Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

Danthemailman

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SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. - W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary.

Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into Divine rest, that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. Hebrews 4:9, we read - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. The Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used nowhere else in the Bible.
 
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Saint Steven

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So how do you get to keep the Sabbath? Where is that in scripture? What does that mean to you? Is the Sabbath Saturday or Sunday? Is God's rest of Hebrews 4, the Sabbath day?
I'm not under the law.
There is no Sabbath requirement for Christians.
As you say, even SDAs believe that. (sort of) But then they keep the Sabbath and claim they aren't under the law. Go figure.

No, the Sabbatismos in Hebrews chapter four is not the Sabbath of the law.
Sabbath law is works. Sabbatismos is a rest from THOSE works. (works of the law)

Hebrews 4:7
God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”...

John 1:16
Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I'm not under the law.
There is no Sabbath requirement for Christians.
As you say, even SDAs believe that. (sort of) But then they keep the Sabbath and claim they aren't under the law. Go figure.

No, the Sabbatismos in Hebrews chapter four is not the Sabbath of the law.
Sabbath law is works. Sabbatismos is a rest from THOSE works. (works of the law)

Hebrews 4:7
God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.”...

I agree. Many do. However, it is how they live their lives according to not being UNDER the law that is troublesome. It is as if they never read Paul's admonishment in Romans 6:15. But as far as law, we do have law, we are not lawless. Romans 8:2 The LAW of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.

John 1:16
Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

Now that is a scripture new to me. I will want to study that one. Thanks.
 
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1stcenturylady

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SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. - W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary.

Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into Divine rest, that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. Hebrews 4:9, we read - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. The Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used nowhere else in the Bible.

Yes, it is no longer a mere exercise of physical rest to teach a spiritual meaning, which Sabbath keepers don't understand. It is a complete trust in God and fellowship with Him moment by moment. Jesus calls it abiding.

It is interesting that at the end of Hebrews 4, it says to now "come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." John 15:7 says our prayers will be answered, and in 1 John 3:21-23 it says our prayers will be answered, as well as 1 John 5:14-15. How many are really abiding in Jesus that even all their prayers are miraculously answered?
 
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Saint Steven

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The LAW of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.
But what is "the law of the Spirit"? (not actually a law)
Probably like the law of gravity, not enforceable, it's just how it works.
Defying gravity is not illegal. - lol
 
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1stcenturylady

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But what is "the law of the Spirit"? (not actually a law)
Probably like the law of gravity, not enforceable, it's just how it works.
Defying gravity is not illegal. - lol

It is something you can break, just like a commandment. Once you have the Spirit, we must walk in the Spirit. Paul tells us to never grieve or quench the Spirit by willfully sinning.

"My sheep hear my voice and follow me." It is literal.
 
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Saint Steven

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It is something you can break, just like a commandment. Once you have the Spirit, we must walk in the Spirit. Paul tells us to never grieve or quench the Spirit by willfully sinning.

"My sheep hear my voice and follow me." It is literal.
This is an interesting discussion. I hope I am not annoying you too much with it.
We will likely get into some hair-spitting at this point. Since we are getting down to fine details. I appreciate the challenge of answering your objections. Hopefully we can both learn something from each other.

I contend that being led by the Spirit is not a compliance with any law, or laws.
The Spirit doesn't need to guide us in things that our conscience already does.
The conscience, as I have demonstrated scripturally, guides us in matters that pertain to what I identify as God's law. Some refer to it as the Moral law or the Eternal law.

So, in what way does the Spirit lead us?
When I hear God's voice telling me to speak to a certain person, I need to be obedient to that directive. If I decide not to follow that direction, I have not broken any law. But I have by failure to comply, been disobedient to the Spirit's directive. Especially if it was clear to me. Meaning God's voice was unmistakable in this matter. What we might call the "loud" voice of God.

But what about the "quiet" voice of God? Is that not also the leading of the Spirit?
The situation where you wonder if it was God, or just the pizza talking. - lol

Now I will agree that the Spirit may be nudging us in relation to an area where we fall short and even use our conscience to convict us of sin. But this does not IMHO indicate to me that the Spirit is enforcing his own law.

If there is a law at play here, please explain it.
Are we liable to comply with a leading that is subtle at best? An impression of something we aren't even certain about? What sort of law would cover such things?

And how could we call them laws since they are individualized? Please explain. Thanks.
 
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This is an interesting discussion. I hope I am not annoying you too much with it.
We will likely get into some hair-spitting at this point. Since we are getting down to fine details. I appreciate the challenge of answering your objections. Hopefully we can both learn something from each other.

I contend that being led by the Spirit is not a compliance with any law, or laws.
The Spirit doesn't need to guide us in things that our conscience already does.
The conscience, as I have demonstrated scripturally, guides us in matters that pertain to what I identify as God's law. Some refer to it as the Moral law or the Eternal law.

