Catholicism Is Hard

Presbyterian Continuist

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Shimokita

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Presbyterian Continuist

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That's nice, but you still have not produced anything in the canon law that teaches that "I am sunk".

I doubt that you have even ever read the code of canon law. I am amused.
I think that we are going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on these matters, otherwise we get into a two horse race which will end in just a stalemate. (sorry about the mixed metaphor!).
 
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Shimokita

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I think that we are going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on these matters, otherwise we get into a two horse race which will end in just a stalemate. (sorry about the mixed metaphor!).
You can respectfully disagree all you like. None of that changes the fact that you haven’t even looked at the code of canon law. It is amusing that you are going around protesting things that you have not even looked at.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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You can respectfully disagree all you like. None of that changes the fact that you haven’t even looked at the code of canon law. It is amusing that you are going around protesting things that you have not even looked at.
It is interesting being dead in Christ because that makes me nothing at all, so my opinion, in itself is worth nothing except to those who may think it is worth something to them. So, whether I agree or disagree, that also means nothing, like Solomon says in Ecclesiastes: "All is vanity!"

So, because this thread has now become a two horse race, it has turned to vanity and nothing more of value to me.
 
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Shimokita

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It is interesting being dead in Christ because that makes me nothing at all, so my opinion, in itself is worth nothing except to those who may think it is worth something to them. So, whether I agree or disagree, that also means nothing, like Solomon says in Ecclesiastes: "All is vanity!"

So, because this thread has now become a two horse race, it has turned to vanity and nothing more of value to me.
None of that changes the fact that you haven’t even looked at the code of canon law.
 
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WebersHome

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Matt 25:41 . .Then he will say to those on his left: Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

The Greek word for "angels" is aggelos (ang'-el-os) which is one of the Bible's many ambiguous words. It means messenger; and it isn't limited to spirit beings.

For example at Matt 11:10 it refers to John the Baptist. At Luke 7:24 it refers to John's disciples. At Acts 7:53 and Gal 3:19 it refers to divine apparitions in the form of voices, fire, smoke, earthquakes, and a human likeness. At Jas 2:25 it refers to the spies that hid out at Rahab's home. At Rev 1:20-Rev 3:14, the word aggelos refers to high-ranking church officers.

So, we have in view at Matt 25:41 not only spirit beings, but quite possibly also human beings who serve as messengers for the Devil, e.g. preachers, ministers, Sunday school teachers, deacons, missionaries, evangelists, priests, cultists, etc; whose version of Christianity is a doctored version rather than Christ's.

2Cor 11:13-15 . . For such are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

I have a personal interest in this matter. My eldest brother is a Friar; he and I are both now in our mid to late seventies. My brother has been spending his entire adult life obedient to Rome and propagating Catholicism. If it turns out that his version of Christianity differs from Christ's, then my brother won't make it to safety when he passes on. His life's work will go up in smoke, and he'll be branded forever as one of the Devil's angels. That possibility does not set well with me.
_
 
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Boidae

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I am a cradle Catholic (yes, it says Lutheran, but I was attending a Lutheran church and I am personally not able to change it back) having been baptized as an infant by my family. I want out of Catholicism, but there is no way to do that because back in 2009 they made it so you cannot formally leave the church anymore. Once baptized Catholic always Catholic and all that.

Had I been given a choice as to what church I wanted to belong to it wouldn't have been the Catholic church.
 
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tz620q

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I am a cradle Catholic (yes, it says Lutheran, but I was attending a Lutheran church and I am personally not able to change it back) having been baptized as an infant by my family. I want out of Catholicism, but there is no way to do that because back in 2009 they made it so you cannot formally leave the church anymore. Once baptized Catholic always Catholic and all that.

Had I been given a choice as to what church I wanted to belong to it wouldn't have been the Catholic church.
I think we need to clarify what you stated. Here is a quote from an article called, "How to stop being Catholic"

"When you leave the Church by a formal act. In Canon Law, this is known as "defection from the Catholic Church by a formal act" (in Latin: actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica). The details of how you do this practically were recently clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts (on 13 March 2006). Here is the essential excerpt:

"1. For the abandonment of the Catholic Church to be validly configured as a true actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia so that the exceptions foreseen in the previously mentioned canons would apply, it is necessary that there concretely be:

a) the internal decision to leave the Catholic Church;
b) the realization and external manifestation of that decision; and
c) the reception of that decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority."

Baptism is an indelible permanant seal, like being born
The Actus Formulus document by the Vatican says:

It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

Someone can be in "apostacy", drifted away, or may have formally ceased being Catholic by writing a letter. However, once Baptism is conferred upon someone, the sacramental bond can never be undone, even though the saving grace and power can be lost through sin, or through a formal act of defection."
 
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nanookadenord

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I think we need to clarify what you stated. Here is a quote from an article called, "How to stop being Catholic"

"When you leave the Church by a formal act. In Canon Law, this is known as "defection from the Catholic Church by a formal act" (in Latin: actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica). The details of how you do this practically were recently clarified by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts (on 13 March 2006). Here is the essential excerpt:

"1. For the abandonment of the Catholic Church to be validly configured as a true actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia so that the exceptions foreseen in the previously mentioned canons would apply, it is necessary that there concretely be:

a) the internal decision to leave the Catholic Church;
b) the realization and external manifestation of that decision; and
c) the reception of that decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority."

