but the church which gave us Purgatory conceived of it as extracting a punishment because you committed sin in the first place.

As for the apparent contradiction you see, you are supposed to understand that justice demands some payment from you for having transgressed, even if the ETERNAL consequence of those sins has been remitted by God. You will wind up in Heaven, if you first are in Purgatory.

Of course, we here who are explaining this to you do not believe in Purgatory or the rationale behind it; we are just explaining how the church which invented Purgatory defined it. Most of its own members do not realize what it is all about, even when they set forth to defend it to people they think are anti-Catholics.

bbbbbbb said:

Final impenitence is the failure to properly confess one's sins to a Catholic priest in order to receive absolution. There is no doubt whatsoever that the place called Purgatory is where a Catholic's temporal sins are purged (hence the name).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

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My point is that Purgatory was created by the Catholic Church to provide a means by which God can accept Catholics into heaven in a sinless state, having paid for all of their temporal sins which God was either incapable of or unwilling to forgive. God cannot or will not pay for those sins. The sinner himself must pay for them in Purgatory.

bbbbbbb said:

My point is that Purgatory was created by the Catholic Church to provide a means by which God can accept Catholics into heaven in a sinless state, having paid for all of their temporal sins which God was either incapable of or unwilling to forgive. God cannot or will not pay for those sins. The sinner himself must pay for them in Purgatory.

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That doesn't make sense to me, frankly. It really is more a strange, Medieval, sense of justice that underlies the notion. God through Christ has provided a way for us to be saved, but there still is a price to be paid for transgressing in the first place. This means, if true, that the person who has been a terrible sinner all his life but repents on his deathbed will not pass into the afterlife on exactly the same terms as Mother Teresa, but both will be in heaven ultimately, thanks to the Cross.

crossnote said:

I have a hard time believing in purgatory as it...

1. Smacks similarities to a soft form of reincarnation (hence salvation by works).

2. Such Scriptures as ...
1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Colossians 3:4 (KJV) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

3. It is not safe to derive our beliefs from the experiences of others (e.g. Near Death Experiences over Scripture).

4. Flies in the face of Christ's atonement...Galatians 2:21 (NASB) "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

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Amen! - Purgatory

Dan, the very first line in that article is completely wrong. Purgatory--whatever else any of us thinks about the subject--is not for forgiveness of sins, a second chance (hence the reference earlier to reincarnation, I assume), or anything else like that. It is about punishment for having sinned, plus some presumed purification in preparation for those people entering heaven sooner or later.

Albion said:

That doesn't make sense to me, frankly. It really is more a strange, Medieval, sense of justice that underlies the notion. God through Christ has provided a way for us to be saved, but there still is a price to be paid for transgressing in the first place. This means, if true, that the person who has been a terrible sinner all his life but repents on his deathbed will not pass into the afterlife on exactly the same terms as Mother Teresa, but both will be in heaven ultimately, thanks to the Cross.

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However, we need to deal with passages such as that of the woman caught in the very act of adultery (John 8:2-11). Jesus completely forgave the woman and did not require any form of punishment for her very gross sin. His only request (or commandment, if you will) was to "go and sin no more". That seems to be, at the least, extreme forgiveness.

Some say that this concept of forgiveness is unique to the New Testament. It is not. The Old Testament is replete with examples of complete forgiveness of very extreme sin. Psalm 103 is truly amazing.

Albion said:

Dan, the very first line in that article is completely wrong. Purgatory--whatever else any of us thinks about the subject--is not for forgiveness of sins, a second chance (hence the reference earlier to reincarnation, I assume), or anything else like that. It is about punishment for having sinned, plus some presumed purification in preparation for those people entering heaven sooner or later.

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Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement for sin on the cross. The blood of Christ is sufficient and complete to purify us from all sin. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28; Ephesians 1:7; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5)

Danthemailman said:

Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement for sin on the cross

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No it doesn't.

Albion said:

That doesn't make sense to me, frankly. It really is more a strange, Medieval, sense of justice that underlies the notion. God through Christ has provided a way for us to be saved, but there still is a price to be paid for transgressing in the first place.

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Do you believe that God does not punish unjust actions that are committed by Christians?

If you take the verses below, for example, what exactly is it that you think you are going to receive, for the evil that you have done in your body?

2 Corinthians 5:1–21
5 For we know that if kthe tent that is lour earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, ma house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent nwe groan, longing to oput on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on1 we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal pmay be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, qwho has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always of good courage. We know that rwhile we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for swe walk by faith, not tby sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we uwould rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to vplease him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, xso that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Danthemailman said:

Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement for sin on the cross. The blood of Christ is sufficient and complete to purify us from all sin. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28; Ephesians 1:7; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5)

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If you are purified from all sin why do you continue to sin? Doesn't sound very pure to me, my brother in Christ.

Shimokita said:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, xso that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

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There is nothing about this that necessitates a belief in a Purgatory, however.

Albion said:

There is nothing about this that necessitates a belief in a Purgatory, however.

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True. One of the objections appears to be something along the lines of "Purgatory is offensive because Jesus paid it all so that we don't have to". I think the verse and several others dispels the notion that God does not punish Christians.

For those who are to enter heaven a purging is needed...this is biblical.

People get soooooo hung up on the name purgatory. The word ain't in the bible....no kidding.

Albion said:

There is nothing about this that necessitates a belief in a Purgatory, however.

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there you go again getting hung up on the word again!!!

bbbbbbb said:

However, we need to deal with passages such as that of the woman caught in the very act of adultery (John 8:2-11). Jesus completely forgave the woman and did not require any form of punishment for her very gross sin. His only request (or commandment, if you will) was to "go and sin no more". That seems to be, at the least, extreme forgiveness.

Some say that this concept of forgiveness is unique to the New Testament. It is not. The Old Testament is replete with examples of complete forgiveness of very extreme sin. Psalm 103 is truly amazing.

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This post truly shows the lack of understanding. Maybe you were told this by your catholic friends? Maybe your teacher told you this? Whoever connected this passage with purgatory needs a lesson or 2.

concretecamper said:

there you go again getting hung up on the word again!!!

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I USED the word, that's all. And that was because Purgatory is the topic here.

Check out the title of this thread if you are in doubt.