So, in what way does the Spirit lead us?
When I hear God's voice telling me to speak to a certain person, I need to be obedient to that directive. If I decide not to follow that direction, I have not broken any law. But I have by failure to comply, been disobedient to the Spirit's directive. Especially if it was clear to me. Meaning God's voice was unmistakable in this matter. What we might call the "loud" voice of God.

But what about the "quiet" voice of God? Is that not also the leading of the Spirit?
The situation where you wonder if it was God, or just the pizza talking. - lol

Now I will agree that the Spirit may be nudging us in relation to an area where we fall short and even use our conscience to convict us of sin. But this does not IMHO indicate to me that the Spirit is enforcing his own law.

If there is a law at play here, please explain it.
Are we liable to comply with a leading that is subtle at best? An impression of something we aren't even certain about? What sort of law would cover such things?

And how could we call them laws since they are individualized? Please explain. Thanks.

The normal conscience has been super-sensitized and is the main place that is controlled by the Spirit. You love what God loves and hate what God hates. It is here where you cultivate the fruit of the Spirit, always being motivated by love. When driving in heavy traffic is a good place to practice. When at the grocery store develop discipline to return the cart. Be courteous, give way to the other guy. Be long-sufferring and slow to speak, put up with an annoying colleague or boss. Be conscious of the fact that God is in control and teaching you patience so that you can be perfect/mature, lacking nothing. James 1

When God speaks a directive, listen. He may be saving you from a load of trouble. Once I didn't listen and married an abusive man, but realized it was my fault for not listening. After 13 years I was released from that marriage when he wanted a divorce to be with the wife of his best friend. There were other opportunities I lost out on due to the fact that I married when I did. But the best thing that came out of it was I learned absolute obedience to God.

When God uses you to speak to someone else, know that it is because you are the best person to speak to that person. If you refuse, He'll have to use second-best, and your ears will turn off a notch in the volume of hearing His voice. Is it a sin, no, but there ARE consequences.

As to the pizza talking ;), God has given you a sound mind, but I go with it being God if it continues. God sees all and will see that your heart is to please Him in all things.
 
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Saint Steven

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The normal conscience has been super-sensitized and is the main place that is controlled by the Spirit. You love what God loves and hate what God hates. It is here where you cultivate the fruit of the Spirit, always being motivated by love. When driving in heavy traffic is a good place to practice. When at the grocery store develop discipline to return the cart. Be courteous, give way to the other guy. Be long-sufferring and slow to speak, put up with an annoying colleague or boss. Be conscious of the fact that God is in control and teaching you patience so that you can be perfect/mature, lacking nothing. James 1

When God speaks a directive, listen. He may be saving you from a load of trouble. Once I didn't listen and married an abusive man, but realized it was my fault for not listening. After 13 years I was released from that marriage when he wanted a divorce to be with the wife of his best friend. There were other opportunities I lost out on due to the fact that I married when I did. But the best thing that came out of it was I learned absolute obedience to God.

When God uses you to speak to someone else, know that it is because you are the best person to speak to that person. If you refuse, He'll have to use second-best, and your ears will turn off a notch in the volume of hearing His voice. Is it a sin, no, but there ARE consequences.

As to the pizza talking ;), God has given you a sound mind, but I go with it being God if it continues. God sees all and will see that your heart is to please Him in all things.
I agree with a lot of this.

I like what you are saying about a "super-sensitized" conscience. I like to think of it being renewed back to original factory specification. Like the removing of a thick callous. Which leaves it with the super-sensitivity you pointed out. A heart of flesh to replace our old heart of stone.

And I agree that there are consequences for not being obedient to God's voice. Especially the undeniable "loud" voice.

Maybe I have changed your mind on the law aspect of the Spirit? I see no further defense of that position here.
 
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I agree with a lot of this.

I like what you are saying about a "super-sensitized" conscience. I like to think of it being renewed back to original factory specification. Like the removing of a thick callous. Which leaves it with the super-sensitivity you pointed out. A heart of flesh to replace our old heart of stone.

And I agree that there are consequences for not being obedient to God's voice. Especially the undeniable "loud" voice.

Maybe I have changed your mind on the law aspect of the Spirit? I see no further defense of that position here.

There is a law, and that is for you to walk sinless. For if you sin willfully you again become a slave to sin, and you put yourself under the law and its penalty. Romans 6; 1 John 3

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ is stricter than the law of sin and death. That is the reason for the importance of being born again of the Spirit. The Spirit does all the work, you just have to surrender to the Spirit.
 
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There is a law, and that is for you to walk sinless. For if you sin willfully you again become a slave to sin, and you put yourself under the law and its penalty. Romans 6; 1 John 3

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ is stricter than the law of sin and death. That is the reason for the importance of being born again of the Spirit. The Spirit does all the work, you just have to surrender to the Spirit.
The law of sin and death isn't a law either.
These are both comparatives given to explain how things work, not actual laws.
Who enforces the law of gravity? It's not actually a law in that sense. It's just how it works.

We have been set free from the law. If the law of the Spirit is stricter, what's the point of being set free? Like getting out of an open campus prison to go to a maximum security facility. Pointless to celebrate your "freedom". Gone from bad to worse.
 
