Bible and science?

nolidad

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For Barbarian: I am calling a lie! The Roman church did not hold to an allegorical eve until modern times IOW post Vatican 2! There may have been folk like De chardin who taught otherwise, but the official position of the Catholic church was YEC, a literal Adam and Eve and Flood as written in Genesis as is!

I looked through the Catholic family bible that was handed down to me and an old Catholic Baltimore Catechism ( I was raised in the Papist church). Both declared Adam and Eve as literal and Noah as literal for a worldwide flood! They both have the Nihil Obstat and Imprematur which made them official church approved !
 
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The Barbarian

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(nolidad thinks that if Jesus says a parable, that turns it into a literal history)


The simple fact is that a regional flood is only a theory less than 2 centuries old!

In fact, it was never Christian orthodoxy that the flood was a literal history. We still don't know for sure.
 
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The Barbarian

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For Barbarian: I am calling a lie!

For someone with your history, you should be very quiet when that word comes up.

The Roman church did not hold to an allegorical eve until modern times IOW post Vatican 2!

Eve isn't allegorical, and the Church doesn't say she is. You seem to think it's impossible to have real people in an allegory. You don't seem to think very clearly, and I'm pretty sure this is just another goof on your part. But you give a strong impression of deviousness.

I looked through the Catholic family bible that was handed down to me and an old Catholic Baltimore Catechism ( I was raised in the Papist church). Both declared Adam and Eve as literal and Noah as literal for a worldwide flood! They both have the Nihil Obstat and Imprematur which made them official church approved !

That's another case that looks like deviousness. The Baltimore Catechism did not say the flood was a literal worldwide flood. No "Catholic Bible" says so, either. Shame on you.
 
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nolidad

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(nolidad thinks that if Jesus says a parable, that turns it into a literal history)




In fact, it was never Christian orthodoxy that the flood was a literal history. We still don't know for sure.

YOu are just lying!

Peter preached a literal flood and Jesus did ot speak a paraqble when He said as it was in the days of Noah. You can pretend all you want- but jesus was not speaking a parable to people who believed Noah!

And according to my roman Catholic Bible with the Nihil Obstat and Impramatur and the Catholic Catechism for adults written prior to Vatican 2 Even the papist church taught a literal Noah! You are just being intentionally deceptive!
 
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nolidad

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For Barbarian:

Better late than never! I call falsehood to your claim that feathers and scutes are genetically, anatomically and biologically identical. They are not according to 9 evolutionary science sites on google!

They have many similarites and some coding that is identical but they are different!

And turning scutes to feathers in alligators? Did not happen! They got something that they called feather like but it was not a feather!

And it was not by random undirected mutations- but carefully controlled intelligent design!
 
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nolidad

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For someone with your history, you should be very quiet when that word comes up.



Eve isn't allegorical, and the Church doesn't say she is. You seem to think it's impossible to have real people in an allegory. You don't seem to think very clearly, and I'm pretty sure this is just another goof on your part. But you give a strong impression of deviousness.



That's another case that looks like deviousness. The Baltimore Catechism did not say the flood was a literal worldwide flood. No "Catholic Bible" says so, either. Shame on you.


Well I have on e in my house and a Catholic Bible with Catechism that say they do! Shame on you!

Called some of my old classmates as well- they remember the sisters teaching us a literal flood that destroyed the world! Catholic HIgh School was vastly different that was post Vatican 2 and everything in science and theology was evolution and Adam and Eve were allegory! So wasn't 6 day creation and the flood! YOu helped bring back loads of memories and how I walked away from God because the Catholic church had doen an about face at Vatican 2. Itrusted the priests and nuns and they failed.
 
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The Barbarian

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Well I have on e in my house and a Catholic Bible with Catechism that say they do! Shame on you!

If anyone wants to check, here's an online copy of the Baltimore Catechism.
The Baltimore Catechism

Did you really think we wouldn't call you on that?

Called some of my old classmates as well- they remember the sisters teaching us a literal flood that destroyed the world!

So unsupported claims, against the Church's own documents. Not really much of a choice, is it?

If you lost your faith, that was your own issue, not Vatican 2.
 
