Abortion: The Real Reason Why States are Passing Laws Against It

RageOfAngels

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Two things folk have said recently that I found interesting...

1
Q. Who was first to celebrate Jesus?
A. A fetus!
"When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."

2
If abortion is fine for any reason, can gender choice be fine? So if you want a girl, but find out it's a boy, can you abort him?
 
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Not David

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Okay...what, in your opinion, should happen to the non-used embryos leftover after a successful IVF procedure?
I wouldn't be against in vitro fertilization if there wasn't destruction of fertilized eggs (zygote).
 
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Pommer

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I wouldn't be against in vitro fertilization if there wasn't destruction of fertilized eggs (zygote).
THANK YOU!

Well, like I said, some are discarded...but most are kept, frozen solid, ready to impregnate any willing woman who is legally entitled to have the procedure done.

Any...qualms with that eventuality?
 
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Pommer

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Yes, I guess dismissing the issue is what I’d try too, if I couldn’t see the connection.

“You must get an abortion if the state tells you to do so” is little different than
“The state insists that you must carry all viable fetuses to term”.

The specific (pregnant) woman is left out of the process!
Rape is outlawed. Banning abortion is not rape. Both the law and the facts support that. But Belk wanted to compare colors to someone who supports rape, which was a smear tactic.

I don't agree with colors assertion that he would prefer a theocracy. However, he never endorsed rape, and the two are not the same.

Let’s try a hypothetical:
“Jane” is 15 and was raped six weeks ago and now finds herself pregnant. Her rapist got hit by a bus and died a week after his crime.

Is it your contention that the State has a vested interest* that “Jane” carry the baby to term?


*how does it “pay” the State to force a 15 year-old to bring a child into the world that she didn’t want?
 
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Fantine

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The main reason states are passing abortion legislation is that Republicans are making a campaign promise to their base.

And their base (evangelicals) are paying a huge price for it.

Our state passed a referendum to increase the minimum wage. The miserable bleeps in the state house introduced bills to make 80% of those currently eligible for minimum wages ineligible--primarily workers in businesses with less than 25 employees. And you would be horrified to learn how many work for minimum wage. More than 1/3.

And the guns. Guns in bars, colleges, churches...these legislators care nothing for safety.

Trying to end expanded Medicare.

Anti-immigrant. Ugh...

So they had to come through with something for their base--it is nowhere near enough.

Hopefully their base, after these laws pass, will throw the bums out for their own survival.
 
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miamited

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How then would you explain that the Alabama Governor, who is a woman, signed it into law?

Hi,

I'm just curious. What does being a conservative have to do with one being male or female? If the person you were responding to is correct that a lot of this is about 'christians' thinking that they can save the world by pushing religious dogma onto the people of the world, well...I'd imagine that at least some of those conservatives are women. Perhaps the Governor of Alabama is such a person.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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tall73

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Let’s try a hypothetical:
“Jane” is 15 and was raped six weeks ago and now finds herself pregnant. Her rapist got hit by a bus and died a week after his crime.

Is it your contention that the State has a vested interest* that “Jane” carry the baby to term?

That was not the conversation at all. This was not discussing the Alabama bill or anything else. It was discussing Belk implying colors was in favor of rape. I thought that was an unfounded statement.

*how does it “pay” the State to force a 15 year-old to bring a child into the world that she didn’t want?

This was not the context of Belk's smear of colors as supporting rape. So it will not clarify my objection to Belk's statement which started this whole chain. Belk implied that since colors wanted to ban abortion because women might think twice about having a child when not ready if they could not abort that he was controlling women. Then he said if men who wanted to control women only cared as much about women raped. It was an unfair statement. Colors had said nothing about rape, and there is no evidence he doesn't care about rape of women.

Now to answer your question, I would hope the girl would not abort the baby. But if it were up to me I would not require it by law in that case, as the girl had no choice in the matter.
 
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Pommer

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That was not the conversation at all. This was not discussing the Alabama bill or anything else. It was discussing Belk implying colors was in favor of rape. I thought that was an unfounded statement.



This was not the context of Belk's smear of colors as supporting rape. So it will not clarify my objection to Belk's statement which started this whole chain. Belk implied that since colors wanted to ban abortion because women might think twice about having a child when not ready if they could not abort that he was controlling women. Then he said if men who wanted to control women only cared as much about women raped. It was an unfair statement. Colors had said nothing about rape, and there is no evidence he doesn't care about rape of women.

Now to answer your question, I would hope the girl would not abort the baby. But if it were up to me I would not require it by law in that case, as the girl had no choice in the matter.
I do admire your doggedness, it makes me better at saying precisely, concisely, exactly what I mean to convey, (with the occasional poetic flair or wry humor).
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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Hi,

I'm just curious. What does being a conservative have to do with one being male or female? If the person you were responding to is correct that a lot of this is about 'christians' thinking that they can save the world by pushing religious dogma onto the people of the world, well...I'd imagine that at least some of those conservatives are women. Perhaps the Governor of Alabama is such a person.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Her gender has nothing to do with her political party. However, some here are suggesting that the abortion laws are not about protecting the unborn and everything to do with controlling women's bodies. If that were so, it wouldn't make sense that a female governor would sign off in the bill.
 
