Tone

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Not if they are a, Christian that accepts evolution. I'm sure this has been pointed out to you before.

How would/does an athiestic evolutionist...say...MD, view a christian evolutionist who believes in the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
 
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Subduction Zone

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My guess is that Nimrod planted the initial tares.

After all, the Antichrist, who is going to demonstrate evolution to the satisfaction of academia, is going to revive the Babylonian Empire.
Mythical people cannot plant tares.
 
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Tone

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Not if they are a Christian that accepts evolution.

What about an athiest that accepts evolution? Are there any athiests who don't accept evolution?
 
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Shemjaza

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What about an athiest that accepts evolution? Are there any athiests who don't accept evolution?
Unusual, but they exist.

Typically they are people who have some kind of non-theistic religion who has a different explanation for life. (For example Raëlism).

But, there's no reason why an atheist might not just be unconvinced by the evidence due to their personal incredulity.
 
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AV1611VET

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Conversely, you can find examples of non-literalism going back much further (for example, the works of Origen of Alexandira, circa 3rd century AD).
We give Plato the credit for the Allegorical Method of Bible interpretation.
 
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Tone

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We give Plato the credit for the Allegorical Method of Bible interpretation.

Do you think that the whole wheat and tares thing deals with communication (information)?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Was Genesis not read literally before Darwin? I thought biblical criticism is post evolutionary theory?
Not true -- Biblical criticism existed before and completely independent of evolution.

Long before, in fact -- Origen of Alexandria (184-253) in his Treatise on First Principles mentions how some parts of the Bible would be quite simply absurd if interpreted literally.

For example:

Origen said:
20. Since, therefore, as will be clear to those who read, the connection taken literally is impossible, while the sense preferred is not impossible, but even the true one, it must be our object to grasp the whole meaning, which connects the account of what is literally impossible in an intelligible manner with what is not only not impossible, but also historically true, and which is allegorically understood, in respect of its not having literally occurred. For, with respect to holy Scripture, our opinion is that the whole of it has a spiritual, but not the whole a bodily meaning, because the bodily meaning is in many places proved to be impossible.
 
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Tone

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Not true -- Biblical criticism existed before and completely independent of evolution.

Long before, in fact -- Origen of Alexandria (184-253) in his Treatise on First Principles mentions how some parts of the Bible would be quite simply absurd if interpreted literally.

For example:

So what parts do you believe are literal/nonliteral?
 
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TLK Valentine

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So what parts do you believe are literal/nonliteral?

Me? As a non-Christian, I think most of it is nonliteral.

The Old Testament, for example, is, among other things, a history of the Jewish nation -- but a history written by the nation itself, not in the interest of historical accuracy, but in fortifying their status as "God's chosen people."

The New Testament? Well, let's never forget that Jesus, his followers, and every single author in the NT were (with one exception) Jewish. The Gospel writers believed that Jesus was the Messiah promised to them in their Scriptures (the OT), and carefully crafted his story -- not history -- to support their belief.

That's the reason that while some of secular history supports the Bible's various events, a great deal of it does not, and indeed, flatly contradicts it.

Now, why would the Gospel writers do this? Before you break out the worn old "why would they lie?" canard, consider:

Personally, I believe that they sincerely believed that Jesus was the messiah that their religion promised them. Those who followed and witnessed him certainly thought so. But how to express that?

These people experienced... something, but that "something" isn't easy to put into words, even though that's exactly what they felt they had to do. So they took the ultimate "you had to be there" experience and expressed it using the stories, imagery, and yes, even prophecy of the religion both they and their intended audience knew very well...

And there's the kicker: We are not the intended audience. Remember when I said most of the people involved were Jews? They're the ones who would've gotten the message -- for the rest of us, trying to read the Bible without understanding Jewish culture, history, theology, and poetry would be like watching Gone With the Wind without knowing anything about the Civil War, or the James Bond series thinking it's a documentary.

And yet, too many in the Church has done precisely that. No wonder everything gets literalzed -- it's the only way they can make sense of it... insofar as it does make sense, which isn't very far at all.
 
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Tone

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Tone

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These people experienced... something, but that "something" isn't easy to put into words

I know first hand.

They're the ones who would've gotten the message -- for the rest of us, trying to read the Bible without understanding Jewish culture, history, theology, and poetry

Yet, this message is sounding now...keeping us intrigued.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I know first hand.

If that is so, then there's no way you could possibly explain it to me and do the experience any justice.

If God is what He is supposed to be, then the experience simply cannot be properly encapsulated within human language, because human language is limited... and "God" is not.

