Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

Saint Steven

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Do you reckon Paul was addressing more legalism here, such as was common with the Judaizers who kept harassing the new congregations among the gentiles?
No. He goes on to explain exactly what he means by "the law".

Galatians 3:10-12
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”
 
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Greengardener

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No. He goes on to explain exactly what he means by "the law".

Galatians 3:10-12
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

It's there, for sure. I wonder if the operative word here is "relies on" the law, since Paul was speaking to people who were apparently off focus, which takes us back to the check list concept. What's your take on this, Steven?
 
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Saint Steven

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It's there, for sure. I wonder if the operative word here is "relies on" the law, since Paul was speaking to people who were apparently off focus, which takes us back to the check list concept. What's your take on this, Steven?
This is from the same chapter. Before... until... now.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
 
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Greengardener

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Having a view of the law from the perspective of Christ backward, I definitely struggle with Paul's accounting here. I didn't have the advantage of being held under the custody of the law, as I was enslaved by lawlessness instead, without hope and without God in the world. Then Jesus changed everything. Not knowing the reasons Paul took this explanation to the Galatians is a disadvantage, because it doesn't jive with Jesus' apparent view of the same (?) law according to Matthew 5.19. I figure there must be a reason. How do you put it together, Steve?
 
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mmksparbud

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So Sunday observing Christians, having the mark of the beast, is not sin? We can have the mark of the beast and still not sin?

No one has the mark of the beast yet---it is when it is made law.
As with Daniel's friends when the command to bow down to the image was made law, it then became a matter of to whom allegiance is due, God or man.
 
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mmksparbud

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Question: Should I cut this verse out of my Bible and throw it away?



I was reading it and it didn't quite support the SDA view so should I cut it out of my Bible and paste something from Ellen White in it's place instead?

Should I also cut this verse out as it assumes Ellen White is wrong?



This verse assumes something happened after creation...something like the fall of man...which doesn't seem to agree with E.G.White's view of an untainted creation with no need for a Savior. The verse says "finish His work" but wasn't that work finished on the Sabbath day? So what work needed to be finished that wasn't finished?

I guess I'll have to cut that verse out of my Bible and paste in its place an Ellen White verse instead.


Why do you bring in EGW? Was she alive at creation when the 7th day was made sanctified by God? Was she there when it was again stated as the 4th commandment? Was she there when Isaiah wrote:
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
You may do what you want with your bible to make it agree with your view point. The Sabbath never was a commandment from anyone but God. We do not get our doctrines from EGW but from the bible, same place she got them from. And in the future, please be so kind as to quote your source and the complete quotation that it can be verified, not just what you think she may have said.
 
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mmksparbud

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I'm speaking from a SDA point of view and asking a question to SDA's about eternal security. I want to know from them if people with the mark of the beast can be saved?

I was told a couple of times by SDAs that a Satanic priest can be saved as long as nobody told him about the Sabbath. But if, for example, an SDA comes up and tells the Satanic priest that the Sabbath is on the 7th day, and then the Satanist does agree, then the Satanist avoids the mark of the beast and is saved. But if the Satanic priest disagrees and says Sunday is the day, then that Satanic priest has committed eternal sin because he was told about the Sabbath but didn't listen.

So if we all have the mark of the beast, are we saved?

Seeing as there is no law yet---there is no mark yet. The bible is where you can get your informatio0n about those who do get the mark of the beast and those who do not when it becomes law---

Rev_13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev_15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev_16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 
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Saint Steven

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Having a view of the law from the perspective of Christ backward, I definitely struggle with Paul's accounting here. I didn't have the advantage of being held under the custody of the law, as I was enslaved by lawlessness instead, without hope and without God in the world. Then Jesus changed everything. Not knowing the reasons Paul took this explanation to the Galatians is a disadvantage, because it doesn't jive with Jesus' apparent view of the same (?) law according to Matthew 5.19. I figure there must be a reason. How do you put it together, Steve?
The question is, to what is he referring? What are "these commands"?
Does it refer to what he just said, or what he is about to?
The Beatitudes, or the "You have heard it said... but I tell you..." passage.

Matthew 5:19
Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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FEZZILLA

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Seeing as there is no law yet---there is no mark yet. The bible is where you can get your informatio0n about those who do get the mark of the beast and those who do not when it becomes law---

Well, there is never gonna be a National Sunday Law -- I guarantee you! It will never happen. But there might be a National Friday Law if Muslims get their way.

I know of not one single Christian, protestant or Catholic, who even thinks about this issue. With that said, nobody is planning on taking away your right to keep the Sabbath. Even most Roman Catholic Churches have Sabbath mass. I bet you did not know that. I guess it helps when you actually attend Catholic churches and have friends who are Catholic priests.

The only western people who would try to outlaw keeping the Sabbath are secularists...communists. But they won't tell you to worship on Sunday either. They won't give you any days off from work.

The muslims will force Friday on you. No Christian is ever gonna force Sunday. Its never going to happen.
 
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Saint Steven

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Having a view of the law from the perspective of Christ backward, I definitely struggle with Paul's accounting here.
But Christ was deconstructing the law. In fact it started with John the Baptist.
"... until John." Then what?

Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Luke 16:16
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John.
Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached,
and everyone is forcing their way into it.
 
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1stcenturylady

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But Christ was deconstructing the law. In fact it started with John the Baptist.
"... until John." Then what?

Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Luke 16:16
“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John.
Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached,
and everyone is forcing their way into it.

John, even today, showed us the importance of true repentance. It is making the crooked path straight to Jesus.

Talking about false doctrines, some are so far off the gospel they believe repentance is a "work" and repentance from what? Aren't all our past, present and future sins we will ever be committing automatically cleansed by Jesus? There is no need for repentance or for us to show signs of change...blah, blah, blah.

The gospel only works through repentance. Acts 2:38-39. REPENT! ... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (to stay dead to sin, and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law.) Romans 6:2; Romans 8:1-9
 
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1stcenturylady

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mmksparbud

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Well, there is never gonna be a National Sunday Law -- I guarantee you! It will never happen. But there might be a National Friday Law if Muslims get their way.

I know of not one single Christian, protestant or Catholic, who even thinks about this issue. With that said, nobody is planning on taking away your right to keep the Sabbath. Even most Roman Catholic Churches have Sabbath mass. I bet you did not know that. I guess it helps when you actually attend Catholic churches and have friends who are Catholic priests.

The only western people who would try to outlaw keeping the Sabbath are secularists...communists. But they won't tell you to worship on Sunday either. They won't give you any days off from work.

The muslims will force Friday on you. No Christian is ever gonna force Sunday. Its never going to happen.


As they say---time will tell.
 
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Saint Steven

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So there are more? Please add them that you can think of, including what you believe. No need to point out your own.
I think the list is written in a biased voice.
Seems to be more editorial than factual in some cases.
It would be better if the positions were stated in their own words.

And there are in fact a whole spectrum of beliefs on this subject.
everyone seems to have their own take.

One of the biggest problems that I try to address is definitions.
You and I had this issue with one of my posts here.

Here are two scriptures that have helped to solidify my definitions. Commentary below.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Both of these scriptures make reference to those who "do not have the law".
Obviously this means that the law was not for everyone, nor does everyone "have" the law. But what law is that?

In the Romans scripture the Gentiles are said to not have the law, yet they do have their consciences to guide them in understanding the requirements of the law. Which sounds like a contradiction. But I would say that this is the moral law that some speak of. What the Apostle calls "God's law" in the first Corinthians verse above.

And in that verse, the Apostle explains his position. Since he is Jewish, he was one that had the law, since he had to "become" like one not having the law. But then says he is not free from "God's law" (which he differentiates from "the law") but is under Christ’s law.

So, in all this, I see three categories of law. (there are other unrelated laws)
1) God's law (the moral law of human conscience)
2) The law (given to the Israelites alone through Moses)
3) Christ's law (found in the gospels)

The other definitions issue is about references to the books of the law.
Most famously this one. Which Jesus explained after his resurrection in the verse below that one. This defines what Jesus meant by "fulfill". (prophetically)

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
 
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Danthemailman

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No work of any kind. How do you define "any"?

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath day today, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).

If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why don't Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he only keeps part of it?

If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we don't live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the Old Covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.
 
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Saint Steven

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Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
That's good.
Since verse sixteen begins with the word "therefore", we should take a look at the previous verses to see what it refers to.

Colossians 2:13-14
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I think the list is written in a biased voice.
Seems to be more editorial than factual in some cases.
It would be better if the positions were stated in their own words.

And there are in fact a whole spectrum of beliefs on this subject.
everyone seems to have their own take.

One of the biggest problems that I try to address is definitions.
You and I had this issue with one of my posts here.

Here are two scriptures that have helped to solidify my definitions. Commentary below.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Both of these scriptures make reference to those who "do not have the law".
Obviously this means that the law was not for everyone, nor does everyone "have" the law. But what law is that?

In the Romans scripture the Gentiles are said to not have the law, yet they do have their consciences to guide them in understanding the requirements of the law. Which sounds like a contradiction. But I would say that this is the moral law that some speak of. What the Apostle calls "God's law" in the first Corinthians verse above.

And in that verse, the Apostle explains his position. Since he is Jewish, he was one that had the law, since he had to "become" like one not having the law. But then says he is not free from "God's law" (which he differentiates from "the law") but is under Christ’s law.

So, in all this, I see three categories of law. (there are other unrelated laws)
1) God's law (the moral law of human conscience)
2) The law (given to the Israelites alone through Moses)
3) Christ's law (found in the gospels)

The other definitions issue is about references to the books of the law.
Most famously this one. Which Jesus explained after his resurrection in the verse below that one. This defines what Jesus meant by "fulfill". (prophetically)

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Yes, I agree, but with more explanation. My additions which may be where we disagreed (I can't remember) would be that the eternal law on our hearts is specifically to "love God with all your heart, soul, and body, and your neighbor as yourself." The Ten Commandments is fashioned after that all-encompassing law, but had to be kept with the carnal nature UNTIL Christ, who replaced our carnal nature with one born again of the all-powerful Holy Spirit. So even though the law engraved on stone was holy, there was always a battle of knowledge over will, and will over knowledge which is depicted in Romans 7 before Christ takes away that sin nature in Romans 8.

Where I find the most disagreement with me by those on the forum and elsewhere, even pastors, is my assertion that Romans 7 is NOT the life of a Christian, because we MUST be born again of the Spirit to be Christ's, thus a Christian, and those walking in the Spirit don't have that struggle - Christ freed us from sin. The context of Romans 7 is about those still under the law - the Jews - trying to keep the law with their fallen nature full of sin - BEFORE CHRIST.
 
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