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The Barbarian

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For Barbarian:

Better late than never! I call falsehood to your claim that feathers and scutes are genetically, anatomically and biologically identical.

You merely lied about that. I wrote:

"Nope. As you learned, the experiments showed that feathers and scutes are genetically and biochemically equivalent."

Which they are. Did you think no one noticed that you dishonestly altered what I said?

And turning scutes to feathers in alligators? Did not happen! They got something that they called feather like but it was not a feather!

Well, let's take a look...

Multiple Regulatory Modules Are Required for Scale-to-Feather Conversion
Molecular Biology and Evolution
Volume 35, Issue 2
February 2018
Ping Wu Jie Yan Yung-Chih Lai Chen Siang Ng Ang Li Xueyuan Jiang Ruth M Elsey Randall Widelitz Ruchi Bajpai

Abstract

The origin of feathers is an important question in Evo-Devo studies, with the eventual evolution of vaned feathers which are aerodynamic, allowing feathered dinosaurs and early birds to fly and venture into new ecological niches. Studying how feathers and scales are developmentally specified provides insight into how a new organ may evolve. We identified feather-associated genes using genomic analyses. The candidate genes were tested by expressing them in chicken and alligator scale forming regions. Ectopic expression of these genes induced intermediate morphotypes between scales and feathers which revealed several major morphogenetic events along this path: Localized growth zone formation, follicle invagination, epithelial branching, feather keratin differentiation, and dermal papilla formation. In addition to molecules known to induce feathers on scales (retinoic acid, β-catenin), we identified novel scale-feather converters (Sox2, Zic1, Grem1, Spry2, Sox18) which induce one or more regulatory modules guiding these morphogenetic events. Some morphotypes resemble filamentous appendages found in feathered dinosaur fossils, whereas others exhibit characteristics of modern avian feathers. We propose these morpho-regulatory modules were used to diversify archosaur scales and to initiate feather evolution. The regulatory combination and hierarchical integration may have led to the formation of extant feather forms. Our study highlights the importance of integrating discoveries between developmental biology and paleontology.


Not what they told you, is it?

And it was not by random undirected mutations- but carefully controlled intelligent design!

Sorry, that excuse won't work. They merely tested the genes to see if they'd produce feathers in alligators as evolutionary theory predicts. Not only did they get feathers, they got primitive down filaments such as are found in early dinosaurs.

Once again, verifying the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs.
 
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The Barbarian

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YOu are just lying!

Well, let's take a look...

Peter preached a literal flood

So you say that he said it was a literal history, not a parable? (Barbarian checks) Nope. That's not what he said. You just inserted "literal" to make it fit your new ideas.

And according to my roman Catholic Bible with the Nihil Obstat and Impramatur and the Catholic Catechism for adults written prior to Vatican 2 Even the papist church taught a literal Noah!

And now, your story changes.

Barbarian said:
That's another case that looks like deviousness. The Baltimore Catechism did not say the flood was a literal worldwide flood. No "Catholic Bible" says so, either. Shame on you.

You replied:
Well I have on e in my house and a Catholic Bible with Catechism that say they do! Shame on you!

And now that I've shown you that it wasn't true, you've switching stories to "yeah, but Noah was a real person." Do you think no one notices?

You are just being intentionally deceptive!

It appears that one of us is...
 
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nolidad

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If anyone wants to check, here's an online copy of the Baltimore Catechism.
The Baltimore Catechism

Did you really think we wouldn't call you on that?



So unsupported claims, against the Church's own documents. Not really much of a choice, is it?

If you lost your faith, that was your own issue, not Vatican 2.

This must be the adult version. I have a young childs version. I am not sure but I think it is fourth or thrid grade!

Whos is we? Are you multiple personalities????

NO I was responsible for walking away- the Papist church just tied the millstone to my neck!
 
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nolidad

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You merely lied about that. I wrote:

"Nope. As you learned, the experiments showed that feathers and scutes are genetically and biochemically equivalent."

Which they are. Did you think no one noticed that you dishonestly altered what I said?



Well, let's take a look...