If you tried to explain it to me, it would be like trying to play Beethoven's Fifth Symphony on a kazoo. Sure, I'd get the general idea, but would I really be getting the full experience?

Of course not -- I'd had to have been there, and I wasn't.

Yet, this message is sounding now...keeping us intrigued.

But of course -- "God" is the ultimate mystery... and who isn't intrigued by a mystery?

But think of how many mysteries where we were convinced the Butler did it... only to find out that it was actually the cook.
 
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Ophiolite

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But think of how many mysteries where we were convinced the Butler did it... only to find out that it was actually the cook.
At least we can agree it was a member of Household staff and not someone of any consequence. :)
 
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Tone

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If that is so, then there's no way you could possibly explain it to me and do the experience any justice.

Why are you a Christian?

Have you ever felt like a photosynthesizing tree...and have looked around at nature and understood that believing the Message (good news) is as natural as a plant going through the Calvin Cycle...have you ever had thoughts of hope and love and peace well up from inside you, knowing that they did not originate from the darkness that is you?

You are right,my words cannot do His Holy Breath any justice, but we do have His Words:

2 Peter 1:20-21
"20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

If God is what He is supposed to be, then the experience simply cannot be properly encapsulated within human language, because human language is limited... and "God" is not.

It is Written:

Romans 10:16-18
"16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

He Who created us gave us consciousness that we may read, write, and comprehend, so it is fitting that He has communicated to us through books.

If you tried to explain it to me, it would be like trying to play Beethoven's Fifth Symphony on a kazoo. Sure, I'd get the general idea, but would I really be getting the full experience?

All I can give is my own testimony (Why are you a Christian?) and I can pray that the Father Breathe His Holy Breath into every aspect of your being; heart,soul,will,emotions, imagination,physical body--meeting you Person to person...that He may raise you up...and Speak His Life unto you. Amen.

Of course not -- I'd had to have been there, and I wasn't.

Again it is Written:

John 6:39-40
"39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 11:23-27
"23“Your brother will rise again,” Jesus told her. 24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27“Yes, Lord,” she answered, “I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”

Revelation 1:7-8
"7Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. 8“I am the Alpha [aleph] and the Omega [tav],” says the Lord God [Yahuah], who is and was and is to come the Almighty."

He is ever-present and when you meet His Word, you are in His Presence even now. Do you believe? He is waiting for you to say "Yes".

Revelation 3:20
"20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door,I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me."

Yah bless you my friend. Shalom!
 
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TLK Valentine

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Why are you a Christian?

Have you ever felt like a photosynthesizing tree...and have looked around at nature and understood that believing the Message (good news) is as natural as a plant going through the Calvin Cycle...have you ever had thoughts of hope and love and peace well up from inside you, knowing that they did not originate from the darkness that is you?

So... in order to understand God, I would have to be a tree? :)

No, of course not -- but you just did a wonderful job using figurative language in order to help illustrate a point.

My contention is that the authors of the Bible has to do this quite a bit.

You are right,my words cannot do His Holy Breath any justice, but we do have His Words:

2 Peter 1:20-21
"20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Ok... you say we have His words, so by His, you mean God.

However, the Second Epistle of Peter was, at best, written by St. Peter, or it was, as most scholars believe, pseudepigraphical.

In either case, it was written by a mere mortal, who would've faced the same limitations of language that you or I would.

It is Written:

Romans 10:16-18
"16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

Again, this epistle was written by Paul, not God, who was also a mere mortal.

(and Paul's issues with the other apostles -- those who heard the word of Christ in the flesh -- would make for high drama... but I digress)

He Who created us gave us consciousness that we may read, write, and comprehend, so it is fitting that He has communicated to us through books.

And do those books firmly and completely encapsulate Who He is? Can He be contained by words?

I think not -- and I'd be skeptical of anyone who says otherwise.

All I can give is my own testimony (Why are you a Christian?) and I can pray that the Father Breathe His Holy Breath into every aspect of your being; heart,soul,will,emotions, imagination,physical body--meeting you Person to person...that He may raise you up...and Speak His Life unto you. Amen.

And your story is an inspiring one, and I wish you the best of luck as you continue down your path.

But your path will not be the same as mine.

Again it is Written:

John 6:39-40
"39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 11:23-27
"23“Your brother will rise again,” Jesus told her. 24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27“Yes, Lord,” she answered, “I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”

Revelation 1:7-8
"7Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. 8“I am the Alpha [aleph] and the Omega [tav],” says the Lord God [Yahuah], who is and was and is to come the Almighty."

Ah, John... remember when I said all the NT authors but one identified as Jewish? Bingo.

