Why Abortion Should Be Allowed in the Early Stages

Strong in Him · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
The difference is that a baby expelled from the womb in the fist and second trimesters is not viable, as such, it is not murder, at that time.

Expelled from the womb; miscarriage.
Forced from the womb so it can no longer develop and grow; abortion.
The first is spontaneous, accidental; the second occurs after human intervention.

Davidnic · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Wrong. Jesus was Jesus in Mary's womb because, as the eternal Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity, He is eternal, with no beginning or end. As He said to the Father in John 17:4-5, "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Wait are you denying the Hypostatic Union in the womb? All of ancient Christianity held the Annunciation as the moment of the Incarnation. That is the understanding of Nicea.

DamianWarS · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
In the third trimester, the baby is viable and can survive outside the womb, which is why it would be murder, in my opinion, to have an abortion at that late stage.

The difference is that a baby expelled from the womb in the fist and second trimesters is not viable, as such, it is not murder, at that time.

I get your logic, but right now that's all it is, a logic based argument of defining when life should not be terminated based on the survivability outside the womb but this is not a biblically based argument. You mentioned ensoulment as your biblical connection and have arbitrarily linked this event to the 3ird trimester. Why is ensoulment triggered at the 3ird trimester? because this aspect of your argument is weak and needs to be unpacked more.

the creation account of man from dust shows us something without life then breathed in life; inanimate to animate. without life or inanimate are not descriptors of the development of a child in the womb so this part of your argument does not fit. It feels like your starting point is in favour of abortion before the 3ird trimester, then you just start looking for some scripture that fits this, this is using scripture as a pretext. We shouldn't draw our conclusions first then look at scripture, instead look at scripture and let the chips fall where they may.

Shimokita · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
By give up bodily autonomy, I mean be forced to have their body used as a vessel for other purposes, such as the harvesting of an organ, or the forced implantation of something.

Hmm. Your definitions are getting narrower and narrower.

How about implanting convicted child rapists with a microchip to track their location and ensure that they do not go near schools or other places with children? I have nothing against it, nor would many others.

Besides, a ban on abortion is not equivalent to harvesting an organ or forced implantation. It is not as though the state takes a virgin and implants a fertilized egg in her womb.

Perhaps you can make the “forced implantation” analogy in the case of rape, but that’s about it.

Shimokita · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Augustine and Aquinas would like a word, so would Genesis 2:7, which shows that only people with souls count as living human beings, and ensoulment doesn’t happen until sometime after formation and conception.

Your use of Genesis 2:7 to justify early term abortion is pretty amusing friend. Honestly, nobody here is going to take that seriously. Some of your other arguments are better, I would stick with those.

Mountainmanbob · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder

, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

On this early going to church Sunday morning praying for you.
M-Bob

BrotherD · May 26, 2019

What does the scriptures say?

Rebekah had two nations in her womb and the Lord viewed them as living beings just like us.

Genesis 25:23 KJV — And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Manoah and his wife, had a promise from God before conception that their son Samson would be a Nazarite from the womb.

Judges 13:5 KJV — For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Job 31:15 KJV — Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Psalm 22:10 KJV — I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalm 139:13 KJV — For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Isaiah 44:24 KJV — Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Our Saviour was prophesied before he was even created.

Luke 1:31 KJV — And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Matthew 1:23 KJV — Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

As Christians we should trust in the Lord in all things, even when it comes to our children at the time of conception. Even if it means our life or our child's life. Thus saith the Lord:

Ezekiel 18:4 KJV — Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

1 Samuel 2:6
The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliever out of my hand.

Job 33:4 KJV — The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Semper-Fi · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [soul].

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them
(your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

a [living soul] nephesh, Man and animal are both breathing animals or souls.

The word “soul” is translated from Hebrew, the word nephesh. The Hebrew nephesh merely means a breathing animal.

Animals are called nephesh in: Genesis 1:20, “moving creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);
Genesis 1:21, “great whales, and every living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh);
Genesis 1:24, “living creature” (Hebrew, nephesh).

The translators in translating into the English language used the English word “creaturebut in Genesis 2:7 they translated the same nephesh into the English word “soul”
—man became a “living soul” (nephesh).

