Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"


  • Total voters
    63

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Daniel 9:25 (KJV) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

This was telling the Israelites it will be 69 weeks until the Messiah comes, from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, notice the temple is not in this.

Daniel 9: 26 (KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This does not include the 7 weeks it is And After 62 weeks shall Messiah be cut off. He would not be cut off before he first came so this is after 69 weeks. The temple was rebuilt before the city and walls were rebuilt which is the 7 weeks. The last week started with Jesus’ baptism and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, the temptation of Satan and then his ministry started by picking his disciples, three and a half years (1260) days before the crucifixion.

The people of the prince that shall come. This is not the prince, it is the people of the prince. Destroying the Temple was not among Titus' goals, due to the massive increases done by Herod the Great mere decades earlier. Titus had wanted to seize it and transform it into a temple dedicated to the Roman Emperor. The soldiers did not obey, they were so mad by the resistance they destroyed the temple, and burned the temple and the gold melted and run down in the cracks, so they tore it totally down for the gold. (It is the people of the prince, not the prince). Daniel 9:27 (KJV) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Some place this at the end of time, when the clock starts back up, and the he here is the antichrist, so ending the four hundred ninety years at four hundred and eighty-three and a gap of thousands of years of time, and the last seven years for the Tribulation period. Jesus is the one who came to confirm the covenant. He fulfilled the old and confirmed the new. Luke 4:17-21 (KJV) 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.20 And he closed the book, and he gave
it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

When Jesus died on the cross, the old covenant animal sacrifices was nailed to the cross because, Jesus is the final sacrifice, no more animal sacrifice even though they continued to be offered until 66-67A.D. He confirmed the covenant and he also fulfilled the old covenant being without spot and perfect in the eyes of God and the only one that could undo the first covenant and make the new covenant which ended the Jewish Law keeping animal sacrifices. Jesus told the woman at the well this.
John 4:21-23 (KJV) 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Matthew 23:37-38 (KJV) 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Jesus made it desolate. When is the end of the seventieth week? In Acts, we see that Jesus through the Holy Ghost had given commandments to his apostles not to depart from Jerusalem but wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit. Jesus came first for the Jews, and the entire last week of this prophesy was to the lost sheep of Israel confirming the covenant, and the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven.

It is clear that Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel to confirm the new covenant with Israel. Even after they crucified him, Jesus commanded the apostles to keep confirming and not to go to the Gentiles, and for the next three and a half years the other 1260 days they did not.

Acts 7:54-60 (KJV) 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

They totally rejected him and they put the only begotten Son of God, the Messiah to death. The clock did not stop because the crucifixion and the resurrection are half way through the last seventieth week and the apostilles confirmed the last three- and one-half years.

The temple was almost 40 years later, maybe this was the compassion of God, a grace period for them to repent.

Great post, Rodron.

Here is some elucidation regarding the identity of the prince and His people, which I've found beneficial and trust you will as well.


There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9.

It is Messiah. (Daniel 9:25)

The people of the prince refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah's agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:

Jeremiah 25
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.

God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.

In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment, so too were the pagan Roman armies Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes.

In addition, the Jews themselves, as the historical people of Prince Messiah, were equally responsible for the destruction and suffering. Their own actions in defiling and destroying the buildings and temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:

The Lamentation of Josephus
War 5.1.4 19-20


The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.

As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as complicit agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as Divinely orchestrated.

Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."


The people, both Roman and Jewish, of the prince Messiah who was to come, were Messiah's agents and instruments in accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction upon those who had rejected Him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Has anyone looked at Daniel using the Greek LXX?

I just found this great interlinear today, and what is so nice about is, when you click on the Greek strong's # it shows where it is used in the NT, along with variations of that word and lots of info on it. I am going to study into this more.

For example #4932 in Daniel 9:24
2 occurrences of G4932 συντέμνω
Romans 9:28 cut it short
Romans 9:28 a short
Rom 9:28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”
[fn]
Corresponding Hebrew Words
sun temno H2782 charats qal,ni
sun temno H2852 chatakh ni.
sun temno H3615 kalah
Thayer:
1) to cut in pieces
2) to cut short
3) metaph.
3a) to dispatch briefly, execute or finish quickly
3b) to hasten
3c) a short word i.e. an expedited prophecy or decree
View how G4932 συντέμνω is used in the Bible
Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

Daniel 9:24

1440 εβδομήκοντα Seventy 1439.1 εβδομάδες periods of seven 4932 συνετμήθησαν were rendered concise 1909 επί upon 3588 τον 2992-1473 λαόν σου your people, 2532 και and 1909 επί upon 3588 την the 4172 πόλιν [2city 3588 την 39 αγίαν 1holy], 3588 του 4931 συντελεσθήναι to finish off 266 αμαρτίαν sin, 2532 και and 3588 του 4972 σφραγίσαι to set a seal upon 266 αμαρτίας sins, 2532 και and 524.1 απαλείψαι to wipe out 3588 τας the 458 ανομίαις lawless deeds, 2532 και and 3588 του 1837.2 εξιλάσασθαι to atone 93 αδικίας for iniquities, 2532 και and 3588 του 71 αγαγείν to bring 1343 δικαιοσύνην [2righteousness 166 αιώνιον 1eternal], 2532 και and 3588 του 4972 σφραγίσαι to set a seal upon 3706 όρασιν vision 2532 και and 4394 προφητείαν prophecy, 2532 και and 3588 του 5548 χρίσαι to anoint 39 άγιον the holy 39 αγίων of holies.

Daniel 9:25
2532 και And 1097 γνώση you shall know 2532 και and 4920 συνήσεις perceive, 575 από from 1841 εξόδου the delivery 3056 λόγου of the word 3588 του 611 αποκριθήναι to respond 2532 και and 3588 του 3618 οικοδομήσαι to build * Ιερουσαλήμ Jerusalem 2193 έως until 5547 χριστού the anointed one 2233 ηγουμένου leading -- 1439.1 εβδομάδες [2periods of seven 2033 επτά 1seven], 2532 και and 1439.1 εβδομάδες [2periods of seven 1835.1 εξηκονταδύο 1sixty-two]. 3825 πάλιν Again 3618 οικοδομηθήσεται [4shall be built 4113 πλατεία 1the square 2532 και 2and 5038 τείχος 3wall] 1722 εν in 4730 στενοχωρία straits 3588 των of the 5550 χρόνων times.

