Catholicism Is Hard

Oscarr said:

The Council of Trent states that anyone who holds that faith in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation is also anathema.

Click to expand...

The ordering of words is very important. Can you quote the section which says that?

Oscarr said:

Also, in the Eucharist, the host becomes the real body and the wine becomes the real blood of Christ, and anyone who does not believe that is also anathema according to the Council of Trent.

Click to expand...

St. Ignatius of Antioch called them heretics.

thecolorsblend said:

The ordering of words is very important. Can you quote the section which says that?

St. Ignatius of Antioch called them heretics.

Click to expand...

The Council Of Trent

Canon XXIV. If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof: let him be anathema.

Canon XXXII. If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified…does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life— if so be, however, that he depart in grace,—and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed.), Decree on Justification, Chapters V, VI, VII, X, XIV, XV, XVI).

Boy am I glad that I asked you to quote the sections because I misunderstood your other post, apparently.

Oscarr said:

Canon XXIV. If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof: let him be anathema.

Click to expand...

What is the nature of your disagreement with that passage?

Oscarr said:

Canon XXXII. If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified…does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life— if so be, however, that he depart in grace,—and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed.), Decree on Justification, Chapters V, VI, VII, X, XIV, XV, XVI).

Click to expand...

Same question, if you don't mind answering them.

thecolorsblend said:

Boy am I glad that I asked you to quote the sections because I misunderstood your other post, apparently.

What is the nature of your disagreement with that passage?

[QUOTE="Oscarr, post: 73971391, member: 105812"Canon XXXII. If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified…does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life— if so be, however, that he depart in grace,—and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919 ed.), Decree on Justification, Chapters V, VI, VII, X, XIV, XV, XVI).

Click to expand...

Same question, if you don't mind answering them.[/QUOTE]
It implies that if one depends on Christ alone for salvation without accompanying works (whatever they are), he is, according to the Catholic church, he is anathema. There were many excommunicated from the church because they maintained that Justification was through faith in Christ alone, and that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was once and for all, and the continual sacrifice of the Mass was not Biblical.

Oscarr said:

Same question, if you don't mind answering them.

Click to expand...

It implies that if one depends on Christ alone for salvation without accompanying works (whatever they are), he is, according to the Catholic church, he is anathema. There were many excommunicated from the church because they maintained that Justification was through faith in Christ alone, and that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was once and for all, and the continual sacrifice of the Mass was not Biblical.[/QUOTE]Based on continuity of belief, my Church teaches the cooperative nature of our relationship with God. On that basis, it’s a little absurd (and illogical) (and ahistorical) to suppose that our personal conduct has no bearing on our relationship with God or the increase of grace in our lives.

Some of the five solas are hard enough to believe in as it is. But my critique of some of them is that they suggest that men are made more or less spiritually complete after coming initially to faith. I suspect many Protestants wouldn’t phrase it in exactly that way but that does seem to be the essence of their belief in this matter. In the main, theirs seems to be a rather simplistic (I might add reductive) appraisal of a very complex subject.

My Church, by contrast, recognizes that one’s personal conduct and behaviors heavily influence their walk with God. It’s a bit silly to suggest that there’s no correlation between pure living and sanctifying graces.

Oscarr said:

It implies that if one depends on Christ alone for salvation without accompanying works (whatever they are), he is, according to the Catholic church, he is anathema.

Click to expand...

When you say "depends on Christ alone" do you mean that there are absolutely no requirements that a man must adhere to, in order for him to be saved?

For example, if a man must put his faith and trust in our Lord Jesus in order to be saved, why cannot someone make the same argument with respect to faith and trust, that you make with respect to works?

In other words, why cannot someone come along and say "it implies that if one depends on Christ alone for salvation without accompanying faith and trust (whatever the type), he is, according to Protestant theology, anathema."

Shimokita said:

When you say "depends on Christ alone" do you mean that there are absolutely no requirements that a man must adhere to, in order for him to be saved?

For example, if a man must put his faith and trust in our Lord Jesus in order to be saved, why cannot someone make the same argument with respect to faith and trust, that you make with respect to works?

In other words, why cannot someone come along and say "it implies that if one depends on Christ alone for salvation without accompanying faith and trust (whatever the type), he is, according to Protestant theology, anathema."

Click to expand...

The one-time substitution of Christ on the cross for us is all we need for salvation when be believe in Him. The works that follow are voluntary and out of love for Christ because we want to do the things that He loves. It is not to make us acceptable to Him, because the finished work of Christ on the cross has already achieved that.

Having to attend Mass and have Christ sacrificed for us every Sunday is another way of saying we have to be born again afresh every Sunday, which doesn't make sense to me.

Oscarr said:

Having to attend Mass and have Christ sacrificed for us every Sunday is another way of saying we have to be born again afresh every Sunday, which doesn't make sense to me.

Click to expand...

That doesn't make sense to me either. Luckily that isn't what the Catholic Church teaches.

thecolorsblend said:

That doesn't make sense to me either. Luckily that isn't what the Catholic Church teaches.

Click to expand...

I'll just leave it there out of respect for you guys.

Oscarr said:

I'll just leave it there out of respect for you guys.

Click to expand...

I don't see how anybody's respect for anybody else is at stake in this thread.

Based upon your post, it looks like you are very mistaken about what my Church teaches concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. I simply thought it best to alert you about that.

Oscarr said:

The one-time substitution of Christ on the cross for us is all we need for salvation when be believe in Him. The works that follow are voluntary and out of love for Christ because we want to do the things that He loves. It is not to make us acceptable to Him, because the finished work of Christ on the cross has already achieved that.

Having to attend Mass and have Christ sacrificed for us every Sunday is another way of saying we have to be born again afresh every Sunday, which doesn't make sense to me.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your opinion. Let me know if you ever feel like actually answering the question.

Shimokita said:

Thanks for your opinion. Let me know if you ever feel like actually answering the question.

Click to expand...

The problem is that the Catholic church has exchanged the Mosaic Law with Church canon law, which amounts to basically the same thing.

Oscarr said:

The problem is that the Catholic church has exchanged the Mosaic Law with Church canon law, which amounts to basically the same thing.

Click to expand...

How so?

thecolorsblend said:

How so?

Click to expand...

My point is that those who attempt to follow law to be justified instead of faith in Christ alone, bring a curse on themselves (Galatians 3:10). Mosaic or canon law, it makes no difference.

Oscarr said:

My point is that those who attempt to follow law to be justified instead of faith in Christ alone, bring a curse on themselves (Galatians 3:10). Mosaic or canon law, it makes no difference.

Click to expand...

Um, are you sure you understand the substance and purpose of Canon Law?

thecolorsblend said:

Um, are you sure you understand the substance and purpose of Canon Law?

Click to expand...

I'm going to stop here to avoid getting off topic with the thread turning into a two horse race.

Oscarr said:

The problem is that the Catholic church has exchanged the Mosaic Law with Church canon law, which amounts to basically the same thing.

Click to expand...

Nonsense.

Shimokita said:

Nonsense.

Click to expand...

Miss going to Mass a few Sundays in a row and see what happens.

Oscarr said:

Miss going to Mass a few Sundays in a row and see what happens.

Click to expand...

I have missed Mass a few Sundays in a row. What happens to me?

Shimokita said:

I have missed Mass a few Sundays in a row. What happens to me?

Click to expand...

According to canon law you are sunk!!