The word nephesh literally means “life of animals,” referring to physical life and
not spirit - Satan’s lie to mother Eve that man is immortal and cannot die.

God blew air—“the breath of life” containing oxygen—into the man’s lungs
through his nostrils, and the man began to live!

Ronald · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

God creates life upon conception and it is God who has authority to take it away! The moment that sperm enters the womb, that fetus' life begins to develop. This process of growth is ordained by God. HE STARTS IT AND CONSTRUCTS IT IN THE WOMB. Note: These cells do not function on their own, create themselves, decipher genetic codes, while manufacturing amino acids, proteins, organs, systems and features simultaneously by themselves. They do not have a cell foreman that gives instructions to the cells of how to construct this human with a general message: "If any of you cells have any questions, refer to the code!" LOL Do you realize just how complex one cell is? And we have trillions. If you magnified one cell to a 10 mile radius, you would see hundreds of factories, thousands of molecular machines made up of 100 billion atoms. It is far more complicated than any machine man has ever made! These molecular machines within the cell contain self repairing, adaptive, reproductive mechanisms which are armed with antibodies. The precision and order is so complicated in one cell, and billions of cells are also being created with different designs and order simultaneously to create different organs and systems within such a short time that it can only be attributed to a Supreme Being who oversees this process. As it has been stated since the beginning, it's A MIRACLE!
Question: What do you think God's intentions are for beginning this process? To finish it through! He has a purpose for this individual that He has ordained to exist even BEFORE CONCEPTION OCCURRED. Yes, we are predestined. He knows us before we were even conceived. How is this possible? He lives outside our time domain. He is not confined to time as we know it. He sees the beginning from the end. He knows the day you will die and how. He ordered the genetic code by combining qualities and features, from each parent and joined them together to create a unique being. These design plans were already drafted at that moment of conception. AND YOU, CLUELESS TO THE WHOLE PROCESS, STEPS IN AND SAYS, "LET'S HALT GOD'S PLAN AND PROCESS! NOT THIS ONE GOD _ WE HAVE AUTHORITY OVER YOU _ WE MAKE THE LAWS ON EARTH AND SO STEP ASIDE! THIS ONE IS NOT GOING TO LIVE!" HOW DARE WE DO THIS?

Go ahead, you do what you think is right. Try to justify it with all your human peon opinions, add a few peon quotes to support your position. In the end, you will see God face to face and then He will ask you, why? What will you say then? "Well Augustine said this, Thomas Aquinas said that. Jacqes Martin said this also .. ??? And besides all that, it's a woman's choice!" Oh Boy, I wanna be there for that one!

Week 12 - Month 3 fingernails and toenails appear Fetal information over weeks months trimesters

zoidar · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

A question for you: When technology advances and we can save much younger children, doesn't that mean technology decides when it's murder and when it isn't?

Can that be right?

GenemZ · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Jeremiah 1:5 does not prove we have souls at conception, just that God predestined the life of Jeremiah to be a prophet, which as a Calvinist I have no problem with.

Nobody analyzes what it says...

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

We are our soul. Before the fetus was formed in Jeremiah's womb... The Lord what?

Before Jeremiah's body was being formed? God already knew Jeremiah. His soul. The soul that is breathed into the emerging body "from the womb."

God created the male and female souls in Genesis 1:27. A body for the souls were provided in the next chapter. The soul was 'created out from nothing." (bara) Yet, the body was provided from what had already been created. The body was not created out from nothing by God like the soul was. One is temporal (body). The other is everlasting (soul).

And, keep in mind. Someone better have a perfectly valid reason for any abortion. Its not to be used simply for birth control as its being promoted today. Your teaching can easily be abused and be seen by God as murder when the mental attitude is wrong after having the Biblical facts. It would be like Satan telling the Lord to jump off the high wall because of what Scriptures teach about God's protection.

Don't be dumb. Be wise and filled with love. Not just cold logic.

CallingAntioch · May 26, 2019

A child isn't fully formed yet, but we don't normalize the killing of toddlers. Yet, here we are in today's society which thinks that just because an infant in the womb is dependent on his/her mother, that it's OK to murder it because it's inconvenient to the mother. A mother is obligated to protect her child, not murder it.