Daniel 9:26
2532 και And 3326 μετά after 3588 τας the 1439.1 εβδομάδας [2periods of seven 3588 τας 1835.1 εξηκονταδύο 1sixty-two], 1842 εξολοθρευθήσεται [2shall be utterly destroyed 5545 χρίσμα 1the anointing], 2532 και and 2917 κρίμα judgment 3756-1510.2.3 ουκ έστιν is no longer 1722 εν in 1473 αυτώ it. 3588-1161 την δε And the 4172 πόλιν city, 2532 και and 3588 το the 39 άγιον holy place 1311 διαφθερεί he shall corrupt 4862 συν with 3588 τω the one 2233 ηγουμένω taking the lead, 3588 τω the one 2064 ερχομένω coming, 2532 και and 1581 εκκοπήσονται they shall be cut off 5613 ως as 1722 εν in 2627 κατακλυσμώ a flood, 2532 και and 2193 έως [3until 5056 τέλους 4the end 4171 πολέμου 5of war 4932 συντετμημένου 6being terminated 5010 τάξει 1he shall order 854 αφανισμοίς 2in extinctions].

Daniel 9:27
9:27 2532 και And 1412 δυναμώσει he shall strengthen 1242 διαθήκην covenant 4183 πολλοίς with many 1439.1 εβδομάς [2period of sevens 1520 μία 1one]; 2532 και and 1722 εν in 3588 τω the 2255 ημίσει half 3588 της of the 1439.1 εβδομάδος period of seven 142 αρθήσεται shall be lifted away 2378 θυσία sacrifice 2532 και and 4700.2 σπονδή libation offering, 2532 και and 1909 επί upon 3588 το the 2413 ιερόν temple 946 βδέλυγμα an abomination 3588 των of the 2050 ερημώσεων desolations 1510.8.3 έσται will be; 2532 και and 2193 έως until 3588 της the 4930 συντελείας completion 2540 καιρού of time, 4930 συντέλεια completion 1325 δοθήσεται shall be given 1909 επί unto 3588 την the 2050 ερήμωσιν desolation.

Compare Daniel 9:27 in other Bible versions
Compare Daniel 9:26 in other Bible versions
Compare Daniel 9:25 in other Bible versions
Compare Daniel 9:24 in other Bible versions
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
LittleLambofJesus said:
Yes. I have been studying Josephus in relation to Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation and I am just awed and blown away by the huge divine event in 70ad.
This site has a huge study on Josephus and the Jewish revolts/wars from 62AD to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad, and the final Jewish stronghold of Masada in 73ad if you are interested:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR


Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

..............Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord............
At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city........
The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover........

Finding it impossible to restrain the impetuosity and cruelty of his soldiers, the Commander in chief proceeded, with some of his superior officers, to take a survey of those parts of the edifice which were still uninjured by the conflagration.
It had not, at this time, reached the inner Temple, which Titus entered, and viewed with silent admiration. Struck with the magnificence of its architecture, and the beauty of its decorations, which even surpassed the report of fame concerning them ;
and perceiving that the sanctuary had not yet caught fire, he redoubled his efforts to stop the progress of the flames.
He condescended even to entreat his soldiers to exert all their strength and activity for this purpose, and appointed a centurion of the guards to punish them if they again disregarded him : but all was in vain.........................

The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.
This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding..............

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.

Revelation 19:2
“For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great Harlot who corrupted the earth with Her fornication;
and He has avenged <1556> on Her the blood of His servants shed by Her.”
Thanks Little Lamb! I am new and still trying to find my way around. Look forward to checking that out. I'm a two finger typist but love the Word and truth is light, wow may we never be in darkness!!!
If you click on my little pesky devil avatar, [or any member's] you can look at my or their "featured threads" and/or click on number of posts. Hope this helps.
There is also the member's support center:

Support Center | Christian Forums

.............................
typing 2 fingers.gif
 
Upvote 0

Rodron

Active Member
Feb 23, 2019
31
21
73
Birmingham
✟10,586.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Upvote 0

Rodron

Active Member
Feb 23, 2019
31
21
73
Birmingham
✟10,586.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Great post, Rodron.

Here is some elucidation regarding the identity of the prince and His people, which I've found beneficial and trust you will as well.


There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9.

It is Messiah. (Daniel 9:25)

The people of the prince refers to the Roman armies which were Messiah's agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied. God's use of such instruments, and His characterization of them as "mine" even though pagan, can be found in several OT instances e.g.:

Jeremiah 25
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the Lord, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

Jeremiah 43
10 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.

God characterizes the pagan Nebuchadnezzar as "my servant" in using him and his armies against Judah and Egypt.

In the same way as Nebuchadnezzar, though a pagan, was God's servant in executing His judgment, so too were the pagan Roman armies Messiah's people in accomplishing His purposes.

In addition, the Jews themselves, as the historical people of Prince Messiah, were equally responsible for the destruction and suffering. Their own actions in defiling and destroying the buildings and temple prior to the Roman invasion are described by Josephus:

The Lamentation of Josephus
War 5.1.4 19-20


The darts that were thrown by the engines [of the seditious factions] came with that force, that they went over all the buildings and the Temple itself, and fell upon the priests and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and barbarians, with their own blood. The dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
Oh most wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy internal pollutions! For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou longer survive, after thou hadst been a sepulchre for the bodies of thine own people, and hast made the Holy House itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction.

As seen, Josephus recognizes the Jews as complicit agents of their own destruction, and that destruction as Divinely orchestrated.

Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."


The people, both Roman and Jewish, of the prince Messiah who was to come, were Messiah's agents and instruments in accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction upon those who had rejected Him.
Thanks! I do find it beneficial This is some of Josephus writings you may have if not. Since you included things going on in Jerusalem around that time may this also be beneficial.

In Matthew 24, Mark13 on the Mount of Olives I believe parts of what Jesus told the four, Peter, James, John, and Andrew, some don’t realize Jesus only told four of the disciples all this. Maybe Jesus told them for to instruct the believers when the time was to leave Judea, just a thought. If we look at the words you shall see the abomination of desolation, (ἴδητε) (horaó) 3708 in Strong’s the meaning (to see with the mind), (a spiritually see). Perceive (with inward spiritual perception) maybe a spiritual seeing and not an actual visual seeing.

History has recorded things that could fit, like what Josephus wrote in The War of the Jews book four, chapter three 7, 8. There was a civil war going on in Jerusalem Jews against Jews. In 66 A.D. The Zealots had taken over the temple and Eleazar a leader of the Zealots stopped the sacrifices of the Gentiles, and the daily sacrifice of Caesar and peace offerings of all Romans, and in Josephus. Not from scripture so it is not inspired.