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Pommer

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Her gender has nothing to do with her political party. However, some here are suggesting that the abortion laws are not about protecting the unborn and everything to do with controlling women's bodies. If that were so, it wouldn't make sense that a female governor would sign off in the bill.
Unless it is the Governor’s view that the state’s interest in an unborn child trumps (ahem) the woman’s interest in her own body!
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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Unless it is the Governor’s view that the state’s interest in an unborn child trumps (ahem) the woman’s interest in her own body!
Or perhaps it could be because she is trying to protect the lives of the unborn?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I got this commentary in my e-mail today:

Is Common Ground on Abortion Possible?

It is written by the liberal Evangelical Pastor Jim Wallis. He makes the call for liberals and conservatives to come together to end the reasons why women have abortions instead of just passing laws against it.

Makes sense....entirely reasonable....

And never going to happen. You can't rally people around complex solutions. People are simple minded. They don't stay focused on multiple objectives....it's against human nature.

People stay focused on simple answers and solutions. It's why the issue is described in terms of pro-choice and pro-life.


He details many of the things in American life which cause women to seek abortions. He says fixing those reasons would result in a large drop in abortions.

I agree with him and have for years tried to get people to understand that making laws won't protect any fetus. Ending the stigma of being a single woman with a child (the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] syndrome),

Not sure how one would do that.

paying women a family wage,

I'm not sure what you mean here....hopefully not just paying people more for being a woman or having children.

working towards making child care available for the working mother, health care that is affordable and...the one I noticed wasn't on Pastor Wallis' list.....

Just gotta fix healthcare? At least this will be easy...

getting American men to view a single mother as a valuable candidate for a mate BECAUSE she chose not to abort.

After the other things you listed, this one is actually easy.

But, after reading the commentary, the thought came to me...What if all this has nothing at all to do with abortion. What if conservatives really don't give a rat's behind about giving women a reason not to abort? What if the REAL reason they are trying to legally end abortions is really about simply getting their religious dogma engraved in American law?

I doubt that's it. If it were....they'd be in favor of more illegal immigration. After all, the central Americans swarming across the border are like 95% Catholics and against abortion.


If that is right, is there any reason to think that will be end of their desire get their religious dogma engraved in American law? Are we headed for a Christian version of the Taliban?

Probably not....it's against the Constitution to favor one religion over another.
 
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miamited

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Hi pommer,

Thanks for your response. You responded:
However, some here are suggesting that the abortion laws are not about protecting the unborn and everything to do with controlling women's bodies.

I went back and reread your reply that I was responding to and reread the post that you had quoted to make your point. Which I will repost here:
But, after reading the commentary, the thought came to me...What if all this has nothing at all to do with abortion. What if conservatives really don't give a rat's behind about giving women a reason not to abort? What if the REAL reason they are trying to legally end abortions is really about simply getting their religious dogma engraved in American law?

If that is right, is there any reason to think that will be end of their desire get their religious dogma engraved in American law? Are we headed for a Christian version of the Taliban?

I also went back and read zephcom's complete post, of which you only quoted a small portion of. Nowhere did I find that zephcom was making the argument that you claim your statement was addressing.

It would seem that zephcom, who is not a believer in the one true and living God, is just arguing that creating laws to make abortions illegal is nothing more than some who have religious beliefs concerning the subject, making their religious beliefs, law. In that regard, it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being male or female in attempting to create laws.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Pommer

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Hi pommer,

Thanks for your response. You responded:


I went back and reread your reply that I was responding to and reread the post that you had quoted to make your point. Which I will repost here:


I also went back and read zephcom's complete post, of which you only quoted a small portion of. Nowhere did I find that zephcom was making the argument that you claim your statement was addressing.

It would seem that zephcom, who is not a believer in the one true and living God, is just arguing that creating laws to make abortions illegal is nothing more than some who have religious beliefs concerning the subject, making their religious beliefs, law. In that regard, it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone being male or female in attempting to create laws.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Ummm...okay?
 
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Not David

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THANK YOU!

Well, like I said, some are discarded...but most are kept, frozen solid, ready to impregnate any willing woman who is legally entitled to have the procedure done.

Any...qualms with that eventuality?
Did I already mention the destruction of them as a problem? This thread has been going for centuries.
 
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miamited

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Hi all,

Just mulling over some information here and wondering if the state government of Alabama really cares about the life of the child in its goal of criminalizing abortions.