Multiple Regulatory Modules Are Required for Scale-to-Feather Conversion
Molecular Biology and Evolution
Volume 35, Issue 2
February 2018
Ping Wu Jie Yan Yung-Chih Lai Chen Siang Ng Ang Li Xueyuan Jiang Ruth M Elsey Randall Widelitz Ruchi Bajpai

Abstract

The origin of feathers is an important question in Evo-Devo studies, with the eventual evolution of vaned feathers which are aerodynamic, allowing feathered dinosaurs and early birds to fly and venture into new ecological niches. Studying how feathers and scales are developmentally specified provides insight into how a new organ may evolve. We identified feather-associated genes using genomic analyses. The candidate genes were tested by expressing them in chicken and alligator scale forming regions. Ectopic expression of these genes induced intermediate morphotypes between scales and feathers which revealed several major morphogenetic events along this path: Localized growth zone formation, follicle invagination, epithelial branching, feather keratin differentiation, and dermal papilla formation. In addition to molecules known to induce feathers on scales (retinoic acid, β-catenin), we identified novel scale-feather converters (Sox2, Zic1, Grem1, Spry2, Sox18) which induce one or more regulatory modules guiding these morphogenetic events. Some morphotypes resemble filamentous appendages found in feathered dinosaur fossils, whereas others exhibit characteristics of modern avian feathers. We propose these morpho-regulatory modules were used to diversify archosaur scales and to initiate feather evolution. The regulatory combination and hierarchical integration may have led to the formation of extant feather forms. Our study highlights the importance of integrating discoveries between developmental biology and paleontology.


Not what they told you, is it?



Sorry, that excuse won't work. They merely tested the genes to see if they'd produce feathers in alligators as evolutionary theory predicts. Not only did they get feathers, they got primitive down filaments such as are found in early dinosaurs.

Once again, verifying the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Sorry, that excuse won't work. They merely tested the genes to see if they'd produce feathers in alligators as evolutionary theory predicts. Not only did they get feathers, they got primitive down filaments such as are found in early dinosaurs.

Once again, verifying the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Wrong again !

Using modern genomics to turn alligator scales into birdlike feathers
by Oxford University Press

"For the research study, the team performed a complete RNA transcriptome and DNA genomic analysis of developing chicks and alligators to identify their gene expression differences and the key genes in scale or feather formation.

Next, they placed these unique chicken feather genes within alligator eggs, carefully turning them on or off underneath their growing skin to reawaken an ancient programming that can turn scales into feathers."

they took chicken genes and put them in alligator eggs! Then played with the alligator embryo and certain times! Once again showing it took intelligent design to make something that looked like a feather.

I looked and could not find one verification that this alligator flayed scute had a follicle, quill, after feathers, rachis, vane barbs, barbules or hooklets.
 
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nolidad

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Well, let's take a look...



So you say that he said it was a literal history, not a parable? (Barbarian checks) Nope. That's not what he said. You just inserted "literal" to make it fit your new ideas.



And now, your story changes.

Barbarian said:
That's another case that looks like deviousness. The Baltimore Catechism did not say the flood was a literal worldwide flood. No "Catholic Bible" says so, either. Shame on you.

You replied:


And now that I've shown you that it wasn't true, you've switching stories to "yeah, but Noah was a real person." Do you think no one notices?



It appears that one of us is...

Barbarian said:
That's another case that looks like deviousness. The Baltimore Catechism did not say the flood was a literal worldwide flood. No "Catholic Bible" says so, either. Shame on you.

Well my little Balt. Catechism does and my Catholic action bible with the Nihil Obstat and Impramatur do in their catechism or comment section!
 
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The Barbarian

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i
Barbarian said:
That's another case that looks like deviousness. The Baltimore Catechism did not say the flood was a literal worldwide flood. No "Catholic Bible" says so, either. Shame on you.

Well my little Balt. Catechism does and my Catholic action bible with the Nihil Obstat and Impramatur do in their catechism or comment section!

Here's the Baltimore Catechism online, for anyone to see who's telling the truth:
The Baltimore Catechism
 
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nolidad

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Barbarian observes:
You still think that if you're alive, your uncle must be dead. As you learned, Archaeoptyrix is a dinosaur very close to the actual ancestor of birds. But it's not a bird. It's a dinosaur."



It means you think that if a more evolved form exists, all the less-evolved forms must be extinct. It's like the old excuse we get from creationsts:
"If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"

It's hard to believe they can't figure that out.