7. And now the multitude was going to rise against them already. For Ananus,3 the ancientest of the High-priests, persuaded them to it. He was a very prudent man, and had perhaps saved the city if he could but have escaped the hands of those that plotted against him. Those men made the temple of God a strong hold for them, and a place whither they might resort, in order to avoid the troubles, they feared from the people: the sanctuary was now become a refuge, and a shop of tyranny. They also mixed jesting among the miseries they introduced, which was more intolerable than what they did: for in order to try what surprize the people would be under, and how far their own power extended, they undertook to dispose of the High-priesthood by casting lots for it: whereas, as we have said already, it was to descend by succession in a family. The pretence they made for this strange attempt was an ancient practice, while they said that of old it was determined by lot.4 But in truth it was no better than dissolution of an undeniable law, and a cunning contrivance to seize upon the government, derived from those that presumed to appoint governors as they themselves pleased.

8. Hereupon they sent for one of the pontifical5 tribes, which is called Eniachim, (6) and cast lots which of it should be the High-priest. By fortune the lot so fell as to demonstrate their iniquity after the plainest manner; for it fell upon one whose name was Phannias, the son of Samuel, of the village Aphtha. He was a man not only unworthy of the High-priesthood, but that did not well know what the High-priesthood was. Such a mere rustic was he. Yet did they hale this man, without his own consent, out of the country; as if they were acting a play upon the stage; and adorned him with a counterfeit face. They also put upon him the sacred garments; and upon every occasion instructed him what he was to do. This horrid piece of wickedness was sport and pastime with them. But occasioned the other priests, who, at a distance, saw their law made a jest of, to shed tears, and sorely lament the dissolution of such a sacred dignity.

Maybe this was the spiritual seeing that was a signal to get out of Judea. The Christians did get out before the destruction of the city and went to a city called Pella. In love Rodron
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
jgr said:
Great post, Rodron.

Here is some elucidation regarding the identity of the prince and His people, which I've found beneficial and trust you will as well.


There is only one individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9.

It is Messiah. (Daniel 9:25)
Thanks! I do find it beneficial This is some of Josephus writings you may have if not. Since you included things going on in Jerusalem around that time may this also be beneficial.

In Matthew 24, Mark13 on the Mount of Olives I believe parts of what Jesus told the four, Peter, James, John, and Andrew, some don’t realize Jesus only told four of the disciples all this. Maybe Jesus told them for to instruct the believers when the time was to leave Judea, just a thought. If we look at the words you shall see the abomination of desolation, (ἴδητε) (horaó) 3708 in Strong’s the meaning (to see with the mind), (a spiritually see). Perceive (with inward spiritual perception) maybe a spiritual seeing and not an actual visual seeing.

History has recorded things that could fit, like what Josephus wrote in The War of the Jews book four, chapter three 7, 8. There was a civil war going on in Jerusalem Jews against Jews. In 66 A.D. The Zealots had taken over the temple and Eleazar a leader of the Zealots stopped the sacrifices of the Gentiles, and the daily sacrifice of Caesar and peace offerings of all Romans, and in Josephus. Not from scripture so it is not inspired.

7. And now the multitude was going to rise against them already. For Ananus,3 the ancientest of the High-priests, persuaded them to it. He was a very prudent man, and had perhaps saved the city if he could but have escaped the hands of those that plotted against him. Those men made the temple of God a strong hold for them, and a place whither they might resort, in order to avoid the troubles, they feared from the people: the sanctuary was now become a refuge, and a shop of tyranny. They also mixed jesting among the miseries they introduced, which was more intolerable than what they did: for in order to try what surprize the people would be under, and how far their own power extended, they undertook to dispose of the High-priesthood by casting lots for it: whereas, as we have said already, it was to descend by succession in a family. The pretence they made for this strange attempt was an ancient practice, while they said that of old it was determined by lot.4 But in truth it was no better than dissolution of an undeniable law, and a cunning contrivance to seize upon the government, derived from those that presumed to appoint governors as they themselves pleased.

8. Hereupon they sent for one of the pontifical5 tribes, which is called Eniachim, (6) and cast lots which of it should be the High-priest. By fortune the lot so fell as to demonstrate their iniquity after the plainest manner; for it fell upon one whose name was Phannias, the son of Samuel, of the village Aphtha. He was a man not only unworthy of the High-priesthood, but that did not well know what the High-priesthood was. Such a mere rustic was he. Yet did they hale this man, without his own consent, out of the country; as if they were acting a play upon the stage; and adorned him with a counterfeit face. They also put upon him the sacred garments; and upon every occasion instructed him what he was to do. This horrid piece of wickedness was sport and pastime with them. But occasioned the other priests, who, at a distance, saw their law made a jest of, to shed tears, and sorely lament the dissolution of such a sacred dignity.

Maybe this was the spiritual seeing that was a signal to get out of Judea. The Christians did get out before the destruction of the city and went to a city called Pella. In love Rodron
I have never read Josephus's writings concerning Daniel. Here are a few links:

UNABRIDGED BIBLIOGRAPHY | Governmental Administration of Roman Judea | Factions in Jerusalem During the Roman Siege | Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War | Preterist Perspectives on Josephus | Maps of The Siege of Jerusalem | Flavius Josephus Home Page | Works of Flavius Josephus | Relevant Maps | Historical Maps: Jerusalem | Wars Between Jews and Romans | Rome and the Jews | Josephus, the Primary Source | The Credibility Of Josephus | The Fall of Jerusalem and the Future of the Jews | Illustrated History of the Roman Empire | Roger of Hoveden: Fall of Jerusalem, 1187 | The Myth Of Masada | Josephus Unbound | A Chronology of Destruction | Jewish Revolt and Destruction of Jerusalem | Josephus and Jesus | The Jewish millionaire who surrendered to the Romans | First Century Jerusalem | Historical Maps | Maps of Jerusalem
=======================================

How early Judaism read Daniel 9:24-27

3 Flavius Josephus

Similar to 1 Macc 1:54, Josephus understood Daniel's abomination of desolation with reference to the desecrating action of Antiochus IV at the Jerusalem temple.35 Nevertheless, Josephus also perceived application for his day. He says, "In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them."36 The reference to desolation would seem to have Dan 9:27 in view, but Josephus offers no explanation of Dan 9 to his Roman readers.

