Do religious discussions here make you want to be Christian?

rjs330 said:

Hedrick Christianity is a relationship with Jesus. It's not about politics, traditional culture, liberal culture, food, denominations or anything else.

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The point is, of course, that you wouldn't know it from the discussions on this forum.

Tinker Grey said:

The point is, of course, that you wouldn't know it from the discussions on this forum.

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Well just because Christianity is about a relationship with Christ it doesn't mean Christians can't have opinions or thoughts about politics or ethical dilemmas or abortion or whatever.

rjs330 said:

Well just because Christianity is about a relationship with Christ it doesn't mean Christians can't have opinions or thoughts about politics or ethical dilemmas or abortion or whatever.

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The point is, that you are still missing, is as per the OP, that discussions on this forum don't make people want to be a Christian. What Christianity "really" is is irrelevant to the point @hedrick was making.

I came to CF with a desire to be christian. I called myself Christian. But spending time here on CF, I cannot abide the intolerance, misogyny, homophobia, and at times outright hatred expressed here. I also cannot abide the total rejection of science in favour of beliefs that are at odds to scientific reasoning.

As you can see I have since stepped away from Christianity, but I still enjoy the philosophical discussions.

A notable aspect of modern Christianity is its diversity. The spectrum of beliefs among self-identified Christians is enormous. From doctrinally strict Pentecostals, to some Quakers and Unitarian Universalists. Who may consider themselves Christians because they admire and try to follow Jesus’s moral teachings. But reject the idea that Jesus was God, or necessary for salvation, or that the Bible is infallible scripture. And who has the authority to deny that they’re Christians? Even as a non-religious person, I appreciate that Christianity can be so broadly inclusive and democratic.

Tinker Grey said:

The point is, that you are still missing, is as per the OP, that discussions on this forum don't make people want to be a Christian. What Christianity "really" is is irrelevant to the point @hedrick was making.

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I didn't miss that point and addressed it in a previous post. I don't think discussion and debate over politics and morality are ways to make people want to become Christians. Christianity is about a relationship with Christ and the Father. It's not about politics or morality. Morality is subjective and politics is well...political beliefs on government. Debate over these things rarely would cause someone to want to be a Christian. You can't debate someone to Christ.

Zoii said:

I came to CF with a desire to be christian. I called myself Christian. But spending time here on CF, I cannot abide the intolerance, misogyny, homophobia, and at times outright hatred expressed here. I also cannot abide the total rejection of science in favour of beliefs that are at odds to scientific reasoning.

As you can see I have since stepped away from Christianity, but I still enjoy the philosophical discussions.

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Then you came to CF with the wrong purpose. If you step away from Christianity because Christians think homosexuality is sinful or evolution from a common ancestor is incorrect then you are not searching for a relationship with Christ. A relationship with Jesus is about recognizing that you are lost without him and need him for salvation. It's recognizing you are a sinner and nothing you do will get you a relationship with the Almighty God. It's only by faith in Christ that makes you right with God. Your not made right with God by believing homosexuality is a so or by believing abortion is wrong or being a conservative or liberal. If we can't look at our own life and say I need Christ then it's hopeless for us.

rjs330 said:

Then you came to CF with the wrong purpose. If you step away from Christianity because Christians think homosexuality is sinful or evolution from a common ancestor is incorrect then you are not searching for a relationship with Christ. A relationship with Jesus is about recognizing that you are lost without him and need him for salvation.

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You make a good point: I agree that being a Christian is about being made right with God.

However: If I look at this question from the point of view of a seeker, someone who is trying to figure out which religious or spiritual path will make a person right with God, and whether Christianity will lead them to God, then these other issues matter. If I am a seeker, and I see that following Christianity makes people crueler, or more self-centered, or that Christianity makes people think that God has created the natural world in order to trick us -- if I'm a seeker who sees those things, maybe it might convince me that following Christ does not, in fact, bring me closer to God, and I should seek elsewhere.

