Womens roles in the church

yeshuaslavejeff · May 21, 2019

~Cassia~ said:
I can't contribute much to this because I believe that Paul was speaking metaphorically about Christ and the church with whatever he was talking about. IOW we are all the women and only the Holy Spirit is to teach.

~Cassia~ said:
For instance .... we should be conscious that everything that is said to the church is meant for everyone. Some if not many consciences are veiled.

I haven't looked nor tried to look up the references again, but I think this/these posts
are from a heresy that came up a few decades ago.
I did not realize it had surfaced again.

The heresy itself is not needed to know, and may not be known at all by anyone now
- just compare what is posted with Scripture.

Because it is not in line with Scripture, it is not correct.

bekkilyn · May 21, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
I rightly divided the word of truth as I have sought to do for about 30 years.

Also the word fear means, (in Greek)

“from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:--be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.“(Strong’s)

So again you are in error.

And you use the word “respect”

Again you error, consider,

James 2:1. My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.”(from THE Bible, The King James Bible)

And

James 2:8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”

Oh I see, you're KJVO.

That explains a lot. No wonder you're so convinced of your "truth".

LoveofTruth said:
I rightly divided the word of truth as I have sought to do for about 30 years.

Also the word fear means, (in Greek)

“from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:--be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.“(Strong’s)

So again you are in error.

And you use the word “respect”

Again you error, consider,

James 2:1. My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.”(from THE Bible, The King James Bible)

And

James 2:8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”

Strong's Concordance
phobos: panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror
Original Word: φόβος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: phobos
Phonetic Spelling: (fob'-os)
Definition: panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror
Usage: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.

Unless you believe that God is the "Lord of Terror", then maybe it would be healthy to start viewing him in a more positive sense, rather than one that is contradictory to his very nature as our loving, heavenly Father, and the Spirit who guides us, and the Son who humbled himself to serve us and compassionately shares with us our suffering.

bekkilyn · May 21, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
And the gospel is this,

1 Corinthians 15:1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:5.”

Which is all very consistent with John 3:16-17 and John 13:34.

The gospel is about deliverance from bondage and not putting oneself back into it.

LoveofTruth · May 21, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Oh I see, you're KJVO.

That explains a lot. No wonder you're so convinced of your "truth".

Strong's Concordance
phobos: panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror
Original Word: φόβος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: phobos
Phonetic Spelling: (fob'-os)
Definition: panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror
Usage: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.

Unless you believe that God is the "Lord of Terror", then maybe it would be healthy to start viewing him in a more positive sense, rather than one that is contradictory to his very nature as our loving, heavenly Father, and the Spirit who guides us, and the Son who humbled himself to serve us and compassionately shares with us our suffering.

Unless you know the bible well you should pause before you comment about these serious matters,

Romans 11:22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:...”

2 Corinthians 5:9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Matthew 10:28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

bekkilyn · May 21, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Unless you know the bible well you should pause before you comment about these serious matters,

Romans 11:22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:...”

2 Corinthians 5:9. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Matthew 10:28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Again, John 3:16-17 and John 13:34. The very essence of the gospel.

Paidiske · May 21, 2019

It is so tedious and disheartening to have to deal with the same arguments over and over and over again; just to try to allow a little breathing room in which women might not have their basic human dignity crushed from them.

I read these threads and I get to a point where I think; there is nothing to be said that can possibly be helpful, except that I know there are others reading along who don't post, but who are encouraged by the fact that some of us are willing to stand up to such an oppressive reading of Scripture.

But when Scripture itself is dismissed or explained away, I feel like in the end the best thing I can possibly do is live my actual life with integrity, be faithful in ministry, and refuse to be beaten down. In the end, we are still here, and we are not going away, and we know the fruit that comes from what we do. And no amount of argument on the internet can take that away from what God is doing.

bekkilyn · May 21, 2019

Paidiske said:
It is so tedious and disheartening to have to deal with the same arguments over and over and over again; just to try to allow a little breathing room in which women might not have their basic human dignity crushed from them.

I read these threads and I get to a point where I think; there is nothing to be said that can possibly be helpful, except that I know there are others reading along who don't post, but who are encouraged by the fact that some of us are willing to stand up to such an oppressive reading of Scripture.