I've known a lot of college professors. None of them thought so, but one. A nice old guy, an immunologist, who happened to be a creationist.



You've a bit confused. You're thinking of velociraptors, and that's not the line that produced birds.



Nope. You still don't get it. The earliest flying dinosaur precedes Archaeopteryx, which is a highly evolved flying dinosaur in it's own way. But not a direct ancestor to birds. You don't have to worry about "saving face." Just do better research, and think a little before you post.



...and dinosaurs.








Wnt signaling and Bmp signaling play pivotal roles in the fate of lung and esophageal organogenesis.

The lung and esophageal basal cells share common properties.


Lung and esophageal basal cells participate in regeneration after injury. This has been also observed in differentiated lung cells.
...
Lung and esophageal development and organogenesis involve a complex interplay of signaling pathways and transcriptional factors. Once the lung and esophagus do separate, their epithelial proliferation and differentiation programs share certain common properties that may fuel adaptive responses to injury and subsequent regeneration.

https://www.cell.com/trends/cell-biology/fulltext/S0962-8924(18)30071-0



In primitive chordates, like tunicates and cephalochordates, respiration is a function of the digestive system.

Vertebrates retain traces of a feeding apparatus like that of tunicates and cephalochordates. The gill slits, however, ceased to function as feeding structures, and then later as respiratory devices, as the vertebrate structure underwent evolutionary changes.
chordate | Definition, Characteristics, & Facts

In vertebrates the gullet continued to exchange gases. In some early fish, the gullet became folded to increase the surface area. And later formed pockets which became lungs.

We still have fish with that primitive arrangement of pouches...

Evolution of lung breathing from a lungless primitive vertebrate
Respir Physiol Neurobiol. 2016 Apr; 224: 11–16.

M. Hoffman, B. E. Taylor, and M. B. Harris

Lamprey are cartilaginous and jawless fish reminiscent of the basal vertebrate lineage. The larval (ammocoete) stage is considered among the most “primitive” living vertebrates, resembling non-vertebrate chordates. Ammocoetes are microphagous suspension feeders that form burrows in soft sediment. Water flow is generated by continuous rhythmic ventilation of the pharyngeal pouch, which acquires nutrients but also satisfies metabolic gas exchange requirements. O2 diffuses from water across the surface areas of exchange epithelia including the pharynx and gills (Hsia et al., 2013; Mallatt, 1981; Rovainen, 1996), and metabolically produced CO2 easily diffuses across all body surfaces and dissipates into surrounding water.




I should be charging you for this education you're getting, you know.

Barbarian observes:
Some fish still use them for respiration. Goldfish can gulp air, and use that bladder to absorb the oxygen, and remove carbon dioxide.



Nope. You've been misled one more time...

Eventually, the fish will begin gasping at the surface of the water. This surface breathing should not be confused with fish feeding at the surface or fish that can normally take some air at the surface, such as labyrinth fish. Certain species of fish, such as bettas and gouramis, will periodically take a leisurely gulp of air from the surface. That is perfectly normal behavior, and the fish will not remain on the surface taking breath after breath. When fish go to the surface of the water for oxygen, they will gasp repeatedly, often with a wide open mouth.
Low Oxygen in Aquarium Water

If the oxygen level in the water drops too far, goldfish will gulp air to make up the difference. But they aren't adapted to doing this, and they will be stressed and vulnerable to disease of you let that go on.


But fish don't have to gulp air to keep bladders inflated. They can exchange gases in water just as well.

Barbarian observes:
You still think that if you're alive, your uncle must be dead. As you learned, Archaeoptyrix is a dinosaur very close to the actual ancestor of birds. But it's not a bird. It's a dinosaur."



It means you think that if a more evolved form exists, all the less-evolved forms must be extinct. It's like the old excuse we get from creationsts:
"If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"

It's hard to believe they can't figure that out.



I've known a lot of college professors. None of them thought so, but one. A nice old guy, an immunologist, who happened to be a creationist.



You've a bit confused. You're thinking of velociraptors, and that's not the line that produced birds.



Nope. You still don't get it. The earliest flying dinosaur precedes Archaeopteryx, which is a highly evolved flying dinosaur in it's own way. But not a direct ancestor to birds. You don't have to worry about "saving face." Just do better research, and think a little before you post.