I found, from a report on a study by the Guttmacher Institute, and I freely accept that some will write this report off as just more pro-abortion propaganda, that in 2014 three fourths of abortion patients were considered low income based on the federal poverty level guidelines. Characteristics of U.S. Abortion Patients in 2014 and Changes Since 2008

Then I found this report in Newsweek that claimed that Alabama was refusing to fund mother and child healthcare. Alabama legislators refuse to fund mother and child health care as they ban nearly all abortions

For me, this brings up the question of what all these poverty level and below mothers are supposed to do if they decide not to come up with the $500-800 for an abortion procedure, but choose, or are forced, to accept the thousands of dollars it's going to take to raise a healthy and well cared for child.

I mean yes, ultimately we would desire that young people (60% of abortion patients are in their 20's. The report doesn't provide numbers for adolescents) don't have sexual relations outside of marriage or that at the very least they use control methods. However, with our culture selling sex in so much of its television and movie programming, that's not likely to ever happen. A young couple gets sexually excited and in the heat of the moment nobody even thinks about using protection. Then you have young men who eschew the use of condoms and expect the female partner to take care of the issue since they're the ones who are going to wind up pregnant. I just imagine that in our culture it's going to be a really hard sell to reduce the unwanted pregnancy rate among young people and surely impossible to get it to zero.

So, what are our choices if we can't stop two people from having unprotected sexual relations who wouldn't want a child if that eventuality comes about from their relationship?

1. Adoption. Surely there is a need for adoptable babies right now. However, do we have the capacity to absorb 700,000 babies every year? If adoption were to become the norm, I would think it likely that the number may even be greater. My thinking is that a lot of women don't get abortions because of the stigma attached to the process, but adoption might mean that more women decide to put their child up for adoption that wouldn't have had an abortion. Nevertheless, can our adoption needs absorb 700,000 babies each year?

2. The pregnant mother keeping the child. This, as we have found, especially with the low income recipients, means another child who grows up in need and with often poor parental supervision and often no father figure. A study conducted by Missouri State regarding gang association finds that gang members often come from single parent homes: Into the Abyss: Parents of Gang Members
With some 700,000 unwanted babies now being born each year that may not be adopted, what are the chances that we're going to grow more gangs? Even if some of these now born children don't join gangs, they may well adopt criminal behaviors as they grow up from lack of parental care and supervision.

Bottom line, it's not an easy answer and the only way to find out is to bring about that condition. Let's put 700,000 more babies out there that are unwanted by the parent to either be forced on the parents or offered to adoptive parents and see what happens.

Please don't label me pro-life or pro-choice. I'm just thinking pragmatically here. As I've said in an earlier post, I don't think that trying to get the world to live as God has asked His children to live, has ever been a workable solution. Israel wasn't able to keep up with God's commandments and by the time Jesus arrived he was railing against their leadership for setting aside the commandments of God for the ways of man. So, I'm not expecting any nation or group of people who are not all sold in for God, to establish the laws of God as a workable set of laws in the world today.

I agree that as a believer if we are asked, or if the choice should come up in our life, that we would choose against aborting a child. However, that's only because of the qualifier that one is a believer. Believers are asked to live differently than the world and this is one of those life situations where we are going to make different choices than the unbeliever because we hold to a different set of values. A believer shouldn't even find himself/herself in such a situation in the first place if they also believe that God asks them to be sexually pure.

What I also know is that abortion is not the 'unforgivable sin'. If a young woman has an abortion or a young man encourages a woman to have an abortion, and she does, Jesus' sacrifice for sin is also sufficient for that sin. So for me, whether or not one would personally choose to have an abortion depends on their relationship with God. That single act is not enough to save them if they don't have it done, nor remove them from God's offer of forgiveness if they do.

However, as I started this thread, I believe that the State of Alabama, if they are going to take away the choice of so many low income women from aborting their children, they should be prepared to offer greater financial assistance to those women to try and give the child a fighting chance in this lost and dying world.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Pommer

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What I also know is that abortion is not the 'unforgivable sin'. If a young woman has an abortion or a young man encourages a woman to have an abortion, and she does, Jesus' sacrifice for sin is also sufficient for that sin. So for me, whether or not one would personally choose to have an abortion depends on their relationship with God. That single act is not enough to save them if they don't have it done, nor remove them from God's offer of forgiveness if they do.
^^^This is the wisest thing I have seen a Christian opine in many a year and deserves to be a thread of its own elsewhere on this site...even though it would likely be in a verboten to the lost section of CF.
 
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Belk

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Jimminy Christmas, if Christians formed PACs or protested gave money and time for every cause non-believers thought they should in order to prove their Christianity none of them would have jobs or be able to provide for their families. Then they would be attacked for not taking care of their kids.

I agree. It is not a priority for you. That was my entire point.
 
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Belk

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Rape is outlawed. Banning abortion is not rape. Both the law and the facts support that. But Belk wanted to compare colors to someone who supports rape, which was a smear tactic.

I don't agree with colors assertion that he would prefer a theocracy. However, he never endorsed rape, and the two are not the same.

It is readily apparent you missed the thrust of my post.
 
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