Jason0047 said:
So Jesus is not referring to believers in general when he talks about sheep or when he talks about loving your neighbor? Again, the burden of proof is on you to produce Scriptural evidence to prove otherwise.
Who has said otherwise? Why would the burden of proof fall on me when I have said no such thing?
Well, I said what I did because you gave me the impression before that all references to sheep in the New Testament is not referring to believers. Is this true? If so, then this is a problem. While Matthew 25:31-46 refers to the gathering of nations it does not say that the Lord will separate a whole nation on a national level from another nation based on whether that nation helped the poor or not. It simply says:
“...and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:” (Matthew 25:32).
Scripture must have another testimony to confirm the truth. Where else does the Bible teach the judgement of nations based on whether they helped the poor or not? Does it make logical sense that a nation that does not believe in Jesus but they helped the poor that they would be given a chance to enter God’s kingdom? Is that not salvation by works without God’s grace?
Oh, and my view on Matthew 25:31-46 can be defended with other Scripture verses.
Luke 10:25-37 says that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (And we learn that loving our neighbor is helping the beat up poor guy on the side of the road).
In the Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man we learn that the reason why the Rich-man was in the torments was because he did not help Lazarus who was poor and in need (Read: Luke 16:19-31, and take note of Luke 16:19-23 as you read it).
Also, the Rich-man begged Abraham for mercy and said,
"I am tormented in this flame."
But Abraham said,
"Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."
(Luke 16:24-25).
Also, the "
Sheep and the Goats Parable" concludes with this:
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46).
So it is referring generally to the righteous who will enter into eternal life, here who are the saints. This is not talking about a particular nation or two entering the Millennial Kingdom (Based upon whether or not they gave to the poor).
You said:
You need to read it again. You seem to add things to the scripture passages which are not there. These are not nations before God's throne. They are people from all nations, kindred, peoples, and tongues.
I am aware of Revelation 7 says, and I have always agreed with this interpretation, as well. I know that it is dealing with individual believers. My reference of Revelation 7 was to refute your wrong thinking on Matthew 25. For just because the word “nations” appear in Revelation 7, does not mean it is referring to nations as a whole like you seem to imply with Matthew 25.
You said:
This is a scene that takes place in Heaven and not on the earth.
Again, I was never in disagreement with you on Revelation 7. I brought it up as a point to refute your view on Matthew 25. Matthew 25 is talking about individuals from out of the gathering of all nations.
You said:
The nations as such will be on the earth - both in the Millennial Kingdom when the Lord will judge the and rule them with a rod of iron from His position in Israel and or on the new earth throughout eternity. You do realize, don't you, that certain nations as well as people who came out of some nations will be rewarded and present in the Millennium and on the new earth to follow (Revelation 21 & 22) and some will not and they will be destroyed from memory?
Some of the sorting will be based on how they did or did not treat Israel and Christians in the church age and or during the Tribulation period.
Many (Israel, Assyria, Egypt, Philistia, Moab, Damascus, Ethiopia, Edom, Arabia, and Tyre - for instance) are called by name in the scriptures. Many others are conspicuous by their absence.
I'm quite sure that your take it wrong.
A topic for another thread.
You said:
...you seem to see what you want to see and ignore what doesn't fit your theology.
I am willing to admit when I am wrong. For example: I admitted that I was wrong about the reference to “nations” in Matthew 25:31-46. So if I see it in the Word of God, I am willing to amend what I believe to fit what the Scriptures say. Have you never made any such mistake before? Are you willing to change based on what God’s Word says?
You said:
You just don't get to do that and remain a serious theologian in the eyes of others.
It was never my intention to be a Theologian in the eyes of others. I am not out to impress men, but I am out to impress the Lord our God.
Jason0047 said:
After we are saved by God's grace, God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
You said:
No kidding. Has anyone said otherwise?
Many here say otherwise. Many say we are only saved by having a belief on Jesus Christ, and that no works of faith is required as a part of the salvation process. They believe that they can die in unrepentant grievous sin (like lying, lust, or hating, etc.) and still be saved. I sure hope this is not the case in regards to your view of Soteriology.
You said:
The difference between you and me is that I see these works flowing out of God's relationship with us through the Holy Spirit with Whom we have been sealed and you see them as being necessary either to gain that justified status or keep that justified status.
A moment ago you appeared to agree with me that works of God done through us play a part in the salvation process. Now you are disagreeing? Yes, I do see doing certain works as a part of being justified. For James says,
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
You said:
I believe that He is the author of my faith and that He will perfect it all through my life through the leading or discipline of His Holy Spirit and that having passed from death to life through faith I will never again come into condemnation. I believe that I am even now seated spiritually on the throne with Christ and ruling by faith in the Kingdom of God.
