How the anti-abortion movement started

chevyontheriver

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I didn't say I thought you hated me.

The people you have met in the pro-life cause may well have been very sincere and still not aware they were being used as pawns in a segregationist ploy.

According to the article the segregationists -used- these people to bulk up the vote counts for the Republican party's segregationist ambitions. Just because you didn't know you were being used doesn't mean you weren't being used. Your lived history may appear to you differently because you didn't know you were being used.

That is the advantage of learning new things.
I'm not at all sure these 'new things' are so. After being pushed out of the Democratic Party I took up with the other guys, after being denied a spot as a party delegate with the Democrats because I was pro-life (and every other pro-life person similarly excluded). The Republicans had no such litmus tests and I served briefly on the state central committee. We didn't have any segregationist agendas. You can say that there was some sort of super-secret agenda, and the dupes were being used, but I think it's a bit laughable to go there.

The real history of the pro-life movement is one where Catholics were the standard bearers and Protestants were suspiciously aloof from such a Catholic undertaking. Then slowly, following Francis Schaeffer, a trickle of Protestants started showing up. At the same time the hard left within the Democratic Party started marginalizing pro-life members (mostly Catholics) of their own party, shutting them out of any meaningful role. Today, Democratic Party orthodoxy demands support for abortion. No wonder the other party benefited from Catholics who were once almost exclusively Democrats. That's the real tragedy. We could have had huge progress on the environment and so many other issues of traditional Democratic Party concerns had the hard left within the Party not had the fanatical desire to drive out the pro-life members. But that's a story that isn't told in your article. Instead there is the claim that it was all a ruse by some sort of former Dixiecrats to support segregation.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The way I get it, Catholics stood alone the whole time. Protestants finally caught on but Catholics have been involved since the issue was still contraception. I've always respected their consistency.
Thanks.

But only sort of. The Comstock laws banning contraceptives were a totally Protestant thing from back in the day where EVERY Protestant denomination opposed contraception. There were not enough poor immigrant Catholics in the country to have such influence. Catholics opposed contraception too, but didn't have even an iota of political power when contraception was banned. Protestants abandoned their earlier position on contraception starting in 1930 with those trend-setting Episcopalians.
 
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Pommer

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Just because you didn't know you were being used doesn't mean you weren't being used. Your lived history may appear to you differently because you didn't know you were being used.

I can agree with this insofar as the body politic demands we agree to be “used” by various factions, coming from various angles, (race, National-identity, religion etc.).
Historically our nation swings wildly from temperance to hedonism and back again within a century, (and, nearly all the time), comes about by action of small minorities of the general population.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Then we are predestined and have no actual choices because...by the definition of God...we are unable to make Him wrong. Whatever He sees 'in advance' is impossible to do differently.
Not so, That is not what outside of time means.
 
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Carl Emerson

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And so, how might I choose “differently”?
If I cannot ever hope to “surprise” God, then how the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love. I tell if I truly have agency in my own experience of life?
Well you do otherwise the whole concept of God being a just judge goes out the window.

There is plenty of scriptural evidence supporting the fact of God delighting in His own...
For example "The LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love."
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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Did your gall bladder have arms, legs, part of a torso and half a face?
My gall bladder was more important to me, than some strangers fetus. But it had to go. So it went.
 
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USincognito

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I recommend that you start with some source more credible than Politico.
Bahahahahah!

Politico is one of the most credible news sources dedicated to political reporting. It's one thing to engage in a genetic fallacy, it's another to be so laughably wrong while doing so.
 
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zephcom

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I'm not at all sure these 'new things' are so. After being pushed out of the Democratic Party I took up with the other guys, after being denied a spot as a party delegate with the Democrats because I was pro-life (and every other pro-life person similarly excluded). The Republicans had no such litmus tests and I served briefly on the state central committee. We didn't have any segregationist agendas. You can say that there was some sort of super-secret agenda, and the dupes were being used, but I think it's a bit laughable to go there.

The real history of the pro-life movement is one where Catholics were the standard bearers and Protestants were suspiciously aloof from such a Catholic undertaking. Then slowly, following Francis Schaeffer, a trickle of Protestants started showing up. At the same time the hard left within the Democratic Party started marginalizing pro-life members (mostly Catholics) of their own party, shutting them out of any meaningful role. Today, Democratic Party orthodoxy demands support for abortion. No wonder the other party benefited from Catholics who were once almost exclusively Democrats. That's the real tragedy. We could have had huge progress on the environment and so many other issues of traditional Democratic Party concerns had the hard left within the Party not had the fanatical desire to drive out the pro-life members. But that's a story that isn't told in your article. Instead there is the claim that it was all a ruse by some sort of former Dixiecrats to support segregation.