Modern readers of Josephus have to keep in mind that he wrote to two audiences-one Jewish and the other Roman-and that he wanted to convince both of his loyalty.37 He evidently tried to review Jewish history in such a way as not to upset his Roman patrons.38 Although Josephus could mention Roman conquest, he dared not say that biblical prophecy announced the eventual tri-umph of God's kingdom over all others. Concerning the stone that smashes Nebuchadnezzar's metallic statue in Dan 2, Josephus says:

Daniel did also declare the meaning of the stone to the king [Nebuchadnezzar]; but I do not think proper to relate it, since I have only undertaken to describe things past or things present, but not things that are future: yet if anyone be so desirous of knowing truth, as not to waive such points of curiosity, and cannot curb his inclination for understanding the uncertainties of futurity, and whether they will happen or not, let him be diligent in reading the book of Daniel, which he will find among the sacred writings.39

Readers cannot help but notice how carefully Josephus indicates that more could be said (for the sake of his Jewish readers) but avoids saying it (for the sake of his Roman readers and himself).40 He must have felt confident that his Roman readers would not consult the book of Daniel and discover the unfavorable revelation that an Israelite prophet received about the kingdoms of the world, including Rome.

What is evident, though, is Josephus' typological understanding of the abomination of desolation. He thought that both Antiochus IV and the Romans had desecrated God's temple. The original meaning of Daniel's prophecies pertained to the former, but the passage of time allowed Josephus to recognise recapitulation in the latter. Van Kooten may say, "How exactly Josephus under-stood the qualifier 'in the same manner' remains unclear," but typology seems to be a part of the explanation just as much as prediction.41
================================
 
Upvote 0

ThatCanadianDude_88

Active Member
May 25, 2018
57
26
Montreal
✟11,530.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
It looks like the 70 weeks of Daniel is a popular topic in Christianity today, so I thought I would create one and include a poll. I also am interested in discussing this.

YLT)
Daniel 9:
24 ‘Sevens, seventy are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.
27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many — one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’


.

Hello

Quoting Daniel:

Daniel 9:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah
“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

The 70 weeks brings into completion all things. The one and only event that will see this prophecy fulfilled is the return of Christ and establishment of the Messianic Kingdom. "To bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." Futurism is the lone view that can account for this.

The gap in the prophecy is merely the reflection of Israel's historical narrative. The prophecy is about Israel and Jerusalem and there is a large gap between the first and second coming of Christ which is what Israel's narrative hinges around.

There is no need for "evidence", the gap is absolutely implied. It was not revealed to Daniel what would take place in between the 69th and 70th week as the prophecy was given within the context of Israel's covenant relationship with God. Daniel did not see the moment when the kingdom would be taken away from the "sons of Israel" and given to a nation bearing the fruit of it, as Jesus proclaimed. This is what Paul explains in Romans, how the transgression of Israel brought the gospel to the Gentiles.

Paul tells us clearly that is a mystery that was only revealed following the first advent of Christ.

Ephesians 3:8-10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
 
Upvote 0

safswan

Active Member
Nov 15, 2005
383
131
58
✟30,710.00
Faith
Christian
And since I believe there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week, I'm not the one that needs to provide a precise day and time the 70 weeks allegedly finished. The ones claiming no gap need to provide this since it seems odd they can know precisely when the 70 weeks began, but can't know precisely when they end, while at the same time claiming they have already ended.

It looks like the 70 weeks of Daniel is a popular topic in Christianity today, so I thought I would create one and include a poll. I also am interested in discussing this.

Very late to the party but here is my 2c:

Daniel 9 - Notes on.


The timeline given in Daniel 8 is very clear and simple.The angel Gabriel begins to explain the vision to Daniel and says:

Daniel 8:
18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

N.B. It was about 300 years from the time of this vision to the time of the accomplishment of it.

What was said of the ram previously closely matches what was said in Daniel 7 about the second world ruling kingdom which is also supported by the vision of Daniel 2.Read and compare:

Daniel 8:
3Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Daniel 7:
5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Raised up on one side is showing an uneven condition just as the horns were not even.These are references to the same kingdom.

Daniel 2:
38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The scripture above shows the progression of the four world ruling kingdoms of men unto the kingdom of God.That the kingdom of Babylon ruled by Nebuchadnezzar is the first is clear.History also shows that it is the kingdom of the Medes and Persians which is the second kingdom.The breast and arms of silver,the bear raised up on one side and the ram with two uneven horns all refer to this kingdom.

If we were unsure about this then the further explanation of the angel in Daniel 8 would remove this uncertainty.He further explains:

Daniel 8:
21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Who was the first king of the world ruling kingdom of Greece?Again history is clear and this is a reference to Alexander the Great.What happened to his kingdom?

Daniel 8:
22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

All of this is clearly confirmed again by history as Alexander's kingdom was divided eventually into four kingdoms which did not have the power he had.It is out of one of these kingdoms that the little horn of Daniel 8,comes.

Daniel 8:
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The description of the little horn gives a clearer picture of the situation.

Daniel 8:
8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The historical timeline and actions of Antiochus IV fully matches with the description given about the little horn in Daniel 8.Any other interpretation will have to tear away the little horn from the context given in the passage.

The fact that Daniel 9 is a further explanation of the vision of Daniel 8 is seen in the statement:

Daniel 9:
21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Notice what had occurred concerning the vision of Daniel 8:

Dan 8:
16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Gabriel was the one tasked to give Daniel understanding of the vision.

Dan 8:
27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Even though Gabriel gave the interpretation of the vision Daniel still did not understand aspects of the same and hence Gabriel has returned to complete what was started in Daniel 8.


Hence there are several reasons why the explanation of Daniel 9 could not be a reference to the Lord Jesus and the most obvious one is because it is an explanation of the vision of Daniel 8,whose timeline does not extend to the time of the Lord Jesus.

Also it is claimed that "anoint the most Holy"(Daniel 9:24) refers to the anointing of the Lord Jesus at his baptism.However the term used refers to the anointing of a thing and not a person.

the most holy - (Strong's,6944;qôdesh,from 6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity:


Hence this could not be a reference to the Lord Jesus but refers to the restoration of the temple after its desecration.