So if a believer holds to this view that you have (Not referring to you personally here), what happens to their salvation if they commit a grievous sin (like say lying, lusting after a woman, or hating their brother)? Do they lose their salvation status if they do not get a chance to confess of their sin to the Lord before they die? Or does a believer need to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin?
I say this because Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.
I say this because Jesus said that looking upon a woman in lust will cause one to be cast bodily into hell fire (See: Matthew 5:28-30).
I say this because John says that if one hates their brother they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See: 1 John 3:15).
I say this because John says that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (See 1 John 1:9).
I say this because we have to walk in the light as He is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin (See: 1 John 1:7).
You said:
You believe that you are the author of your faith
Not true. I believe in Prevenient Grace.
This is the view that God draws men at certain points of time within their life so that they may accept or reject the gospel of their own free will choice. Without this drawing from God, the seed of the Word cannot be sown in their heart and the enemy will quickly take it out from them.
Anyways, the Bible says,
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17).
You said:
...and that you must maintain it
Does the Bible teach that we have to keep or maintain our faith?
I would say…. “yes.” It does.
Here are the verses:
“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to
continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts of the Apostles 14:22).
“
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:23).
“
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:” (1 Timothy 1:19).
“Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing,
if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.” (1 Timothy 2:15).
“
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).
“I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course,
I have kept the faith:” (2 Timothy 4:7).
“
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7).
You said:
or be you will be lost again and come into condemnation. You apparently either don't believe what your status is in the Kingdom of God or you think that you climb up on or down from the throne depending on how you are doing at a particular time in your spiritual life.
The Bible says work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
How exactly does that work for you?
You said:
One position (mine) is faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ and the other (yours) is a lack of faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
The true imputation of Christ’s atonement is by walking in the light as He (Christ) is in the light (See again 1 John 1:7). For Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (See Hebrews 5:9).
You said:
Whether or not your false beliefs rise to the level of what God calls another gospel (which is no gospel at all) or whether you will simply suffer great loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ for having obeyed Him for the wrong reasons thinking that you were becoming deserving of salvation or earning it somehow -- only time will tell. I hope it's only a loss of rewards that you will experience and not a lack of having trusted Jesus Christ as your only hope of salvation.
Let’s not make it personal. On the forums, we are not supposed to do that.
It is best to discuss our beliefs in a generic third party kind of way.
Anyways, I believe that without God’s grace, nobody can be saved. All the work in the world cannot save a person without God’s grace. God’s grace is the foundation upon which we stand. God’s grace through faith in Christ and faith in His death and resurrection is how we get initially saved. We stand upon this truth as the basis of our foundation. Jesus is our Savior. If a believer sins, they can confess their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven again (saved again). For if we are not forgiven by God, how can we be saved? I believe works of faith (i.e. Obedience to the commands in the New Testament, and not the commands in the Old Testament) are a result of all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity working in a believer.
But without faith or trust in Jesus as our Savior…. we are lost. That is the foundation of our faith.
Jesus. He is our Savior. It is by His grace we are initially and ultimately saved. But His grace is not a license for immorality or a license to sin on any level. This is the danger I see behind a Belief Alone Type Gospel these days.
You said:
As for me - I know Whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against the day of Judgment that is coming to everyone who ever lived.
I am sorry. I just do not see your belief taught in the Bible.
Again, I am curious as to how you interpret Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, and 1 John 3:15.
You said:
Say what you want to about the supposed dangers of believing the way I do about His grace and perseverance. But, leaving this life for the next, I wouldn't trade my faith for your lack of faith for all the gold in all the world.
Ah, 1 Peter 1:7.
I also would not trade in my faith for all the gold in the world, either.
But how exactly do you see your faith going through a trial?
Are not trials like tests?
But you see salvation as a done deal.
There is no need for your kind of faith to be put through any kind of trial or a test with your kind of belief.
You are saved regardless of your actions.
At least, that is the impression I get.
Also, I believe I am able to explain my view of Soteriology with the Bible.
This simply cannot be done with your belief.
I have argued against OSAS or Belief Alone-ism for about 8 years now.
I have even tried to see your belief from my opponents perspective many times, and it just never works in light of what God's Word plainly says.
In addition, your belief cannot be made into a real world example or Parable, either.
Many have committed suicide thinking they would be saved as a result of OSAS.
So I do not see OSAS or Belief Alone-ism as these fun loving wonderful beliefs that you do, my friend.
Anyways, may the Lord’s goodness be upon you (even if we disagree strongly in regards to the topic of Soteriology within the Bible).
Sincerely,
Jason.