But when Scripture itself is dismissed or explained away, I feel like in the end the best thing I can possibly do is live my actual life with integrity, be faithful in ministry, and refuse to be beaten down. In the end, we are still here, and we are not going away, and we know the fruit that comes from what we do. And no amount of argument on the internet can take that away from what God is doing.

Amen.

However, after seeing how some (and not just on this thread) view God as being an angry, wrathful, terrifying, beastly entity, I can well understand how they could easily picture such a god as coming up with such an abusive social structure with one half of the human population created by design as a slave race. It's not even remotely logical to any definitions of "good" that I've ever seen, and yet many seem convinced that it is how good fathers are supposed to treat their children...to terrify and punish them into obedience to whatever wacky schemes come to mind, and as long as there is a bible verse somewhere that *seems* to support it (regardless of how shallow and out-of-context and contradictory the interpretation) they have justified it all in their minds somehow that that's the intended order of creation. It's crazy...why would anyone even want to worship a god that seems to desire to hate, torture, terrify, and abuse them?

In my view, that is *not* good news (gospel) and not of Christ and not of the Spirit. Not even remotely.

And the "slaves" aren't buying it.

LoveofTruth · May 21, 2019

To all:

It is so tedious to have to deal with the same arguments against the clear scriptures over and over again.

All that God has said to women is for the good of the church and the family. The things I have shared here are true and helpful to the church and in no way hurtful to Chrustian women at all.

In fact I know of many assemblies and men who do not teach of the freedoms for women as I have and who do not understand that women can function in a church gathering in prophecy, revelation, prayer in the spirit, spiritual songs and hymns, testimony teaching younger women and children etc.

Bit these truths that I share have been seen by many believers for centuries. It seems that our modern world has accepted ideas and teachings that fight against God's Order and command.

The troubling thing is, when a clear scripture is given those who are corrected by it will go to great lengths to change the plain meaning of the text. This is done in a few ways.

1. The text is claimed to be a cultural matter and so not for today. But this can be easily corrected to the unbiased reader. Paul spoke the commandments of the Lord in Christ, the commandments he gave to the church were “by the Lord Jesus”.

2. The text is changed in meaning by trying to find a remote Greek meaning for certain words that may make it give a different out of context impression. This often confuses others who are not aware of the error here. This can be exposed by the Greek word the context and the usage to the unbiased reader. But this doting about strifes of words is unending and a great problem in many Groups.

3. If the text can’t be disregarded or changed entirely in meaning the next attempt is to attack the messenger, or the person who is teaching God’s order for the church as seeking to set things in order. No amount of attack is enough to try and discredit or put down the person who reminds the believers of God's order.

4. Another attempt to change the meaning of the text is to try and sift through and remote history that might be created to give a different impression of what was written. This is similar to the cultural argument but different.

5. Another attempt to disregard the text is to simply ignore it and use the argument that says , “look what I have been doing” , as if that matters more than God’s commands for the church. An example of this would be, if a one man or women was exalted over an entire assembly and no one was free to minister as God commands them to be able to do as he leads, the person who is over all may simply say, “look at what God has done through my ministry and I don’t care what scriptures you bring I know God is with me.” This is not right in the simple fact that Jesus taught his disciples to observe all things whatsoever he commanded to them. We have such commandments all over the New Testament.

.

LoveofTruth · May 22, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Amen.

However, after seeing how some (and not just on this thread) view God as being an angry, wrathful, terrifying, beastly entity, I can well understand how they could easily picture such a god as coming up with such an abusive social structure with one half of the human population created by design as a slave race. It's not even remotely logical to any definitions of "good" that I've ever seen, and yet many seem convinced that it is how good fathers are supposed to treat their children...to terrify and punish them into obedience to whatever wacky schemes come to mind, and as long as there is a bible verse somewhere that *seems* to support it (regardless of how shallow and out-of-context and contradictory the interpretation) they have justified it all in their minds somehow that that's the intended order of creation. It's crazy...why would anyone even want to worship a god that seems to desire to hate, torture, terrify, and abuse them?

In my view, that is *not* good news (gospel) and not of Christ and not of the Spirit. Not even remotely.

And the "slaves" aren't buying it.

2 Corinthians 5:11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”

Hebrews 12:9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.”

bekkilyn · May 22, 2019

“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”

-- William Shakespeare --

LoveofTruth · May 22, 2019

bekkilyn said:
“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”

-- William Shakespeare --

And quoting the secular world in this context has no power

1 Timothy 6:3. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;4. He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,”

LoveofTruth · May 22, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Amen.