Also the term "Messiah the Prince" is not specific to the Lord Jesus and is used to refer to the high priest and the ruler of the temple.(See,Leviticus 4:3;II Chronicles 31:12,13)

Messiah - (Strong's,4899)mâshîyach;from 4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: -


Total KJV Occurrences: 39
anointed, 37
Lev_4:3, Lev_4:5, Lev_4:16, Lev_6:22, 1Sa_2:10, 1Sa_2:35, 1Sa_12:3, 1Sa_24:5-6 (4), 1Sa_24:10, 1Sa_26:9, 1Sa_26:11, 1Sa_26:16, 1Sa_26:23, 2Sa_1:14, 2Sa_1:16, 2Sa_19:21 (2), 2Sa_22:51, 2Sa_23:1, 1Ch_16:22, 2Ch_6:42, Psa_2:2, Psa_18:50, Psa_20:6, Psa_84:8-9 (2), Psa_89:38, Psa_89:51, Psa_105:15, Psa_132:10, Psa_132:17, Isa_45:1, Lam_4:20, Hab_3:13
messiah, 2
Dan_9:25-26 (2)


the Prince - (Strong's,5057)nâgîyd nâgid;from 5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstract plural), honorable themes:

Total KJV Occurrences: 47
ruler, 19
1Sa_25:30, 2Sa_6:21, 2Sa_7:8, 1Ki_1:35, 1Ch_5:2, 1Ch_9:11, 1Ch_9:20, 1Ch_11:2, 1Ch_17:7, 1Ch_26:24, 1Ch_27:4, 1Ch_27:16, 1Ch_28:4, 2Ch_6:5, 2Ch_11:22, 2Ch_31:11-13 (3), Neh_11:11
prince, 8
1Ki_14:7, 1Ki_16:2, Job_31:37, Pro_28:16, Eze_28:2, Dan_9:25-26 (2), Dan_11:22
captain, 5
1Sa_9:16, 1Sa_10:1, 1Sa_13:14, 2Sa_5:2, 2Ki_20:5
chief, 3
1Ch_5:2, 1Ch_29:22, Jer_20:1
governor, 3
1Ch_29:22, 2Ch_28:7, Jer_20:1
leader, 3
1Ch_12:27, 1Ch_13:1, Isa_55:4
captains, 1
2Ch_11:11
excellent, 1
Pro_8:6
leaders, 1
2Ch_32:21
nobles, 1
Job_29:10
princes, 1
Psa_76:12
rulers, 1
2Ch_35:8


The fact that the passage clearly speaks of sacrifices being cut off shows they were being practiced.This has resulted in the invention of Christ ministering in the heavenly sanctuary doctrine and also the prediction that a temple will have to be rebuilt in Jerusalem for antichrist to come and desecrate and cause those sacrifices to cease.Both theories deny the context of Daniel 8 and 9 and ignore the simple explanation that this prophecy happened in the past and was accomplished by Antiochus IV.

This explanation requires no spiritualization of what sacrifices mean nor any false idea that God would be accepting sacrifices after His Son had made the supreme and once and for all sacrifice for our sins.Nor does it require any gaps in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

Hebrews 9:
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Very late to the party but here is my 2c:

Daniel 9 - Notes on.


The timeline given in Daniel 8 is very clear and simple.The angel Gabriel begins to explain the vision to Daniel and says:

Daniel 8:
18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

N.B. It was about 300 years from the time of this vision to the time of the accomplishment of it.

What was said of the ram previously closely matches what was said in Daniel 7 about the second world ruling kingdom which is also supported by the vision of Daniel 2.Read and compare:

Daniel 8:
3Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

Daniel 7:
5And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Raised up on one side is showing an uneven condition just as the horns were not even.These are references to the same kingdom.

Daniel 2:
38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The scripture above shows the progression of the four world ruling kingdoms of men unto the kingdom of God.That the kingdom of Babylon ruled by Nebuchadnezzar is the first is clear.History also shows that it is the kingdom of the Medes and Persians which is the second kingdom.The breast and arms of silver,the bear raised up on one side and the ram with two uneven horns all refer to this kingdom.

If we were unsure about this then the further explanation of the angel in Daniel 8 would remove this uncertainty.He further explains:

Daniel 8:
21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Who was the first king of the world ruling kingdom of Greece?Again history is clear and this is a reference to Alexander the Great.What happened to his kingdom?

Daniel 8:
22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

All of this is clearly confirmed again by history as Alexander's kingdom was divided eventually into four kingdoms which did not have the power he had.It is out of one of these kingdoms that the little horn of Daniel 8,comes.

Daniel 8:
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The description of the little horn gives a clearer picture of the situation.

Daniel 8:
8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The historical timeline and actions of Antiochus IV fully matches with the description given about the little horn in Daniel 8.Any other interpretation will have to tear away the little horn from the context given in the passage.

The fact that Daniel 9 is a further explanation of the vision of Daniel 8 is seen in the statement:

Daniel 9:
21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

Notice what had occurred concerning the vision of Daniel 8:

Dan 8:
16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Gabriel was the one tasked to give Daniel understanding of the vision.

Dan 8:
27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Even though Gabriel gave the interpretation of the vision Daniel still did not understand aspects of the same and hence Gabriel has returned to complete what was started in Daniel 8.


Hence there are several reasons why the explanation of Daniel 9 could not be a reference to the Lord Jesus and the most obvious one is because it is an explanation of the vision of Daniel 8,whose timeline does not extend to the time of the Lord Jesus.

Also it is claimed that "anoint the most Holy"(Daniel 9:24) refers to the anointing of the Lord Jesus at his baptism.However the term used refers to the anointing of a thing and not a person.

the most holy - (Strong's,6944;qôdesh,from 6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity:


Hence this could not be a reference to the Lord Jesus but refers to the restoration of the temple after its desecration.

Also the term "Messiah the Prince" is not specific to the Lord Jesus and is used to refer to the high priest and the ruler of the temple.(See,Leviticus 4:3;II Chronicles 31:12,13)

Messiah - (Strong's,4899)mâshîyach;from 4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: -


Total KJV Occurrences: 39
anointed, 37
Lev_4:3, Lev_4:5, Lev_4:16, Lev_6:22, 1Sa_2:10, 1Sa_2:35, 1Sa_12:3, 1Sa_24:5-6 (4), 1Sa_24:10, 1Sa_26:9, 1Sa_26:11, 1Sa_26:16, 1Sa_26:23, 2Sa_1:14, 2Sa_1:16, 2Sa_19:21 (2), 2Sa_22:51, 2Sa_23:1, 1Ch_16:22, 2Ch_6:42, Psa_2:2, Psa_18:50, Psa_20:6, Psa_84:8-9 (2), Psa_89:38, Psa_89:51, Psa_105:15, Psa_132:10, Psa_132:17, Isa_45:1, Lam_4:20, Hab_3:13
messiah, 2
Dan_9:25-26 (2)


the Prince - (Strong's,5057)nâgîyd nâgid;from 5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstract plural), honorable themes:

