Why Abortion Should Be Allowed in the Early Stages

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Davidnic

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Also applying views from St. Thomas turns back on the ones trying argue for abortion. Because if you take his methods and arguments and apply them to current scientific knowledge it comes out for conception.

The only reason it can be turned in a different direction is because of what he didn't know at the time. But if you take his arguments, current scientific knowledge leads them to life begins at conception.

In addition to that he would accept dogma by intrinsic connection.

So using him falls apart completely.
 
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Davidnic

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Realize that Aquinas was working on Aristotle. and he thought sperm was an organizing principle not contributing any material. By his own argument since we now know it's sperm provides part of the material genetic form... The argument he constructed works as a pro-life argument for life at conception able to hold full ensoulment.

Interesting that he constructed an argument that actually logically proves pro life principles that he didn't have the scientific knowledge to know yet.

St. Thomas Aquinas: Pro-Choice?

Aquinas on Abortion

Quoted from above:

Despite what some may think could be done with Aquinas’s position on the timing of ensoulment, given Aquinas’s principles it seems clear that Aquinas would not conclude the same things given today’s science. In any case, however, was in line with the Church on this issue – and thus it would be illicit to ascribe any kind of pro-abortion stance to him.
 
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Enahs4Him

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So you have a unique form of life, separate from the mother, that is human with a heartbeat and brain activity and killing it isn't murder? God knew Jeremiah before he was in the womb, but He doesn't know these flesh pieces we can discard? That just makes no sense to me. Sorry.

Wow. Good post brother.
 
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GenemZ

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

The only person free to make a clear decision on abortion is a believer who has sound doctrinal teaching to know when God imputes the human soul ("min betin" (Hebrew) and, Ek kolia (Greek)) - meaning 'from the womb.'

God only imputes the "neshamah" - the spark of life - to a viable fetus emerging from the womb. King James got that translation correct.

I know this teaching well. I also agree with it. Up to a point.

But.. we have a problem. One that is potentially evil if its not thought through with more Scripture ... If its not balanced, it can be dangerous and reckless.

Jesus warned that if a man lusts in his heart for a woman, that as far as God is concerned? That man has already committed adultery with just a thought. And, if a man holds unjustified anger towards another? That in his heart (as far as God is concerned)? That man in his thought commits murder.

So... Anyone who gets an abortion? But, avoids serious Bible study? They have no way of knowing that the kicking and moving fetus is not having a soul.

Everything that human reasoning (devoid of doctrine) can come up with would be to assume that the kicking and moving fetus is human life!

So, what would the anti-doctrine types be doing? In their heart they do not care if its a human being, or not. And, they can not prove it isn't. So? They do not care if they do in fact take a human life. And, we all know. God judges the thoughts and intent of the heart = murder. Just like a man wrongly angry with his brother, murders.

Irony is? The only person who can keep a clean slate before God is a person who learns sound doctrine and knows that the human soul (breathed into the body) is not given until the fetus is ..... from the womb.

No, the KJV did not use archaic English when it said "from the womb." I thought it had used old English until I learned something from a Greek and Hebrew scholar. For that is literally what the Greek and Hebrew says about birth. That the person becomes a person.. "from the womb." That is when God breaths in the soul. Its found in both the New and Old testaments. God does not change!

I used to wonder why the KJV translated it that way. Then my pastor who was an excellent Hebrew and Greek scholar sat us down and told us what the Scriptures say. He took a lot of flack for that teaching. But, he stuck with what the Hebrew and Greek tells us because he knew that it was what God put in the original languages, so we could know the Mind of Christ.

Just the same. Anyone not having - nor wanting - this knowledge? He, or she , commits murder in their heart, because they are willing to take a chance with a human life that they have no way to be certain they are not destroying a human life. If we think it? God knows the intent.

Yet, this teaching can help heal some who believe they did murder. They walk around with terrible guilt feelings. For, there are two sides to this teaching.
 
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PaulCyp1

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"The early stages", you say. The early stages of what? Oh, the early states in the life of a human being! Why didn't you say so? No young child can "survive on his/her own", not at 1 month or 3 months or 5 months or 8 months, or during the first several years after birth. Children of all these ages require the constant care of their mother. Brutally slaughtering them at any age for personal convenience is a sickening crime and sin. Yes, murder is indeed "the unjustified killing of a living human being". It has nothing to do with the religion, IQ, nationality, color, sex or age of the victim. Every human being is a beloved child of God from the moment of conception. How can you correctly state the definition of murder, and then try to justify the murder of children of a particular age? Yes, a woman has bodily autonomy - over HER body, not the living bodies of her children.
 
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SPF

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God only imputes the "neshamah" - spark of life - to a viable fetus emerging from the womb.