John's non-synoptic Gospel has always been interesting -- I keep meaning to study it in more detail.

He is ever-present and when you meet His Word, you are in His Presence even now. Do you believe? He is waiting for you to say "Yes".

Ah, ah, ah... "Word" as in Divine Logos, or "word" as in Bible?

Language can be a harsh mistress...


And I wish you all the best on your path.
 
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Tone

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So... in order to understand God, I would have to be a tree? :)

No, of course not -- but you just did a wonderful job using figurative language in order to help illustrate a point.

My contention is that the authors of the Bible has to do this quite a bit.

Yes, the Messiah Himself used much agrarian imagery. But, think about this...if He is indeed the Creator...well then, He created the vegetation first and then us...so, yeah,He would know the most fitting way to describe what His Kingdom is like. Consider this also, the terminology for agriculture, biology, and linguistics are all very similar...why is that? (Linguistic Apologetics)

Jeremiah 17:8
"He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit."

Psalm 1:3 ESV / 237 helpful votes
He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.

Job 14:7 ESV / 220 helpful votes
“For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease.

1 Chronicles 16:33 ESV / 145 helpful votes
Then shall the trees of the forest sing for joy before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth.

Matthew 7:17 ESV / 123 helpful votes
So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.

Daniel 4:10-12 ESV / 112 helpful votes
The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. Its leaves were beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in it was food for all. The beasts of the field found shade under it, and the birds of the heavens lived in its branches, and all flesh was fed from it.

Genesis 2:9 ESV / 89 helpful votes
And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Revelation 22:14 ESV / 69 helpful votes
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Revelation 22:2 ESV / 61 helpful votes
Through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Colossians 2:7 ESV / 59 helpful votes
Rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

Psalm 52:8 ESV / 57 helpful votes
But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God. I trust in the steadfast love of God forever and ever.

Proverbs 13:12 ESV / 53 helpful votes
Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life.




Ok... you say we have His words, so by His, you mean God.

However, the Second Epistle of Peter was, at best, written by St. Peter, or it was, as most scholars believe, pseudepigraphical.

In either case, it was written by a mere mortal, who would've faced the same limitations of language that you or I would.

Just like it says, "Men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit [Holy Breath of God]."

Do you agree that words are extremely powerful? Where do you think we obtained the capacity to speak?

Again, this epistle was written by Paul, not God, who was also a mere mortal.

(and Paul's issues with the other apostles -- those who heard the word of Christ in the flesh -- would make for high drama... but I digress)

That is the whole point. "Mere mortals" speak these words from the Creator...how else do you explain their power? Isn't that the message of the Messiah Himself...that He came down from above to speak and dwell among us...the Word become flesh?

And do those books firmly and completely encapsulate Who He is? Can He be contained by words?

I think not -- and I'd be skeptical of anyone who says otherwise.

No, this is why the Son said:

John 6
" Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— 46not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father."

And

John 14:28
"28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I."

But Messiah did "encapsulate" everything that is necessary for a relationship with the Father.

And your story is an inspiring one, and I wish you the best of luck as you continue down your path.

But your path will not be the same as mine.

Though they have crossed in this forum, and not without reason.

Ah, John... remember when I said all the NT authors but one identified as Jewish? Bingo.

John's non-synoptic Gospel has always been interesting -- I keep meaning to study it in more detail.

Feel free to share your findings!


Ah, ah, ah... "Word" as in Divine Logos, or "word" as in Bible?

Language can be a harsh mistress...

"Word" as in:

The Hebrew noun דבר (davar, Strong's #1697) is translated as "word." It is derived from the parent root דר (DR), which means "order." The verb form of דבר (davar) is דבר (D.B.R, Strong's #1696) and is commonly found in the Biblical text meaning to "speak," as in the phrase vayidaber YHWH el moshe l'mor (and YHWH spoke to Moses saying). The ancient Hebrew understanding of "speaking," or a "speech," is an ordered arrangement of words.

The noun דבר (davar) is a masculine noun. The feminine form of this word is דברה (devorah) and is the name Deborah, but also means "bee." A bee hive is a colony of insects that live in a perfectly ordered society...

...The verb דבר (D.B.R) may better be translated as "order" as in the phrase "And YHWH gave orders to Moses saying". A commanding officer has formulated his action plans and has determined the best means to have these plans carried out. Once all of this is determined, he gives his "orders" to his troops. These orders are "an ordered arrangement"."
Hebrew Word Definitions - Word




And I wish you all the best on your path.

Thank you...and to use a phrase I picked up from the Catholics, "and also with you"!
 
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