Total KJV Occurrences: 47
ruler, 19
1Sa_25:30, 2Sa_6:21, 2Sa_7:8, 1Ki_1:35, 1Ch_5:2, 1Ch_9:11, 1Ch_9:20, 1Ch_11:2, 1Ch_17:7, 1Ch_26:24, 1Ch_27:4, 1Ch_27:16, 1Ch_28:4, 2Ch_6:5, 2Ch_11:22, 2Ch_31:11-13 (3), Neh_11:11
prince, 8
1Ki_14:7, 1Ki_16:2, Job_31:37, Pro_28:16, Eze_28:2, Dan_9:25-26 (2), Dan_11:22
captain, 5
1Sa_9:16, 1Sa_10:1, 1Sa_13:14, 2Sa_5:2, 2Ki_20:5
chief, 3
1Ch_5:2, 1Ch_29:22, Jer_20:1
governor, 3
1Ch_29:22, 2Ch_28:7, Jer_20:1
leader, 3
1Ch_12:27, 1Ch_13:1, Isa_55:4
captains, 1
2Ch_11:11
excellent, 1
Pro_8:6
leaders, 1
2Ch_32:21
nobles, 1
Job_29:10
princes, 1
Psa_76:12
rulers, 1
2Ch_35:8


The fact that the passage clearly speaks of sacrifices being cut off shows they were being practiced.This has resulted in the invention of Christ ministering in the heavenly sanctuary doctrine and also the prediction that a temple will have to be rebuilt in Jerusalem for antichrist to come and desecrate and cause those sacrifices to cease.Both theories deny the context of Daniel 8 and 9 and ignore the simple explanation that this prophecy happened in the past and was accomplished by Antiochus IV.

This explanation requires no spiritualization of what sacrifices mean nor any false idea that God would be accepting sacrifices after His Son had made the supreme and once and for all sacrifice for our sins.Nor does it require any gaps in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

Hebrews 9:
11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hi safswan, welcome to the forum.

The little horn in Daniel 8 cannot be Antiochus because the vision of the little horn committing the transgression of desolation is said to be end times in the text.

The transgression of desolation is the act in 2Thessalonians2:4 of the person going into the temple sitting, claiming to be God, revealing himself as the man of sin. A future event of Paul's time.

The Abomination of Desolation (the one that takes place in the end times in Daniel 12 ) is different, although related. It will be the image of the beast that the false prophet makes.

messiah, mashaich, means anointed, agreed. But when speaking of "the" messiah, in Judaism, it is a reference to the promised great King of Israel to lead them and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety among other things.

This concept is found in the new testament as well, with the term "Christ".

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

In John 12:12-15
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,
15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Mark 15:32
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

So the concept of "the messiah" was broadly known to be the promised great King of Israel. Which the coming person called the Anti-chirst will be someone who will be anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against the rightful King of Israel - Jesus.

It is one role of the person. Being the little horn and later as the beast, different from being the King of Israel, is to be the King of the Roman Empire in the end times.

It looks like this. little horn (7th Julio Claudian King of the Roman Empire) > prince who shall come (a transitional role following Gog/Magog) > to becoming the Antichrist, King of Israel > revealed man of sin (a transitional role, ending his Antichrist role) > to becoming the beast, the 8th Julio Claudian King of the Roman Empire.
 
Upvote 0

safswan

Active Member
Nov 15, 2005
383
131
58
✟30,710.00
Faith
Christian
The little horn in Daniel 8 cannot be Antiochus because the vision of the little horn committing the transgression of desolation is said to be end times in the text.

Good day Doug,

The phrase, "...O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision",(Daniel 8:17) is one which causes much misunderstanding but if we carefully notice the timeline given in the vision itself then we can avoid much confusion.Before further explanation can you say how do you understand Daniel 8 relates to Daniel 9.

messiah, mashaich, means anointed, agreed. But when speaking of "the" messiah, in Judaism, it is a reference to the promised great King of Israel to lead them and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety among other things.


Again this is a term which also causes misunderstanding.Can you at least acknowledge that this term is used of others in scripture and is only translated as, "the Messiah", in this passage because of what the translators may have interpreted the passage to mean?

Lev 4:
3IfH518 the priestH3548 that is anointedH4899 do sinH2398 according to the sinH819 of the people;H5971 then let him bringH7126 forH5921 his sin,H2403 whichH834 he hath sinned,H2398 a youngH1121 H1241 bullockH6499 without blemishH8549 unto the LORDH3068 for a sin offering.H2403

II Chronicles 31:
12And brought inH935 (H853) the offeringsH8641 and the tithesH4643 and the dedicatedH6944 things faithfully:H530 overH5921 which CononiahH3562 the LeviteH3878 was ruler,H5057 and ShimeiH8096 his brotherH251 was the next.H4932
13And Jehiel,H3171 and Azaziah,H5812 and Nahath,H5184 and Asahel,H6214 and Jerimoth,H3406 and Jozabad,H3107 and Eliel,H447 and Ismachiah,H3253 and Mahath,H4287 and Benaiah,H1141 were overseersH6496 under the handH4480 H3027 of CononiahH3562 and ShimeiH8096 his brother,H251 at the commandmentH4662 of HezekiahH3169 the king,H4428 and AzariahH5838 the rulerH5057 of the houseH1004 of God.H430


Dan 9:
25KnowH3045 therefore and understand,H7919 that fromH4480 the going forthH4161 of the commandmentH1697 to restoreH7725 and to buildH1129 JerusalemH3389 untoH5704 the MessiahH4899 the PrinceH5057 shall be sevenH7651 weeks,H7620 and threescoreH8346 and twoH8147 weeks:H7620 the streetH7339 shall be builtH1129 again,H7725 and the wall,H2742 even in troublousH6695 times.H6256

Why was the word,not translated as Messiah in the many other passages in which it was used?
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Good day Doug,

Why was the word,not translated as Messiah in the many other passages in which it was used?
One can always read the Orthodox Jewish Bible which uses "Moshiach"

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

Leviticus 4 Orthodox Jewish Bible

Leviticus 4:3 If the Kohen HaMoshiach [anointed priest, i.e. Kohen Gadol; T.N. see Ps 110:4 on the Moshiach Kohen] do sin,

Daniel 9 Orthodox Jewish Bible

Daniel 25 Have da'as, therefore, and get seichel, that from the going forth of the decree to restore and to rebuild Yerushalayim unto Moshiach/anointed Nagid shall be shivah heptads

.
Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

This is a translation from an interlinear with the strong's # included so others here can determine better how to translate it. Comments?