I know this teaching well. I also agree with it.
This seems to be at odds with Luke 1 where John the Baptist leaps for joy and we are told was filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb.

So unless you’re prepared to say that a spirit filled unborn person didn’t have a soul, you and your Pastor are very wrong.
 
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Enahs4Him

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How do evangelical Christians come up with polar opposite beliefs on things like abortion?

I'm with you. It boggles my mind that we're having a debate on something so obvious; The Christian church is in a sad state. Abortion is murder, but there is repentance and forgiveness for those who have had one or for those who have supported it.
 
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topher694

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God knows us before we are in our mother's wombs, yes. So what.

He is omniscient, meaning that He is all-knowing, and knows everything past, present and future. That does not mean that are unborns are living human beings from the moment of conception; there is no evidence they have a soul at that point, as Saints Augustine and Thomas Aquinas aptly pointed out, as babies can not even feel anything, least of all pain, in the first trimester.



You appear to be espousing the position of traducianism, the notion that all human beings obtain their souls biologically from their parents, with only Adam's soul being specifically created by God. You should know that this contradicts the notion of the indivisibility of the soul, and is widely rejected by modern Christian theologians as well as the medieval ones, who held that God creates a soul for each body that is generated. see here

Early abortion cannot be said to be murder, as murder is the unjustifiable killing of a living human being, and an early fetus has not been ensouled yet, is not viable to survive on its own outside the womb, and as such, it isn't murder.
Oh please, your arguments are all over the place and nonsensical. You go ahead and trumpet a God of death, and I'll trumpet a savior who came so that all could have LIFE and have it more abundantly.
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Something is wrong when we treat motherhood as being like a 'living incubator' and innocent victim, here the child, must die to satisfy her desires.

It's even more disconcerting and sad when abortion is an acceptable option for many Christians.
 
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GodLovesCats

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It is my personal opinion that you can not be a Christian and approve of abortion.

Further, it is also my personal opinion that if a person approves of abortion then they are either evil or ignorant.

If you mean the single word "cannot," you are totally wrong. It is not an opinion, but a fact, that a person can be a Christian and support women's right at the same time. Otherwise I would not be a Christian. Are you trying to tell people they are not Christians just because they support abortions when the mother has to choose between her own life and the baby's life or takes a Plan B pill?
 
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twin.spin

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Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

Human life must begin at conception for us to be "sinful from the time my mother conceived me." and that our "inmost being" starts to begin to be knitted together in my mother's womb.
 
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GenemZ

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This seems to be at odds with Luke 1 where John the Baptist leaps for joy and we are told was filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb.

So unless you’re prepared to say that a spirit filled unborn person didn’t have a soul, you and your Pastor are very wrong.

At first glance its normal to see it that way. The natural man would agree.

John the Baptist's fetus was surrounded with water. Sounds were not the same. Ever duck under water and find you can not hear sounds coming from above the water?

Elizabeth said that when the voice of Mary reached her ears the fetus in her womb leaped in the sphere of her joy. Likewise.. When a mother is scared? Adrenalin is pumping through her body as the fetus also physically reacts. No thought in the fetus. Just a biological reaction.

John could not understand. He did not even have vocabulary yet. His fetus leaped as a sign how overwhelmed in joy Elizabeth (who was filled with the Spirit) became when the voice reached 'her ears.' It was recorded to reveal the intensity of her joy.


For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines." Judg 13:5

Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? Jb 3:11

I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly." Ps 22:10 (note! not his God in the womb)

Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen." Isa 44:2 (The Lord formed his character after he was born. The potter and the clay)

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." Lk 1:15
 
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ChicanaRose

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Yes, of innocent living blood. If a scientist were to shed the blood of a donated corpse for medical research, it would not bother the Lord.

And fetuses in the early trimesters are not living yet, as they do not have souls.

Third-trimester abortion for reasons other than to save the mother's life are heinous and murder, and I would be opposed to that.

I respect that you have your own opinion, and appreciate you opening up a discussion on CF.

While I rarely use the phrase, "I disagree," in this instance, I would have to.
 
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twin.spin

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If you mean the single word "cannot," you are totally wrong. It is not an opinion, but a fact, that a person can be a Christian and support women's right at the same time. Otherwise I would not be a Christian. Are you trying to tell people they are not Christians just because they support abortions when the mother has to choose between her own life and the baby's life or takes a Plan B pill?
And fact is abortions when the mother has to choose between her own life and the baby's life is extremely rare (less than 1%* ~ Guttmacher Institute**).

Which means the balance of abortions are elective for a varied of reasons.