I can believe the Democrats didn't select pro-life people to be delegates. They would naturally select people who supported their platform. I can, in light of the article I posted, believe the Republicans didn't have such a litmus test. After all they were actively 'playing nice' to the Christian Right in order to get their votes.

I'm going post another article. This one is from NBC:

GOP and Dem Intern Class Photos Show Diversity Differences

It is from 2016. It shows group pictures of the interns selected by house representatives from the two parties.

The Democrats may not be the sharpest pencils in the box. In fact, I'm almost certain they aren't. You felt driven out of the party because they wouldn't embrace the one issue you feel strongly about. And you are right the article in the OP didn't address that.

But addressing that was not why the article was written. It was written to show that the Republicans did what the Democrats didn't do...pander to you and make you think they cared about your issue when they really didn't.

What I would like is that you don't just accept the evidence in the articles I've posted as gospel but at least accept they -could- be true. If they are true, and pro-lifers were just used by the segregationist to get the votes needed then the pro-lifers 1) need to know that and 2) need to decide how they are going move into the future because most of the people they are going force into being born are going to have to live in the segregationist world they helped to create.

I can't convince you to believe this is true. I can only show you the possibility that it is true. The task you and others have is to do independent research from all sides of the political world, read the books written about the issue from all sides.

It isn't a good feeling finding out one has been deceived. I know, I've been down the same path I'm asking you to go down.
 
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zephcom

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Not so, That is not what outside of time means.
Religionists like to think they are circumventing logic by making up phrases they think are mysterious and inscrutable.

But logic still applies in our lives. And it is logic which makes the idea that God knows what we will do and that we have freedom to choose a non-starter. Christians particularly have a massive problem with this issue because they insist that each person HAS to decide to be 'saved' or they are forever lost while their God, by definition has to be able to know everything.

In order to keep their religion afloat they have to reconcile how an individual can truly choose and their God know before hand what they have chosen. Your 'outside of time' is one attempt to reconcile that issue. It fails, however, because Christianity insists that God is active 'inside of time' and carries that information with Him.

And as mere humans, we simply do not have the ability to make Him wrong. And that means while we may perceive that we have free will, in reality we don't. We can only do what God knows we will do.

And that destroys the Christian concept that we can choose or not choose to be 'saved'. It is the Achilles Heel of modern Christianity. And the apologists will make up all sorts of word spaghetti in order to make that problem go away.
 
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Fantine

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New York had a Right to Life party in the 70s and 80s. They launched their own candidates and would endorse candidates from other parties if they were 100% opposed to abortion in any and all circumstances, no matter how dire. When I asked a member once what a right to light endorsement meant in races where the winner never had to make a vote on abortion she told me they had to do it in case that person ran for a different office someday. They sometimes ran their own candidates for Governor and President, often mothers with eight children. When they would make their position statements they would answer questions about nuclear disarmament with the answer of "I oppose abortion in all circumstances." What an insult! Anyone running for president has to consider all the issues. Despite this craziness, Right to Life had more voters then Libertarians or the Liberal Party.
 
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yougottabekidding

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My gall bladder was more important to me, than some strangers fetus. But it had to go. So it went.

That is perhaps the coldest, most thoughtless thing I have ever read.
 
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Pommer

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Well you do otherwise the whole concept of God being a just judge goes out the window.

There is plenty of scriptural evidence supporting the fact of God delighting in His own...
For example "The LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love."
[Please edit your quote of mine to get your additions out of it, or change your addition to another color if they’re meant to be there.]

If God knows my course, what actual “choice” have I got?
If I’ve no real “choice” then how can God Judge?
Crimes and sins both require a free-agent, able to change their destinies by making decisions and taking actions that reflect those decisions.

What you’ve just posted as your argument is further proof that my query is correct!

The LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

To me it says, “hey, look, you might as well trust in the LORD, because He’s seen ALL that you’ve done (or ever will do)...you really don’t have a choice but to trust Him!”
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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That is perhaps the coldest, most thoughtless thing I have ever read.
No colder, than someone caring about fetuses until they're born. And then go out of their way. To stop them from receiving money or help to survive this world.
 
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Carl Emerson

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[Please edit your quote of mine to get your additions out of it, or change your addition to another color if they’re meant to be there.]

If God knows my course, what actual “choice” have I got?
If I’ve no real “choice” then how can God Judge?
Crimes and sins both require a free-agent, able to change their destinies by making decisions and taking actions that reflect those decisions.

What you’ve just posted as your argument is further proof that my query is correct!