Daniel 9:25

And thou shall know<3045 and shall be intelligent<7919>
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-20#post-73080760
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-20#post-73081054

3045 yada` yaw-dah' a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) (as follow):--acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware.................
7919 sakal saw-kal' a primitive root; to be (causatively, make or act) circumspect and hence, intelligent:--consider, expert, instruct, prosper, (deal) prudent(-ly), (give) skill(-ful), have good success, teach, (have, make to) understand(-ing), wisdom, (be, behave self, consider, make) wise(- ly), guide wittingly.

from going forth<4161> the word<1697>
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-20#post-73081370

4161 mowtsa' mo-tsaw' or motsai {mo-tsaw'}; from 3318; a going forth, i.e. (the act) an egress, or (the place) an exit; hence, a source or product; specifically, dawn, the rising of the sun (the East),
1697 dabar daw-baw' from 1696; a word; by implication, a matter (as spoken of) or thing; adverbially, a cause:--commandment, X commune(-ication), + concern(-ing), + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed,

to return of<7725 and to build<1129> of Jerusalem<3389>
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-21#post-73081936
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-21#post-73082518

7725 shuwb shoob a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbial, again:--.............................
1129 banah baw-naw' a primitive root; to build (literally and figuratively):--(begin to) build(-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), X surely.
3389 Yruwshalaim yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im rarely Yruwshalayim {yer-oo- shaw-lah'-yim}; a dual (in allusion to its two main hills (the true pointing, at least of the former reading, seems to be that of 3390)); probably from (the passive participle of) 3384 and 7999; founded peaceful; Jerushalaim or Jerushalem, the capital city of Palestine:--Jerusalem.

until<5704> anointed/messiah<4899>- chief/ruler<5057>
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-22#post-73083777
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-22#post-73084252

4899 mashiyach maw-shee'-akh from 4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically, the Messiah:--anointed, Messiah.
5057 nagiyd naw-gheed' or nagid {naw-gheed'}; from 5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstractly, plural), honorable themes:--captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.

sevens<7620> seven<7651> and sevens<7620> sixty<8346> and-two<8147
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-23#post-73084712

7620 shabuwa` shaw-boo'-ah or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of 7650 as a denominative of 7651; literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):--
7651 sheba` sheh'-bah or (masculine) shibrah {shib-aw'}; from 7650; a primitive cardinal number; seven (as the sacred full one); also (adverbially) seven times; by implication, a week; by extension, an indefinite number:--(+ by) seven(-fold),-s, (-teen, -teenth), -th, times). Compare 7658.

she shall turn-back/return<7725>
and she is built<1129> broad-place/street<7339> and incised<2742>
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-weeks-of-dan-9.8077710/page-23#post-73085053

7725 shuwb shoob a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbial, again:-

1129 banah baw-naw' a primitive root; to build (literally and figuratively):--(begin to) build(-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), X surely.
7339 rchob rekh-obe' or rchowb {rekh-obe'}; from 7337; a width, i.e. (concretely) avenue or area:--broad place (way), street. See also 1050.
2742 charuwts khaw-roots' or charuts {khaw-roots'}; passive participle of 2782; properly, incised or (active) incisive; hence (as noun masculine or feminine) a trench (as dug), gold (as mined), a threshing-sledge (having sharp teeth); (figuratively) determination; also eager:-

even in constraint<6695> of the times<6256>.
6695 tsowq tsoke or (feminine) tsuwqah {tsoo-kaw'}; from 6693; a strait, i.e. (figuratively) distress:--anguish, X troublous.
6256 `eth ayth from 5703; time, especially (adverb with preposition) now, when, etc.:--+ after, (al-)ways, X certain, + continually, + evening, long, (due) season, so (long) as, (even-, evening-, noon-)tide, ((meal-)), what) time, when.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Good day Doug,

The phrase, "...O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision",(Daniel 8:17) is one which causes much misunderstanding but if we carefully notice the timeline given in the vision itself then we can avoid much confusion.Before further explanation can you say how do you understand Daniel 8 relates to Daniel 9.
I understand Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 12 - to all end with the Kingdom of God being brought here to earth with Jesus's return, to be the ruling Kingdom over all the kingdoms of the earth.

So each of those chapters build to that end. Ezekiel 38-39 does the same, and contains the before, the 7 years, and the end - with Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to earth (at the end of the 7 years sometime in the near future)

We are currently in the before stage. Israel a nation again, Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews. Russia, Iran, Turkey involved in the middle east on Israel's doorstep.

In Daniel 8:9 the little horn person heads to south east toward Israel. It says he waxes strong, which imo means he has a powerful army. Related to Daniel 9, that is him as the prince who shall come.

The question is - as friend or foe?

A little bit about what the Jews think about the messiah. They believe that the person will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. This is summarized by one of their main theologians, the Rambam.

In Daniel 8:23, at the end of their kingdom (the EU in its final form) when the transgressors have come to full (the ten kings in place) the little horn person stands up - which is an idiom for prepares to go to war.

In Daniel 8:9, he does this from the territory of one of the four breakup kingdoms (of Alexander), which Greece fits the location north and west of Israel. Greece also happens to be the eastern most frontier of the EU.

Since the person has to be a Jew, he will stage his EU army in Greece as a deterrent to Gog/Magog. Whether he actually engages Gog/Magog is not for certain.

In the after math of Gog/Magog attack on Israel, and God's destruction of them, the little horn person as the prince who come, enters the middle east, secures all the oil for the EU.

And Israel and the Jews, because of his "intentions" to fight the battles of God in defending Israel, will believe that he is the messiah. Part of the reasoning will be that
messiah fever will be running through Israel at the time, because many of the Jews believe that the messianic age follows Gog/Magog.

These things are highly connected and is not random speculation.

And is totally reliable because of the concrete for certain of Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned, and recounting the past 2000 years of why Israel was scattered into the nations for rejecting him.

Ezekiel 39:17-20, is the Revelation feast on the dead bodies at the end of the 7 years, following Gog/Magog. Corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18.
_________________________________________________________________

Wait, there's more! So the little horn person become the King of Israel. And restarts the animal sacrifices. But he goes bad along the line, and in the middle of the 7 years thinks he has achieved God-hood.

It appears that will be the case because it says in Daniel 8, his success is not his own, and that he is into craft, and understanding dark sentences. Which the Jewish rendition of this is Kabbalah... which in Kabbalah there is the belief that the power of the angels can be harnessed to do the will of an advanced practitioner.

In Judaism, to even be taught Kabbalah, a person has to be 40 years old. This stems from there is apparently the chance going down a dangerous path. There is an interesting read on the internet about such a claimed experience Dreaming of Moshiach: The Story: Rise and Fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina

In Daniel 8, it says the little horn person magnifies himself in his heart. Which from 2Thessalonians2:4 thinks he has achieved God-hood.

The Jews will be mortified by that action, and will reject him from continuing as their king. Actually there was a similar rejection of a thought to be messiah in Simon bar Koshba, when he went bad, paranoid, and had one of the most respected rabbi's executed. Which he lost support at that point by the rabbi's that he was the messiah. (btw, guess who lead the claim that Simon bar Koshba was the messiah? Rabbi Akiva, leading the Kabbalist is his day)

"magninfiying himself in his heart" is a key phrase, as what happens to the person.