* lump in all NON life threatening health issues that are cited by mothers as a reason for abortion then the total number only increases to 2.8%

** Guttmacher Institute: a research organization started in 1968 that works to study, educate, and advance sexual and reproductive health and rights.
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body. I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother. Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being. And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.


The Bible also doesn't say that we have any rights, especially a right to bodily autonomy. Biblically, the only "right" we have is to worship, love, and obey God. The Bible does clearly implies that the life in the womb is precious and just as valuable as any other human life regardless of "viability".

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden. Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

It seems as though that you used Genesis 2:7 to suggest that ensoulment happens when the baby has their first breath. Why then do you use "viability" as your standard on the morality of abortion? Why then would it matter if a baby was aborted at 9 months before they could have their first breath?

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Based on what grounds. Why would it not be murder at 9 months if there is no ensoulment before its first breath? Technically, based on your reference to Genesis 2:7, the unborn child at 9 months is merely a human husk without a soul.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two years from complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.
Again, you are basing this logic on an ungrounded principle that "bodily autonomy" is a God given human right. A right that does not biblically exist. Furthermore, you admit that abortion at all stages is a sin (I agree), although you believe that it isn't murder in the early stages of development (no biblical justification). However, your logic paints yourself into a corner. First, your opinion is not biblically grounded so it is really nothing more than just your opinion, Second, your opinion goes against many references which suggest that life in the womb is as precious as any other human life. Thus, your ungrounded opinion is in fact, unbiblical. Third, your ungrounded and unbiblical opinion leaves you unable to logically justify your opposition to late term abortions without setting a double standard. In any case, it doesn't matter because you flat out admit that abortion at all stages of development is a sin. So why, as a Christian, are you promoting and advocating something that you consider to be a sin by advocating for abortion in the first trimester?
 
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Calminian

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God knows us before we are in our mother's wombs, yes. So what.

I think the what is, this means that killing an early unborn baby is actually the killing of a person that God knows. That seems pretty serious. Jesus was once an early fetus or seed, as prophecy states.

He is omniscient, meaning that He is all-knowing, and knows everything past, present and future. That does not mean that are unborns are living human beings from the moment of conception; there is no evidence they have a soul at that point, as Saints Augustine and Thomas Aquinas aptly pointed out, as babies can not even feel anything, least of all pain, in the first trimester.

You seem to have evolved on this. You went from the speculations of Augustine, to a dogmatic view that God definitely waits to ensoul and body of the unborn. Are you really that sure now?

Early abortion cannot be said to be murder, as murder is the unjustifiable killing of a living human being, and an early fetus has not been ensouled yet, is not viable to survive on its own outside the womb, and as such, it isn't murder.

I have two objections: There is no clear proof that even a pre-soul killing is not murder. It may not be, but I don't see any definitive biblical proof either way. I don't think most early church fathers did either. They were fairly humble on this topic.

In addition to this, I don't see definitive biblical proof that God waits until a later stage of pregnancy to ensoul an unborn baby. Again, maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Maybe is the third trimester. Maybe it's at the heartbeat stage as that's when the life blood begins to flow. It's a fair speculation. But considering the seriousness of murder, should we really make that call based on a speculation?

As a poster challenged you with earlier, who decides? What if someone else believes babies are ensouled at birth? What if someone believes they are ensouled in their first year after birth? The later is quite ridiculous, but I've definitely heard speculations about the former.

Regardless, is it not best to play it safe?
 
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The second trimester is not an early stage. Some fetuses are considered viable before the third trimester. Also, the first two months they are embryos, not fetuses.

There is no innecent blood to be shed before the body is complete. Using those verses, abortion is OK if it happens before the embryo has a cardiovascular system.
"The shedding of blood" is not a term to be taken in a literal sense. Otherwise, donating blood to the Red Cross, according to your logic, would be a sin equivalent to murder. "The sheading of blood" means to murder or take innocent life that is not yours to take and does not require a cardiovascular system to make that possible.
 
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GenemZ

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Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

Human life must begin at conception for us to be "sinful from the time my mother conceived me." and that our "inmost being" starts to begin to be knitted together in my mother's womb.

One moment, please... No doubt, biological life begins at conception.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me."

Young's Literal translation reads..

Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth,
And in sin doth my mother conceive me."

It says his mother was the one in sin. And, when he was brought forth (out from the womb) he came out being a sinner by nature.



Our soul was given by God.

Your parents only gave you your body. God gives the soul.

More important? The sin nature is biological. Its in the flesh. Its been passed down from Adam. Its a physical defect that Adam caused in the fall for all of us.

David was conceived to be a sinner at the moment of his conception.

That is why we need to become co-crucified with Christ. For, God sees our body as executed, and that we no longer live in our sin nature, but Christ lives in us by faith.
 
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