I don't think that the dark side of Christians' behavior is the full picture of Christianity, and I hope to have more conversations with Zoii and other seekers, in which we can explore how the Christian faith can, in fact, lead a person to God. But I don't blame the seekers who look at Christians behaving badly and decide to run the other way.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

For the non-Christians: When you're browsing this site, and you see discussions on salvation or Church history or any theological topic, do these discussions make Christianity seem appealing, or do these arguments turn you away?

I've discussed this topic with Christians on this site, but I want to turn it over to the non-Christians: Are we doing a good job of discussing the Christian faith?

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I have to say no, this forum would not convince me to return to Christianity. When I started on this forum twelve (!) years ago I was just a high schooler who was moderate-conservative but wanted to learn more theology and history of the church. Well long story short my experiences on here and in real life led me away from a world that was looking very toxic and hostile from me. First I tried a more liberal view of Christianity and then I departed it entirely. Saying that was CF's fault would be overgeneralizing but looking at it now it would be a really hard sell if it was all about the community here.

rjs330 said:

Then you came to CF with the wrong purpose

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What exactly is the prescribed purpose? I would have thought people come here for all sorts of reasons. In my case I think on issues of spirituality quite a lot and so examining the christian paradigm was part of that.

I wasn't aware that such an intent was the 'wrong purpose'

rjs330 said:

It's recognizing you are a sinner and nothing you do will get you a relationship with the Almighty God. It's only by faith in Christ that makes you right with God.

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Within the terms of Christianity I accept that. But as I am most uncertain about Christianity, I examined its understanding of what this universe is, and what is God.

I have never been to a church service but I frequented a church when it was empty and sat with a female reverend. Our discussion was about this world - the incredulous nature of our universe and how God may fit into it.

I came here to look at more specifics and it would seem that to be christian, it warrants a package deal I must accept that includes notions around who is good and who is bad : Gays bad (Heck you are not even allowed to express support for gays on this site such is the mood by Christians towards them). You have to reject science, must believe that if a friend has sex with her boyfriend shes bad, accept demons are true, accept that as a woman I must not lead either my family or in any capacity for that matter...and the list goes on. So you saying that only Jesus matters, is not generally accepted as being true amongst Christians - being christian is a whole package deal.

rjs330 said:

If we can't look at our own life and say I need Christ then it's hopeless for us.

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No I feel quite positive about my own life and this world. My only fears are from conservatives who refuse to embrace the change necessary for the continued evolution and survival of our world.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

For the non-Christians: When you're browsing this site, and you see discussions on salvation or Church history or any theological topic, do these discussions make Christianity seem appealing, or do these arguments turn you away?

I've discussed this topic with Christians on this site, but I want to turn it over to the non-Christians: Are we doing a good job of discussing the Christian faith?

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The majority of the discussions make me so grateful I renounced Christianity half a century ago. There are some posts that are exceptions and some specific members for whom I have the utmost respect.

It may be helpful to itemise some of the principal issues that I find unattractive.

• This one can't really be levelled at Christianity, but the profound ignorance of theology and scripture exhibited by some Christian members is frustrating.
• The absence of rational thought on the part of some members.
• The relish with which some members contemplate the consignment of sinners to hell.
• The association of patriotism and right wing thinking (primarily linked to certain US members) with Christianity.
• The lack of any cohesive view of what Christianity is (despite a sincere attempt by forum staff to set out definitions and limits within the rules)
• The resultant squabbling between different branches of the religion

I could go on, but you probably get my drift.

I know that Christianity and Christians are a great deal more worthy than comes across on this forum, and that I find rather sad.

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

For the non-Christians: When you're browsing this site, and you see discussions on salvation or Church history or any theological topic, do these discussions make Christianity seem appealing, or do these arguments turn you away?