...and dinosaurs.



... and dinosaurs (both lay hard-shelled amniote eggs)



...and dinosaurs...



Actually, it seems to have been a mesotherm, like other dinosaurs. And it has dinosaur teeth, and no beak. And a dinosaur tail, instead of an avian pygostyle. And dinosaur ribs. And no furcula (wishbone). And unfused digits. And no keeled breastbone... And (long list)

So, having more dinosaur characteristics than avian ones (and those are ones shared by dinosaurs and birds), it's classified as a dinosaur.



I don't know of any scientist who thinks birds evolved from Archaeopteryx.

(your scute misunderstandings are cleared up in a different post)



That's curable. But it will take a little effort. I once knew a body repairman who had gained a pretty good grasp of evolutionary theory. So you could do it, if you wanted to.

Not easy, but certainly doable.



... and dinosaurs (both lay hard-shelled amniote eggs)



...and dinosaurs...



Actually, it seems to have been a mesotherm, like other dinosaurs. And it has dinosaur teeth, and no beak. And a dinosaur tail, instead of an avian pygostyle. And dinosaur ribs. And no furcula (wishbone). And unfused digits. And no keeled breastbone... And (long list)

So, having more dinosaur characteristics than avian ones (and those are ones shared by dinosaurs and birds), it's classified as a dinosaur.



I don't know of any scientist who thinks birds evolved from Archaeopteryx.

(your scute misunderstandings are cleared up in a different post)



That's curable. But it will take a little effort. I once knew a body repairman who had gained a pretty good grasp of evolutionary theory. So you could do it, if you wanted to.

Not easy, but certainly doable.[/QUOTE]
Barbarian observes:
You still think that if you're alive, your uncle must be dead. As you learned, Archaeoptyrix is a dinosaur very close to the actual ancestor of birds. But it's not a bird. It's a dinosaur."



It means you think that if a more evolved form exists, all the less-evolved forms must be extinct. It's like the old excuse we get from creationsts:
"If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"

It's hard to believe they can't figure that out.



I've known a lot of college professors. None of them thought so, but one. A nice old guy, an immunologist, who happened to be a creationist.



You've a bit confused. You're thinking of velociraptors, and that's not the line that produced birds.



Nope. You still don't get it. The earliest flying dinosaur precedes Archaeopteryx, which is a highly evolved flying dinosaur in it's own way. But not a direct ancestor to birds. You don't have to worry about "saving face." Just do better research, and think a little before you post.



...and dinosaurs.



... and dinosaurs (both lay hard-shelled amniote eggs)



...and dinosaurs...



Actually, it seems to have been a mesotherm, like other dinosaurs. And it has dinosaur teeth, and no beak. And a dinosaur tail, instead of an avian pygostyle. And dinosaur ribs. And no furcula (wishbone). And unfused digits. And no keeled breastbone... And (long list)

So, having more dinosaur characteristics than avian ones (and those are ones shared by dinosaurs and birds), it's classified as a dinosaur.



I don't know of any scientist who thinks birds evolved from Archaeopteryx.

(your scute misunderstandings are cleared up in a different post)



That's curable. But it will take a little effort. I once knew a body repairman who had gained a pretty good grasp of evolutionary theory. So you could do it, if you wanted to.

Not easy, but certainly doable.

Barbarian observes:
You still think that if you're alive, your uncle must be dead. As you learned, Archaeoptyrix is a dinosaur very close to the actual ancestor of birds. But it's not a bird. It's a dinosaur."

Berkely disagrees with you!

Archaeopteryx is considered by many to be the first bird, being of about 150 million years of age. ... Lately, scientists have realized that it bears even more resemblance to its ancestors, the Maniraptora, than to modern birds; providing a strong phylogenetic link between the two groups.
Archaeopteryx - UCMP Berkeley

Archaeopteryx

Barbarian says: "It means you think that if a more evolved form exists, all the less-evolved forms must be extinct. It's like the old excuse we get from creationsts:"

No but you offered a drawing showing transitional forms that appear in the geologic column long after archeoptryx , so they cannot be transitional forms.