GenemZ · May 26, 2019

Ronald said:
God creates life upon conception and it is God who has authority to take it away! The moment that sperm enters the womb, that fetus' life begins to develop. This process of growth is ordained by God. HE STARTS IT AND CONSTRUCTS IT IN THE WOMB

Look... I am not trying to be an antagonist here. I am sticking with the Bible.

Biological life begins at conception. Human life only begins when God imputes the soul to that biological life.

The body of Adam was lifeless and laying on the ground. Lifeless.

Not until the Lord breathed into the nostrils the human soul and spirit did Adam become the man who he was.

We need to better understand what human life is. We all understand biological life.

Jesus did not save your body. He saved your soul. On the Cross he crucified all our bodies so that our souls could live eternally.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live,
but Christ lives in me." Gal 2:20a

We keep getting our physical "I" confused with the essence of who we really are. That being, the soul "I."

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts
on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." Col 3:1-3

Biological life is not the issue with God. God already sees our physical body as useless and dead. Only by His power of grace can our bodies be made to function in an acceptable way induced by God. Stillborn is God's way of say that the biological life is not what he loves. Its the soul in a body that causes God to love that person. Or, hate that person if that soul desires to be only evil.

God now sees our bodies as being dead.

Its our souls being made alive in the Spirit. Our bodies have been executed/crucified with Christ. Its the SOUL that is precious to God. For that very soul will be given a new type of resurrection body that will enable our soul to experience life so wonderfully as we can not even begin to imagine, nor dream.

In the mean time.. Not until God imputes the soul to the fetus when emerging from the womb (ek koliah) does God see a human being.

We as believers need to get this much right. Then a sound determination can be made. For the simple "life begins at conception" concept holds no power unless its what the Bible teaches. It does not teach that.

God wants us to become wise with His Word. If we do? It will confound and frustrate the evil liberals when we are made free from their stupid taunts because of knowing the Truth.

And, God only blesses truth, not good intentions. Keep in mind. Cain had good intentions when he offered his vegetables.

Albion · May 26, 2019

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · May 26, 2019

SPF said:
There you go again ignoring all the posts that deal with those points. You clearly are not here to do anything but pontificate and repeat.

Perhaps I am on his ignore list too?

GenemZ · May 26, 2019

Albion said:
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

That means? Before there was any body the real Jeremiah was already known by God.

That real Jeremiah is Jeremiah's soul.

He will have a new different type of body in the resurrection, but the soul will be the same Jeremiah.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · May 26, 2019

Abortion doesn't keep you from becoming a parent. It only makes you the parent of a dead child.

GenemZ · May 26, 2019

SPF said:
There you go again ignoring all the posts that deal with those points. You clearly are not here to do anything but pontificate and repeat.

Typical of Democrats these days.

Semper-Fi · May 26, 2019

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life”
(Exodus 21:22-23)

Paul told Timothy that in the last days perilous times
shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves [very selfish and self-centered] disobedient to parents

"Without natural affection … incontinent [ without self-
control], fierce [or brutal] … [lovers of pleasures] more than lovers of God” (2 Timothy 3:1-4).

These are the very attitudes that lead to illicit sex, un-
wanted babies and brutal abortions—all signs that confirm we are living in the last days.

Ecc. 11:5: “As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything"

God says we don’t know how, but we know when a child receives the human spirit: when it’s in the womb.
The "SPIRIT in Man"

Not when it takes its first breath. God started the breathing process by blowing air into Adams lungs only

All good Bible dictionaries show that the word soul defines any living thing composed of flesh and blood—including animals. The soul is composed wholly of matter. In other words, man, like any animal,is a soul.
-

The vast majority of abortions—about 95 percent—
are induced as a callous means of birth control!

Just The Facts

Day 1: The sperm penetrates the egg and a cell is
formed containing 46 chromosomes (23 from the
father and 23 from the mother) with about 30,000
genes that shape the genetic blueprint of the baby.

From the moment of conception, physical characteristics such as the sex, facial features, body type and color of hair, eyes and skin are determined.

Even aspects of intelligence and personality are conveyed through this genetic code!

longwait · May 26, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

You can justify it as much as you want but only God has the right to take life.

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