I've discussed this topic with Christians on this site, but I want to turn it over to the non-Christians: Are we doing a good job of discussing the Christian faith?

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I find it interesting that people believe so fervently stories which appear to me to be blatant nonsense. I’d love to understand why some believe in god/ Jesus etc but some don’t. My own opinion is that the majority of Christians will have been raised in a Christian environment, or suffered some form of trauma which they hoped Christianity might help heal. I’ve seen nothing on here which would move me towards religion in any way.

rjs330 said:

Then you came to CF with the wrong purpose. If you step away from Christianity because Christians think homosexuality is sinful or evolution from a common ancestor is incorrect then you are not searching for a relationship with Christ. A relationship with Jesus is about recognizing that you are lost without him and need him for salvation. It's recognizing you are a sinner and nothing you do will get you a relationship with the Almighty God. It's only by faith in Christ that makes you right with God. Your not made right with God by believing homosexuality is a so or by believing abortion is wrong or being a conservative or liberal. If we can't look at our own life and say I need Christ then it's hopeless for us.

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If you consider that it also happens - not too rarely - that there are people who proclaim that the have a relationship with Jesus, are lost without him, needed salvation and found it with Jesus... and then get told that they don't do any of that because they support homosexual marriage or are pro-choice or don't hate immigrants... you might come to reconsider this simplistic approach of "It's all about a relationship!"

One of the major problems I have with Christianity is that none of those people who claim to have a relationship with Jesus are able to show that they have a real relationship with a real Jesus.

Zoii said:

I came here to look at more specifics and it would seem that to be christian, it warrants a package deal I must accept that includes notions around who is good and who is bad : Gays bad (Heck you are not even allowed to express support for gays on this site such is the mood by Christians towards them). You have to reject science, must believe that if a friend has sex with her boyfriend shes bad, accept demons are true, accept that as a woman I must not lead either my family or in any capacity for that matter...and the list goes on. So you saying that only Jesus matters, is not generally accepted as being true amongst Christians - being christian is a whole package deal.

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CF is not the whole Christian Church. I would hate to see someone turned away from Christianity because of CF.

In the real world the attitudes you describe are held primarily by conservative Protestants. Liberal Protestants and most Catholics (despite the official teachings of the Catholics Church) don't agree.

Even here a lot of people would agree that being a Christian is about following Jesus.

I don't know why, but most Christians don't participate in this kind of forum. Members of my church interact with each other on Facebook. There's also a very active community there for my national denomination. Patheos.com is another view of Christianity. It includes the range of Christians, including conservative ones, but with a higher level than here. (Oddly enough, the one group without its own subgroup there is moderate Protestants.)

Zoii said:

I came to CF with a desire to be christian. I called myself Christian. But spending time here on CF, I cannot abide the intolerance, misogyny, homophobia, and at times outright hatred expressed here. I also cannot abide the total rejection of science in favour of beliefs that are at odds to scientific reasoning.

As you can see I have since stepped away from Christianity, but I still enjoy the philosophical discussions.

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Wow! I didn't know you changed your position. When did this happen, Zoii?

Freodin said:

If you consider that it also happens - not too rarely - that there are people who proclaim that the have a relationship with Jesus, are lost without him, needed salvation and found it with Jesus... and then get told that they don't do any of that because they support homosexual marriage or are pro-choice or don't hate immigrants... you might come to reconsider this simplistic approach of "It's all about a relationship!"

One of the major problems I have with Christianity is that none of those people who claim to have a relationship with Jesus are able to show that they have a real relationship with a real Jesus.

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One of the major problems I have with today's Christianity is that the term 'relationship' isn't really directly stated in the Bible, yet the concept is given great clout in a number of churches. Such talk really reflects some level of wishful thinking about the nature of interacting with God, and it's not surprising that this kind of articulation is so often found in the U.S.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

For me it's the other way around. The discussions I have here are a consequence of me wanting to live Christianity. That involves gaining a deeper understanding through theological discussion.