However, after seeing how some (and not just on this thread) view God as being an angry, wrathful, terrifying, beastly entity,

While God is a loving, gracious, merciful and good God, those who know His character also are aware that God can get angry, and read of His wrath, and terror. As I will show below. But “beastly entity” is not a description of God as I am aware.

Psalm 7:11. God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.”

Revelation 19:15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

2 Corinthians 5:11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; ...”

Sam91 · May 22, 2019

Paidiske said:
It is so tedious and disheartening to have to deal with the same arguments over and over and over again; just to try to allow a little breathing room in which women might not have their basic human dignity crushed from them.

I read these threads and I get to a point where I think; there is nothing to be said that can possibly be helpful, except that I know there are others reading along who don't post, but who are encouraged by the fact that some of us are willing to stand up to such an oppressive reading of Scripture.

But when Scripture itself is dismissed or explained away, I feel like in the end the best thing I can possibly do is live my actual life with integrity, be faithful in ministry, and refuse to be beaten down. In the end, we are still here, and we are not going away, and we know the fruit that comes from what we do. And no amount of argument on the internet can take that away from what God is doing.

Padiske, also reading these threads has evolved my mindset from women preachers being unbiblical to a better one. I do not know where I stand but I've grown to understand that the Lord calls whom He wills, that His Will will be done and that He will equip who He calls.

I've learned by seeing a lack of the fruit of the Spirit in many posters in threads such as these to understand that an over legalistic attitude leads to sin and a reliance on own 'wisdom' rather than what the Father teaches. So, thank you for your patience, be encouraged.

bekkilyn · May 22, 2019

Sam91 said:
Padiske, also reading these threads has evolved my mindset from women preachers being unbiblical to a better one. I do not know where I stand but I've grown to understand that the Lord calls whom He wills, that His Will will be done and that He will equip who He calls.

I've learned by seeing a lack of the fruit of the Spirit in many posters in threads such as these to understand that an over legalistic attitude leads to sin and a reliance on own 'wisdom' rather than what the Father teaches. So, thank you for your patience, be encouraged.

I don't recall where this quote comes from, but I've found it very much to be true over the years. It goes something like, "God doesn't call the qualified, but qualifies the called."

LoveofTruth · May 24, 2019

Women can speak in meetings. But the kind of speaking is the issue.

To clarify what I mean read my original post.

bbbbbbb · May 25, 2019

bekkilyn said:
I don't recall where this quote comes from, but I've found it very much to be true over the years. It goes something like, "God doesn't call the qualified, but qualifies the called."

The problem is that most of us, if we are really honest with ourselves, are very much like Moses, who said, "Here am I, Lord. Send Aaron."

Paidiske · May 25, 2019

bbbbbbb said:
The problem is that most of us, if we are really honest with ourselves, are very much like Moses, who said, "Here am I, Lord. Send Aaron."

I remember when I was going through the process of offering for ordination, and someone said to me that I was very brave for doing so. "Not at all!" Says I. "I have thought long and hard about how big the fish in the other direction would be!"

bbbbbbb · May 25, 2019

Paidiske said:
I remember when I was going through the process of offering for ordination, and someone said to me that I was very brave for doing so. "Not at all!" Says I. "I have thought long and hard about how big the fish in the other direction would be!"

I sincerely admire your courage and fortitude. I find myself perplexed regarding the conundrum of otherwise apparently faithful Christian men who are called by God, but then turn their backs on that calling, leaving the door wide open for faithful women such as yourself.

Paidiske · May 25, 2019

Let's face it; ministry is hard. The level of demand is high, in a variety of different ways, and the support and the reward can be low. The rates of burnout and drop out, of broken marriages and damaged families, are high.

I'm not surprised that many people ignore or avoid a vocation. If anything, I'd suggest that churches need to take a good long hard look at what they really expect and ask of their clergy, and realise that (as one former boss of mine put it) "Jesus and His mother are not available" for the job. It has to be sustainable for real people with all their needs and frailties, and many good people take a good long hard look and decide that it isn't.

Gregory Thompson · May 26, 2019

So is it whole wheat or rye? wait .. that would be rolls, not roles. :sorry:

I find it helpful reversing the role here. For example: the thread title Women's roles in the church -> would you ever see a thread Men's roles in the church? This might point to the idea being divorced from the number 1 and 2 commandment, also known as the golden rule.

Womens roles in the church

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