Here is another article showing transitional ancestors who appear long after birds were already here!
Hard to be a transition if birds were already flourishing!

Nine links in the transition from dinosaurs to birds

The Origin and Diversification of Birds
Author links open overlay panelStephen L.Brusatte1Jingmai K.O’Connor2Erich D.Jarvis34
RedirectingGet rights and content
Under an Elsevier user license
open archive

Birds are one of the most recognizable and diverse groups of modern vertebrates. Over the past two decades, a wealth of new fossil discoveries and phylogenetic and macroevolutionary studies has transformed our understanding of how birds originated and became so successful. Birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs during the Jurassic (around 165–150 million years ago) and their classic small, lightweight, feathered, and winged body plan was pieced together gradually over tens of millions of years of evolution rather than in one burst of innovation. Early birds diversified throughout the Jurassic and Cretaceous, becoming capable fliers with supercharged growth rates, but were decimated at the end-Cretaceous extinction alongside their close dinosaurian relatives. After the mass extinction, modern birds (members of the avian crown group) explosively diversified, culminating in more than 10,000 species distributed worldwide today.


See once again what you say and what I find in science articles are two divergent truths!

YOu write:

"Nope. You still don't get it. The earliest flying dinosaur precedes Archaeopteryx, which is a highly evolved flying dinosaur in it's own way. But not a direct ancestor to birds. You don't have to worry about "saving face." Just do better research, and think a little before you post."

Well Pteranadons and pteradactyls had membranous wings and are not part of the supposed ascent to birds so they are moot! They did not have feathers.
 
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nolidad

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That's what's behind the creationist "Junk DNA" story.



That's what a YECs are: folks with quasi creation beliefs, who also have "scientific" ideas that don't fit the evidence.


Once again YEC scientists do not believe in the theory of "junkDNA" they believe it has degraded because of sin but it is not fossil remnants of our evolutionary past as the theory declares.
 
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nolidad

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For Barbarian:

Yes hair in humans is different in structure. But forensic studies can differentiate between the different hairs of different families!
Real scientists can tell the difference between dog hair, human hair, chimp hair etc.
 
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Kaon

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I have heard people argue that the Bible and science contradicts, e.g. along the lines of claiming that there are many species of a certain type of animal (I am not saying I believe the Bible and science contradicts, I am just saying this is what some people claim) "contrary" to Noah's ark?

What are your thoughts on this?

The bible canon may contradict science (although it doesn't in my opinion), the Word of God categorically is the purest form of knowledge, or "scientia," and He encourages us to be knowledgeable, and wise. When we think of "science," we are really saying "academia" - which is a school of thought based heavily on Greek, Roman and Egyptian traditions. This is the lot of humanity when it come to knowledge - and we have to understand it is flawed at best, and misguided in general.

Having said that, the Word of God Himself - Who some call Christ - is the ultimate form of knowledge and wisdom. He taught me mathematics; He teaches some people how to fight, or cast out spirits.
 
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nolidad

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For Barbarian:

I wrongly attributed the word biologically to you.

In post 547 you said:
"That excuse won't work for you. You see, the fact is, scutes and feathers are do alike genetically, biochemically, and anatomically, that a single mutation can reverse the process.

No. Gas bladders in fish are vestigial lungs (many fish still retain functional lungs, and lack gas bladders, which are merely lungs that no longer do respiration, but maintain bouyancy)."
Close enough to be synonymous with biologically alike (inherited)

And as I showed you from evolutionary web sites a single mutation cannot undo the process.

But then again all this arguing about engineeering still doesn't answer how a featherless creture evolved feathers!

https://askabiologist.asu.edu/sites...es/articles/bird_feathers/feather_anatomy.jpg

plus the follicle that the quill originates from!
 
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The Barbarian

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Once again YEC scientists do not believe in the theory of "junkDNA" they believe it has degraded because of sin but it is not fossil remnants of our evolutionary past as the theory declares.

Which is why they call it "Junk DNA." There is some DNA that has degraded, but as I showed you, even decades ago, scientists showed that non-coding DNA often has evolved new functions. As Darwin predicted about vestigial features over a hundred years ago.

For Barbarian:
Yes hair in humans is different in structure. But forensic studies can differentiate between the different hairs of different families!