In Ezekiel 28, 1-10, under the code name of the prince of Tyre, God is angry that the person claims to be God - because he magnifies himself in his heart - and thinks of himself as more knowledgeable than Daniel, an implication of his understanding dark sentences in Daniel 8.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

So God will have the person killed...

Ezekiel 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Then the person finds his soul in hell, in Isaiah 14. In Isaiah 14:19-20, God, in disdain for the person, doesn't let him rest there, but brings him back to life. Which in Revelation 13, is the person coming back to life as the beast.

Okay, that is a lot to digest. Here is a chart I made of the path of the person to his destruction, on the way to the time of the great tribulation. On the right is being the King of the Roman Empire. On the left is being the King of Israel.


upload_2019-5-26_14-21-21.png
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Again this is a term which also causes misunderstanding.Can you at least acknowledge that this term is used of others in scripture and is only translated as, "the Messiah", in this passage because of what the translators may have interpreted the passage to mean?
Probably so. But being cutoff but not for himself fits Jesus.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Here is a second chart I had made picking up from when the abomination of desolation is setup, triggering the great tribulation.

It took me 5 minutes to copy and paste the charts.... And 50 years to know what to put on them.
upload_2019-5-26_14-52-17.png
 
Upvote 0

safswan

Active Member
Nov 15, 2005
383
131
58
✟30,710.00
Faith
Christian
Upvote 0

safswan

Active Member
Nov 15, 2005
383
131
58
✟30,710.00
Faith
Christian
I understand Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 12 - to all end with the Kingdom of God being brought here to earth with Jesus's return, to be the ruling Kingdom over all the kingdoms of the earth.

And here is how I see the chapters and hence the reason for my question:

It is clear from the interpretations of the visions that were given that the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2 were associated with Daniel’s vision in Daniel 7.This is seen in the following statements:

Daniel 2:
36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Daniel 7:
16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom,and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.


Both clearly refer to four kingdoms ruling the earth after which the kingdom of God is inaugurated as God destroys the kingdom of men. The interpretation of Daniel 8 is entirely different as there is no mention of four successive world ruling kingdoms. The interpretation
identifies two successive kingdoms with the second being divided into four and then another king rising from one of the four.


Daniel 8:
21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first King.
22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the Nation, but not in his power.
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance , and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


There is no other kingdom mentioned after Grecia.The four divisions are divisions of Grecia.The king of fierce countenance is a king still in Grecia. Notice the pattern:

Daniel 2 has an image of four metals, gold , silver, brass and iron(iron and clay) representing four kingdoms ruling the earth.

Daniel 7 has four beasts,a lion with eagle's wings, a bear raised on one side, a leopard, with four wings of a fowl and also four heads and a fourth beast described as dreadful and terrible with great iron teeth.


Daniel 8 however has only 2 animals; one described as, a ram which had two horns and the other, an he goat with a notable horn between his eyes. The two kingdoms are clearly identified as Media/Persia and Grecia. There is no other kingdom mentioned here and to introduce
another would be going against the pattern seen in the previous
visions and going against the plain interpretation given in Daniel 8.When examined carefully it is the vision of Daniel 8 which
helps to establish the identity of the kingdoms and sequence of rule which is represented in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7.


Just as the ten horns plus another little horn are all kings in the fourth kingdom (Daniel 7:7, 8)so it is that the four horns plus another little horn are all kings in the kingdom of Grecia.(Daniel 8: 8,9, 21-23)

The fact that Daniel had the vision, “AFTER THE ONE THAT HAD ALREADY APPEARED TO ME”, does not mean it is the same events being depicted in the vision and says nothing about its connection or association with the previous vision.


Based on this clear evidence, I would say:

Daniel 2 gives a broad overview of the various kingdoms and aspects of the characteristics of the same.

Daniel 7 highlights other characteristics and supplies some identifying features of the same four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 2.It also gives more details about activities in the fourth kingdom and how the saints are affected.

Daniel 8 identifies two of the kingdoms of the four and also gives details of activities of a particular king in one of the kingdoms and how he severely affects the people of God.

Daniel 9 is a further explanation of Daniel 8 as it goes into more details of some aspects of Daniel 8.It explains how the king of fierce countenance would be able to have a sanctuary to trod under foot when none existed at the time Daniel received the vision of Daniel 8.(II Kings 25:8,9)
 
Upvote 0

safswan

Active Member
Nov 15, 2005
383
131
58
✟30,710.00
Faith
Christian
Probably so. But being cutoff but not for himself fits Jesus.

This cannot be the only criteria used to determine to whom this is referring.The primary criteria must be to identify the timeline and look for the person therein.Within the timeline of Antiochus IV there are figures which fit the criteria.

Here is a second chart I had made picking up from when the abomination of desolation is setup, triggering the great tribulation.

It took me 5 minutes to copy and paste the charts.... And 50 years to know what to put on them.

I understand it must have taken a lot of hard work to arrive at your positions and to construct your charts.It will take sometime for me to review them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Both clearly refer to four kingdoms ruling the earth after which the kingdom of God is inaugurated as God destroys the kingdom of men. The interpretation of Daniel 8 is entirely different as there is no mention of four successive world ruling kingdoms. The interpretation
identifies two successive kingdoms with the second being divided into four and then another king rising from one of the four.
Daniel 8 is not entirely different. It is includes at the start two of the kingdoms of Daniel 2 and 7, Persian and Greece. The vision of the transgression by the little horn jumps to the end times.

Daniel 8 identifies two of the kingdoms of the four and also gives details of activities of a particular king in one of the kingdoms and how he severely affects the people of God.
Start from the end of Daniel 8 and work back.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Doesn't fit Antiochus. Antiochus also backed down from the Romans, the fourth kingdom, the famous line in the sand incident.

Antiochus, prior to his becoming king, was a political hostage to the Romans, due to a treaty forced on his father in order to keep his father in line.

The Lord had not entered the world to be born of Mary, back in Antiochus's day. Jesus is the Prince of princes. Antiochus doesn't fit. And even so, his kingdom was subject to the Romans, the fourth kingdom.

Daniel 8:23 is end times. Daniel 8:22 is historic (to us).
The kingdom in Daniel 8:23 is the kingdom of the transgressors...as it says the latter time of "their" kingdom. The EU started out as the common market, then evolved into European Economic Community, then the EU.

The vision of the transgression of desolation is time of the end.
 
Upvote 0