To me it says, “hey, look, you might as well trust in the LORD, because He’s seen ALL that you’ve done (or ever will do)...you really don’t have a choice but to trust Him!”

Why is it so hard to conceptualise a God who can see future outcomes yet decides not to manipulate those outcomes.

Otherwise as you say, judgement would be a foregone conclusion.

He does however choose His chosen giving them grace to believe unto salvation, but their eternal rewards are tied to freewill decisions they make. This He does not manipulate.

I think also that logic has limitations in this realm of investigation because the pathway to salvation is a matter of heart rather than mind, being a faith entrance not a rational conclusion.

On the other hand God does tolerate us using the experimental method to investigate His existence. Ask Him with all your heart if He is real and He loves you, and you will get an answer.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Religionists like to think they are circumventing logic by making up phrases they think are mysterious and inscrutable.

Logic does not apply to the spiritual - you are trying to dig with the wrong tool.

Unless you become as a little child you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. - That required childlike faith - not reason.


But logic still applies in our lives. And it is logic which makes the idea that God knows what we will do and that we have freedom to choose a non-starter. Christians particularly have a massive problem with this issue because they insist that each person HAS to decide to be 'saved' or they are forever lost while their God, by definition has to be able to know everything.

I believe because He appeared to me face to face when I was about 8 years old.

In order to keep their religion afloat they have to reconcile how an individual can truly choose and their God know before hand what they have chosen. Your 'outside of time' is one attempt to reconcile that issue. It fails, however, because Christianity insists that God is active 'inside of time' and carries that information with Him.

Im glad I don't need to pass your test - God Chooses His own but does not force their performance. Why is it so hard to conceive of a God who sees across time but chooses not to manipulate?

And as mere humans, we simply do not have the ability to make Him wrong. And that means while we may perceive that we have free will, in reality we don't. We can only do what God knows we will do.

This is Robot talk - Moses asked passionately that He withdraw Judgement on Israel and He did...

And that destroys the Christian concept that we can choose or not choose to be 'saved'. It is the Achilles Heel of modern Christianity. And the apologists will make up all sorts of word spaghetti in order to make that problem go away.

It is a problem for those who do not believe in election but folks like myself who know that Grace unto salvation is a gift appreciate How wonderful and loving God is by gifting what we don't deserve. We will eternally thank Him for it.

Why don't you ask Him to reveal Himself to you ?
 
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Pommer

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Why is it so hard to conceptualise a God who can see future outcomes yet decides not to manipulate those outcomes.
Odd that God, the Eternal Being, deigns to dabble with us timebearing critters!

And why make a soul that lives eternally if you already know that you’re going to end up “punishing it” for not accepting the free gift of Your Only Son’s (metaphorical) Blood?
That’s a poser!
 
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Pommer

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Why is it so hard to conceptualise a God who can see future outcomes yet decides not to manipulate those outcomes.

Otherwise as you say, judgement would be a foregone conclusion.

He does however choose His chosen giving them grace to believe unto salvation, but their eternal rewards are tied to freewill decisions they make. This He does not manipulate.

I think also that logic has limitations in this realm of investigation because the pathway to salvation is a matter of heart rather than mind, being a faith entrance not a rational conclusion.

On the other hand God does tolerate us using the experimental method to investigate His existence. Ask Him with all your heart if He is real and He loves you, and you will get an answer.

BOLD: If Gods “knows” who will choose what, then you’re still stuck with the same problem. We have no true free-agency in our experience living our life and we’re stuck with what God knows.
As such, if I can accept that as “truth”, it means I am free from having to worry about “what happens to me after I die”.

I live my life as I see fit and let Eternal Beings take care of Eternal Things.

RED:”Special pleading”?
C’mon, you’re better than that!
 
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Carl Emerson

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Odd that God, the Eternal Being, deigns to dabble with us timebearing critters!

And why make a soul that lives eternally if you already know that you’re going to end up “punishing it” for not accepting the free gift of Your Only Son’s (metaphorical) Blood?
That’s a poser!
From Roman 9:

19 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it,“Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?…
 
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Carl Emerson

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BOLD: If Gods “knows” who will choose what, then you’re still stuck with the same problem. We have no true free-agency in our experience living our life and we’re stuck with what God knows.
As such, if I can accept that as “truth”, it means I am free from having to worry about “what happens to me after I die”.

I live my life as I see fit and let Eternal Beings take care of Eternal Things.

RED:”Special pleading”?
C’mon, you’re better than that!
You still try to insist that God's foreknowledge precludes individual free will...

This is clearly not so...

There is an old saying "you make your bed... you lie in it..."

There is a relationship between freedom and truth...

And the red was no more than a conversational demarkation.
 
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