DNA traces in hair can show you the individual whose hair it is, while the analysis of such DNA shows that chimpanzees and humans are more closely related to each other, than either is related to anything else. Again, as predicted by evolutionary theory.

Barbarian said:
That's another case that looks like deviousness. The Baltimore Catechism did not say the flood was a literal worldwide flood. No "Catholic Bible" says so, either. Shame on you.

nolidad said:
Well my little Balt. Catechism does and my Catholic action bible with the Nihil Obstat and Impramatur do in their catechism or comment section!

Barbarian shows this to be a falsehood:
Here's the Baltimore Catechism online, for anyone to see who's telling the truth:
The Baltimore Catechism

This must be the adult version.

There is the St. Joseph's Baltimore Catechism for very young schoolchildren, but does not in any way change the message found in the official version.

422448_2_toc_2048x2048.jpg



I have a young childs version. I am not sure but I think it is fourth or thrid grade!

See above. You've messed up again.

NO I was responsible for walking away- the Papist church just tied the millstone to my neck!

No, you just never got the message. Neither God nor His Church caused your problems.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Actually, it seems to have been a mesotherm, like other dinosaurs. And it has dinosaur teeth, and no beak. And a dinosaur tail, instead of an avian pygostyle. And dinosaur ribs. And no furcula (wishbone). And unfused digits. And no keeled breastbone... And (long list)

So, having more dinosaur characteristics than avian ones (and those are ones shared by dinosaurs and birds), it's classified as a dinosaur.

I don't know of any scientist who thinks birds evolved from Archaeopteryx.

(your scute misunderstandings are cleared up in a different post)

Berkely disagrees with you!

Too bad for them, then. As you now realize, Archaepteryx is not the ancestor of birds, and it has more dinosaur features than avian features. And it's been known for nearly a decade that Archaeopteryx isn't a bird:

Analysis of fossil traits suggests that Archaeopteryx is not a bird at all. The latest discovery of a fossil that treads the line between birds and non-avian dinosaurs is leading palaeontologists to reassess the creature that has been considered the evolutionary link between the two.


Archaeopteryx has long been placed at the base of the bird evolutionary tree. It has traits that have helped to define what it is to be a bird, such as long and robust forelimbs. Yet in recent years, the discoveries of numerous small, feathery dinosaurs have created a conundrum for palaeontologists, raising questions about which animals are the ancestors of modern birds and which are just closely related cousins.
Archaeopteryx no longer first bird : Nature News

I notice that UC Berkey doesn't say it's a bird, either:


"Archaeopteryx is considered by many to be the first bird, being of about 150 million years of age. ... Lately, scientists have realized that it bears even more resemblance to its ancestors, the Maniraptora, than to modern birds; providing a strong phylogenetic link between the two groups."
Archaeopteryx - UCMP Berkeley

As you learned, the old idea of Archaeopteryx as a bird has been demonstrated to be wrong for almost a decade.
Barbarian observes:
It means you think that if a more evolved form exists, all the less-evolved forms must be extinct. It's like the old excuse we get from creationsts:"

but you offered a drawing showing transitional forms that appear in the geologic column long after archeoptryx , so they cannot be transitional forms.

Your fellow YEC, Kurt Wise, disagrees with you...

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation - of stratomorphic intermediate species - include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39

Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

And Wise actually knows what he's talking about.

Well Pteranadons and pteradactyls had membranous wings and are not part of the supposed ascent to birds so they are moot! They did not have feathers.

Well, that's kind of a problem for you, too...

Two spectacular fossils found in China show that the flying reptiles known as pterosaurs had primitive feathers to help keep them warm, just like many dinosaurs. The finding suggests that feathers evolved far earlier than we thought.

The wings of pterosaurs were made of skin, muscles and fibre, so they had no need of flight feathers. The feathers they had are small and tufty.

“They are almost certainly just for insulation,” says Mike Benton at the University of Bristol, UK, a member of the team that discovered one of the fossils about two years ago. The second specimen was found several years ago but its importance is only now being appreciated.
Stunning fossils show pterosaurs had primitive feathers like dinosaurs

Remember when I told you that not knowing what you're talking about is a huge disadvantage?
 
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