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The law of sin and death isn't a law either.
These are both comparatives given to explain how things work, not actual laws.
Who enforces the law of gravity? It's not actually a law in that sense. It's just how it works.

We have been set free from the law. If the law of the Spirit is stricter, what's the point of being set free? Like getting out of an open campus prison to go to a maximum security facility. Pointless to celebrate your "freedom". Gone from bad to worse.

The "law of sin and death" is the same as the "ministry of death" - the Ten Commandments. Didn't you know that? 2 Corinthians 3:7 "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones..."

It seems you believe the freedom we receive is from the LAW, when it is freedom from SIN, the need for the law. (No sin, no need for law) That's what I was afraid of, and why I've been asking you so many questions about the "law is the law" and how you interpret the meaning of being free from the law. You never answered until now. Now I know. :( I know you wanted me to learn something from you, but I sincerely hope you now learn something very important from me.

You are not the first person by far to make that mis-interpretation; I just want to know why when it seems so clear in Scripture over and over that Jesus freed us from sin. Some have made your interpretation but have gone so far to say that no law, no sin inputed to us, putting the cart before the horse. No! It is no sin, no need for the law.

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:5
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 6:2 and 7
2 dead to sin
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
 
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The "law of sin and death" is the same as the "ministry of death" - the Ten Commandments. Didn't you know that? 2 Corinthians 3:7 "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones..."
They are certainly related, but I don't believe they are the same. One is in reference to a principle (how something works), the other is in reference to the TCs which are only part (a subset) of the whole law. The Apostle Paul puts it this way. To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given... - Rom.5:13 (sin was before the law, as was the law of sin and death, linked to the Fall of humankind) IMHO
 
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It seems you believe the freedom we receive is from the LAW, when it is freedom from SIN, the need for the law. (No sin, no need for law) That's what I was afraid of, and why I've been asking you so many questions about the "law is the law" and how you interpret the meaning of being free from the law. You never answered until now. Now I know. :( I know you wanted me to learn something from you, but I sincerely hope you now learn something very important from me.
Sorry, I disagree.
While it is true that we have been set free from sin, we have also been set free from the law.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Galatians 3:2-3
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Romans 10:4
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
 
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Sorry, I disagree.
While it is true that we have been set free from sin, we have also been set free from the law.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Galatians 3:2-3
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Romans 10:4
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

You seem to focus of freedom from the law, whereas I focus on freedom from sin. So what is the reason that we have been freed from the law seeing as the purpose of the law was to show us our sin. But if we've been freed from sin, then naturally we've been freed from the law that is no longer needed. What some want to say is we are freed from the law so our sins do not count against us as there is no law to break. This fallacy is what generated the phrase "forgiveness of past, present and future sins," even though we have been cleansed of only our PAST sins of lawlessness. But will be forgiven our trespasses while walking in the Spirit. 1 John 1:7.
 
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They are certainly related, but I don't believe they are the same. One is in reference to a principle (how something works), the other is in reference to the TCs which are only part (a subset) of the whole law. The Apostle Paul puts it this way. To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given... - Rom.5:13 (sin was before the law, as was the law of sin and death, linked to the Fall of humankind) IMHO

The "law of sin and death" is the continuation of thought of Romans 7 which is about the 10C.
 
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You seem to focus of freedom from the law, whereas I focus on freedom from sin. So what is the reason that we have been freed from the law seeing as the purpose of the law was to show us our sin. But if we've been freed from sin, then naturally we've been freed from the law that is no longer needed. What some want to say is we are freed from the law so our sins do not count against us as there is no law to break. This fallacy is what generated the phrase "forgiveness of past, present and future sins," even though we have been cleansed of only our PAST sins of lawlessness. But will be forgiven our trespasses while walking in the Spirit. 1 John 1:7.
This raises the question about when we are saved. And also about how complete the work of the atonement is.

I believe the atonement of Christ on our behalf is a completed work. It was sufficient for the task and we are saved in the here and now the moment we receive what Christ has done for us. And the law was nailed to the cross as well.

Colossians 2:13-14
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
 
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This raises the question about when we are saved. And also about how complete the work of the atonement is.

I believe the atonement of Christ on our behalf is a completed work. It was sufficient for the task and we are saved in the here and now the moment we receive what Christ has done for us. And the law was nailed to the cross as well.

Colossians 2:13-14
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

That is the best case scenario. Jesus has given us the ability through the power of the Spirit to no longer sin. But we still have free will. Romans 6 shows us we are dead to sin, but it also speaks of our ability to go ahead and become a slave to sin all over again. And the result of that is the wages of sin is death.
 
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The "law of sin and death" is the continuation of thought of Romans 7 which is about the 10C.
Really?
Where is this law in the TCs?

Romans 7:2
For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.
 
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Really?
Where is this law in the TCs?

Romans 7:2
For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.

In the TCs? It IS the TC!
 
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