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bekkilyn said:

I'm not a non-Christian, but if I was a non-Christian and CF was my primary or only introduction to it, I'd likely run as far away from the religion as possible. Too many posts/threads here give the false impression that following Christ is about holding harsh, narrow, anti-intellectual views.

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Eight Foot Manchild said:

No. Christianity has been unappealing to me since day one of Ms. Heflin's Sunday school class, and this website has not changed that.

But that's ok. I'm not here to look for reasons to become a Christian. I'm here because,

1. I don't want to live in an echo chamber. Almost everyone I know and interact with regularly is either atheist, irreligious, or very liberal in their religion. The internet is the most convenient resource for exposure to opposing viewpoints. I consume conservative religious radio, podcasts and youtube videos, and talk to street preachers, for the same reason.

2. It's interesting.

3. I consider the public scrutiny of ideas and the reasoning behind them to be a civic duty.

4. On rare occasions, I like to peruse the 'Christians Only' sections and see what believers say about atheists when they know we can't respond.

In that order.

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InterestedAtheist said:

Speaking as an atheist, no, they don't. Generally speaking, Christians just just aren't good enough at arguing their case. Most of them hardly understand any of the tenents of their own religion. The folks on Christian Forums are sometimes better, or sometimes more unbalanced, but even so, as a general matter, atheists know the Christian religion better, and can argue it better.
The problem is that Christianity just doesn't make sense. This isn't necessarily a disadvantage in a religion; there are parts of the Christian religion that Christians are proud of not understanding. God works in mysterious ways, and all that. the problem is with apologists who convince themselves and others that they actually can win all of their arguments and show atheists the error of their ways, and of course they can't.

If I may offer some advice, Christians showing humility, kindness and helpfulness would be way more convincing, and likely to recruit converts, than fans of Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel.

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according to the statement of purpose for this forum, apologetics are not allowed here. So that means that athiests who ask apologetical questions cannot receive an answer that is allowed per the forum rules.

"No General Apologetics Topics

Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with defending or proving the truths of the Christian faith and doctrines. Discussion and debate on subjects related to general apologetics are not allowed in the Discussion and Debate category forums. Christians who would like to discuss apologetics may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum."

gradyll said:

according to the statement of purpose for this forum, apologetics are not allowed here. So that means that athiests who ask apologetical questions cannot receive an answer that is allowed per the forum rules.

"No General Apologetics Topics

Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with defending or proving the truths of the Christian faith and doctrines. Discussion and debate on subjects related to general apologetics are not allowed in the Discussion and Debate category forums. Christians who would like to discuss apologetics may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum."

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None of the excerpts you posted were apologetics topics. From reading what they said, it looks as if @Ignatius the Kiwi , @bekkilyn and @Eight Foot Manchild were all simply answering the question in a straightforward manner, as was I.

You say that we are not allowed to ask apologetical questions, and I'm sure we all respect that. I can't see a question mark, or any kind of implied question, in anything any of us said.

InterestedAtheist said:

None of the excerpts you posted were apologetics topics. From reading what they said, it looks as if @Ignatius the Kiwi , @bekkilyn and @Eight Foot Manchild were all simply answering the question in a straightforward manner, as was I.

You say that we are not allowed to ask apologetical questions, and I'm sure we all respect that. I can't see a question mark, or any kind of implied question, in anything any of us said.

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oh the rule goes further than that, it does not want apologetics discussion here.

and the responses from athiests here demands it.

gradyll said:

oh the rule goes further than that, it does not want apologetics discussion here.

and the responses from athiests here demands it.

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I don't see that anyone has begun an apologetics discussion as yet. But if you feel an irresistible need to have one, feel free to start a thread in General Apologetics (I believe Christians are allowed to initiate threads there as well?) Otherwise, perhaps you could go to Christians Apologetics, and ask the people there what they think of Christianity.