Why Abortion Should Be Allowed in the Early Stages

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Shimokita

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There is no other situation on Earth but abortion where people argue that humans should be forced to relinquish their bodily autonomy
I don’t think so. Things such as prison, or ankle monitors that parolees are forced to wear, are restrictions on body autonomy.

So is the case of conjoined twins. One twin may not kill the other, merely because the other twin’s presence causes his bodily freedom to be restricted.

The question is whether unborn children are human beings that are entitled to the same rights as other members of the human community. You have not proven that they are not (despite your specious attempts at using the Bible and the ECF to do so). You have merely established that we do not know, and potentially killing a human being is not justified by inconvenience.
 
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Enahs4Him

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"The shedding of blood" is not a term to be taken in a literal sense. Otherwise, donating blood to the Red Cross, according to your logic, would be a sin equivalent to murder. "The sheading of blood" means to murder or take innocent life that is not yours to take and does not require a cardiovascular system to make that possible.
I totally agree!
The original "cardiovascular system" post was really "out there". The poster was going out of his/her way to justify abortion. If one had to go that far and state a technicality, it's obvious he/she knows abortion is wrong but has to justify it possibly to fit his/her political beliefs. I think a Christian's politics plays a major part in how far he will go to explain or justify abortion. I am surprised that point wasn't raised more.
 
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Swan7

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Genesis 2:7, which has already been quoted, clearly shows that a person is not ensouled at his very earliest stage, but that the soul is created later by God and put in the person.

"Biologically" we know no such thing—only that the organism formed at conception is a potential life, not an actual one. Just like how frozen embryos are potential people, provided a couple pays for them via IVF and has the woman go through nine months of pregnancy.

That cannot be your only basis for your view as it is already proven to be disproved by God's Word. In other words you are not taking what God has said in the Bible as a whole. There are more scriptures in His library about this very thing.

Read: I don't have any valid counterpoints to his arguments so I'll just issue an ad hominem attack.

They are not attacking you at all, they are seeing it as it is in your posts. Nothing more. Your view of upholding the laws of this world are simply not of God. I'd sincerely hope you reconsider your position in the light of God. Ask Him what His truth is and He will answer you. He did for me and still does to this day. Seek His guidance and not of this world's, as His wisdom is outside of it. :yellowheart:
 
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Shimokita

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Your slanderous accusations aside, if you actually bothered to read the OP, I never claimed that God would bless an abortion, I said it was a sin, but that abortion in the early trimesters is not tantamount to murder. Furthermore, I don't "hate" the unborn, which is an ad hominem the radical right uses against anyone who disagrees with their absolute anti-abortion position.
But its perfectly fine to insinuate that people who disagree with you are misogynists who want to control women’s bodies.

The pot calling the kettle black.

And if you agree that it is sin, authority may prohibit it.

There is simply no biblical principle that indicates that the general right to bodily autonomy prohibits authority from placing restrictions on that autonomy, in order to prevent errant behavior.
 
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GodLovesCats

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I totally agree!
The original "cardiovascular system" post was really "out there". The poster was going out of his/her way to justify abortion. If one had to go that far and state a technicality, it's obvious he/she knows abortion is wrong but has to justify it possibly to fit his/her political beliefs. I think a Christian's politics plays a major part in how far he will go to explain or justify abortion. I am surprised that point wasn't raised more.

I was just taking it literally. You can't shed blood if you have no heart and blood vessels, right? Of course, embryos don't have those things yet for several weeks, so their own bodies can't shed blood.

What is it then that makes an early abortion shedding innocent blood, if there is no blood to be shed?

BTW I am a woman.
 
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Shimokita

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I totally agree!
The original "cardiovascular system" post was really "out there". The poster was going out of his/her way to justify abortion. If one had to go that far and state a technicality, it's obvious he/she knows abortion is wrong but has to justify it possibly to fit his/her political beliefs. I think a Christian's politics plays a major part in how far he will go to explain or justify abortion. I am surprised that point wasn't raised more.
Yes, it is fairly obvious when someone’s politics is more important than his faith.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Genesis 2:7, which has already been quoted, clearly shows that a person is not ensouled at his very earliest stage, but that the soul is created later by God and put in the person.
This verse speaks of the creation of Adam. Not the ensoulment of the offspring of Adam. You have stretched too far in claiming this. That is eisegesis rather than exigesis.
"Biologically" we know no such thing—only that the organism formed at conception is a potential life, not an actual one.
No. Biologically 'the organism' is alive, a real life, and not just alive but a human being. It has that phylum and class and order and family and genus and species.
Just like how frozen embryos are potential people, provided a couple pays for them via IVF and has the woman go through nine months of pregnancy.
No. Those are real human beings, real people stuck in liquid nitrogen until the bills are not paid.
 
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chevyontheriver

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David, that assumes the baby is viable at the time preeclaimpsia occurs.
Since the HELLP syndrome shows up in the third trimester the baby is pretty much assured of being viable. The solution is not abortion but delivery followed by premie card if needed. Abortion does not solve much of anything medically.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Yes, it is fairly obvious when someone’s politics is more important than his faith.

My faith is more important to me than politics. I do not believe politcs should be completely ignored when we talk about abortion because its legality depends on man's law. The Bible has verses that send a "don't kill unborn babies" message when you string them together, no doubt, but I have not read nearly enough of it.
 
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Shimokita

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My faith is more important to me than politics. I do not believe politcs should be completely ignored when we talk about abortion because its legality depends on man's law. The Bible has verses that send a "don't kill unborn babies" message when you string them together, no doubt, but I have not read nearly enough of it.
That’s cool.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I was just taking it literally. You can't shed blood if you have no heart and blood vessels, right? Of course, embryos don't have those things yet for several weeks, so their own bodies can't shed blood.