Baptism is an indelible permanant seal, like being born
The Actus Formulus document by the Vatican says:

It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

Someone can be in "apostacy", drifted away, or may have formally ceased being Catholic by writing a letter. However, once Baptism is conferred upon someone, the sacramental bond can never be undone, even though the saving grace and power can be lost through sin, or through a formal act of defection."

In other words, as was said above, once Catholic always Catholic. I'm stuck in a church I would have never joined if given the choice like the person you quoted above.

I have been told that the clarified the law or something back in 2009 which took away the ability to formally defect from the church.
 
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Concord1968

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Bear in mind, they consider anyone with a trinitarian baptism to be "Catholic", so even if you were born, raised, and baptized in, say, an Episcopal church and never set foot in a Catholic church, you're considered a member of the Catholic church by virtue of your baptism.
 
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nanookadenord

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Bear in mind, they consider anyone with a trinitarian baptism to be "Catholic", so even if you were born, raised, and baptized in, say, an Episcopal church and never set foot in a Catholic church, you're considered a member of the Catholic church by virtue of your baptism.

I'm not sure that is correct. They say you have a valid baptism if done per Catholic standards, but I have never heard that you are a member of the Catholic church if baptized in another denomination.

To become a member of the Catholic church one needs to go through RCIA.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I'm not sure that is correct. They say you have a valid baptism if done per Catholic standards, but I have never heard that you are a member of the Catholic church if baptized in another denomination.

To become a member of the Catholic church one needs to go through RCIA.
That is also not really correct. RCIA is not a sacrament.

The sacraments of initiation into the Catholic Church are Confirmation, Baptism and Holy Communion. Receiving them is how one becomes a Catholic. RCIA prepares a convert to receive those sacraments, it's true. But realistically, a priest can administer those sacraments to pretty much anybody at pretty much any time, bypassing RCIA at his own discretion if he chooses to do so. Now, that's pretty rare, of course. But it's not unheard of.
 
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tz620q

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In other words, as was said above, once Catholic always Catholic. I'm stuck in a church I would have never joined if given the choice like the person you quoted above.

I have been told that the clarified the law or something back in 2009 which took away the ability to formally defect from the church.
I quoted from a Catholic document from 2006 on how to "leave" the Catholic church. It seems that this changed in 2009 per this Wiki link:

It seems the 2006 and later 2009 documents were centered around an attempt in Germany for people to avoid the federal tax on them for being members of a church. They would petition the government to take themselves off of church registries to avoid the tax and for a while the German Catholic church accepted these secular defections. In 2006, the requirement was changed to a formal defection that involved the church. After that, you had to formally apply to the church to be removed and after a meeting, it would be granted if a sufficient intent was ascertained.

I can only imagine the extra effort this led to. Now the priests and bishops were placed in the middle of what could very well be just an attempt to avoid taxes. With the state of Christianity being what it is in Europe, the nominal Christians would have flocked to the church to get the paper work rolling. So in 2009, the formal defection was removed from the canon law completely.

This does not mean that you cannot defect from the Catholic church, only that the act of formal defection is no longer available. Actually Canon Law is not really centered around defections of laity. The church is much more interested in members of voting bodies, members of Catholic associations, and members of religious orders. These groups have requirements not to have made a public, notorious defection. So there are procedures in place to remove members who do this.

In reality, I was responding to Boidae not so much about how to defect from the Catholic Church but about the notion that this defection invalidated a Christian baptism, which is considered permanent. I was hoping he would clarify why he would want his baptism to be invalidated if he is now an Episcopalian. When he changed churches, I am positive that they did not require him to be rebaptized, since they recognize the permanent seal of baptism like we do.
 
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nanookadenord

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That is also not really correct. RCIA is not a sacrament.

The sacraments of initiation into the Catholic Church are Confirmation, Baptism and Holy Communion. Receiving them is how one becomes a Catholic. RCIA prepares a convert to receive those sacraments, it's true. But realistically, a priest can administer those sacraments to pretty much anybody at pretty much any time, bypassing RCIA at his own discretion if he chooses to do so. Now, that's pretty rare, of course. But it's not unheard of.

That is basically what I meant. I just simplified it.
 
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WebersHome

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I want out of Catholicism

You could, if you wanted, just identify yourself as a Christian; nothing wrong with that.

1Pet 4:16 . . But whoever is made to suffer as a Christian should not be ashamed, but glorify God because of the name.
_
 
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Major1

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I am a cradle Catholic (yes, it says Lutheran, but I was attending a Lutheran church and I am personally not able to change it back) having been baptized as an infant by my family. I want out of Catholicism, but there is no way to do that because back in 2009 they made it so you cannot formally leave the church anymore. Once baptized Catholic always Catholic and all that.

Had I been given a choice as to what church I wanted to belong to it wouldn't have been the Catholic church.

The important thing my friend is that you be a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ plus NOTHING!

That is all that matters no matter what else is posted on this site.

Salvation is ONLY found in the Lord Jesus and not in any church or denomination.
 
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Major1

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In other words, as was said above, once Catholic always Catholic. I'm stuck in a church I would have never joined if given the choice like the person you quoted above.

I have been told that the clarified the law or something back in 2009 which took away the ability to formally defect from the church.

My dear friend...…..the Catholic church is not going to come and lock you up.

All anyone has to do is walk away.

Then go and find yourself a Bible believing Protestant church where Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ is preached.

Acts 4:12...........
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
 
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