What is it then that makes an early abortion shedding innocent blood, if there is no blood to be shed?
It's metaphorical language. If I kill you without a drop of blood being shed I am still not innocent.
 
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topher694

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Read: I don't have any valid counterpoints to his arguments so I'll just issue an ad hominem attack.
Nonsense is still nonsense no matter what you choose to call it. And that is a reflection of the argument not the person as your ad hominem accusation would suggest.

I did make an argument, you responded by contradicting yourself in more ways than I cared, or care, to address.

And, as I stated already, Jesus came to bring abundant life. No matter how you spin it, what you are peddling does not line up with that.
 
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basilbear76

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

Do you mean to say that the Virgin Mary could have had the Divine Infant aborted?

That's what your words mean.

The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that ensoulment happens at conception, and that it is the very presence of the soul encourages the physical body to develop during gestation.

After all, is not death the separation of the soul from the body?

Furthermore, the division of pregnancy into three trimesters was never used by obstetricians or anyone at all until Roe vs. Wade.

And with all respect to ST. Augustine or the others, they were NOT obstetricians.

BTW, calling women "incubators" is the rhetoric the anti- life side uses.
 
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Albion

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Until the fetus can survive on its own, it is nothing more than an organ of the woman.

Even a physician who approves of abortion for some reason would disagree strenuously with that explanation! However, it does tell us why you think it is not murder.

Would you really say that a 3 week old embryo is its own body?
Yes. It certainly is not an organ of hers.

Anyway, it's still a sin because God makes us in the womb and we should not flaunt our noses at Him.
?? He makes us in the womb and that's special...but on the other hand, it is okay to kill it because it is not any more special than your tonsils or wisdom teeth.. :doh:

Oh, my friend….

And we haven't yet gotten to what the Bible says about the fetus!
 
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ChicanaRose

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Genesis 2:7, which has already been quoted, clearly shows that a person is not ensouled at his very earliest stage, but that the soul is created later by God and put in the person.

"Biologically" we know no such thing—only that the organism formed at conception is a potential life, not an actual one. Just like how frozen embryos are potential people, provided a couple pays for them via IVF and has the woman go through nine months of pregnancy.

What if years from now, you find out that you were misinformed, and that you also misinformed others into a decision that they regret? I have linked below post-abortion testimonies so you can think once more about the risk you are taking with your perspective:

Rachel's Vineyard - How Abortion Affected Me
 
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aiki

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

A human foetus is a human being in its earliest stages. It's not going to become a kangaroo, or an octopus, or an ostrich, only a fully-formed human being. Calling this nascent human being a foetus dehumanizes it - like the Nazis used to do to the people they killed by the millions. They called those they murdered "rats" and "vermin" and "apes," making them less than human and thus easier to destroy. Don't be like a Nazi.

Traveling six inches down a woman's birth canal to the open air doesn't allow a baby to survive on its own. You leave a newborn baby to fend for itself and it will shortly expire. It needs care for years after its born in order to be able - eventually - to survive on its own. If survivability, then, is the criteria upon which you want to determine whether or not a baby should be murdered, a mother should be able to kill her child at any point at which it is dependent upon her for its survival. A mother, then, could conceivably kill her three-year-old child. Do you really think, though, that a mother should be able to do so? I sure hope not. What if a mother's thirteen-year-old daughter is in a terrible accident and becomes unable to survive except by the constant ministrations of her mother? If survivability is the basis for the right to life, the mother ought to have the freedom to kill her thirteen-year-old, too. Surely, now you can see that survivability is not a legitimate basis for deciding if an unborn baby deserves to live. If an unborn human can be killed because it can't survive on its own, what about the very sick, or very elderly, or very disabled human? Are they on the chopping block, too, because they can't survive on their own? That's what your thinking would allow, it seems to me.

If the mother has total rights over her own body, what about the baby within her? Doesn't it, too, have total rights to its own body? If the mother wants carte blanche to do with her body as she wishes, that same right ought also to belong to the human being in her womb. How, then, do you decide whether or not to kill the baby? On the basis of size? That won't work. We aren't free to kill dwarfish people, or five-year-olds just because they are smaller than the average human adult. Is it location, then, that decides the baby's fate? Can it be murdered because of its location in its mother's womb? How does that make sense? Can we kill astronauts because of their location in orbit? Can we kill miners because of their location deep in the earth? Of course not. On what basis, then, does the mother have the right to murder her baby?

And what about this idea of a woman having a right to total body autonomy? Does her right to do with her body as she pleases extend to destroying another human life? I don't see how. The vast majority of abortions are ones of convenience. Women choose to have sex, which typically involves the possibility of pregnancy, and then demand that their choice should not entail the natural consequence of pregnancy when it occurs. This is irrational. Some argument for abortion might be made in the instance of rape (though, not a good one, I think), but when a woman freely engages in sexual relations and becomes pregnant, she ought not to deplore it, and she certainly ought not to remedy the inconvenience of this perfectly natural consequence of sex through murder! A woman's body autonomy does not give her the right to murder the child she knowingly ran the risk of conceiving when she had sex any more than her body autonomy would give her the right to, say, shoot and kill the bank guard who she knew would likely try to stop her if she freely chose to rob the bank he was guarding.
 
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And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

you make an assertion about when a child is ensouled and then go to an argument from authority fallacy.

can you give us any biblical exegesis from the authorities you cited where God ensouls a child some time after conception? your citation of genesis 2:7 doesn't tell us anything as the first man adam was conceived differently from the rest of us.

BTW, 'fetus', you keep using that word. it doesn't mean what you think it means.
 
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