Discussion Theological theory Vs Faith

mark kennedy · May 22, 2019

Alithis said:
One of the most frustrating things in Christiandom is the unending circular nature of theological theory...
It is nothing more then fancy unbelief...

We either believe who Jesus is
And what he has said
And so Behave accordingly...
Or we do not.
So many are filled with theological theories. But they do Not Do as Jesus said to Do...

Systematic theology is like a systematic philosophy, it's an acquired taste for a specific set of needs. It's not really opposed to faith but it's a poor substitute. Certainly a lot of theology in the modern world has a profoundly secular, even naturalistic influence. The influence of modernist philosophies in the form of liberal theology has undermined basic Christian theism dramatically.

That said, Christian living has never been an emotionally driven self expression, whether or not your well read theologically is largely irrelevant. Christian living is based on the power and influence of the Holy Spirit and faith in the risen Savior.

Alithis · May 22, 2019

mark kennedy said:
Systematic theology is like a systematic philosophy, it's an acquired taste for a specific set of needs. It's not really opposed to faith but it's a poor substitute. Certainly a lot of theology in the modern world has a profoundly secular, even naturalistic influence. The influence of modernist philosophies in the form of liberal theology has undermined basic Christian theism dramatically.

That said, Christian living has never been an emotionally driven self expression, whether or not your well read theologically is largely irrelevant. Christian living is based on the power and influence of the Holy Spirit and faith in the risen Savior.

Or that is to say... If you believe what Jesus said...you begin to do it what Jesus said.

And if you don't ... Well that stands as evidence that the person does not truely believe...

None of this is posted to condemn.. I was such a person for so very many years.but if we repent of unbelief
And prove we believe by our obedience ,the Lord rushes to forgive and Aid us .
That is certain .

mark kennedy · May 22, 2019

Alithis said:
Or that is to say... If you believe what Jesus said...you begin to do it what Jesus said.

And if you don't ... Well that stands as evidence that the person does not truely believe...

Well, of course it does? Things like turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give asking nothing in return and forgive even as you are forgiven aren't just pithy sayings, these are vital expressions of the new birth. Christians should embrace these things not just dutifully but joyfully and it's been my experience that they generally do. Perhaps quietly, but inevitably and as a normal part of their daily living.

None of this is posted to condemn.. I was such a person for so very many years.but if we repent of unbelief

Never really thought you were being judgmental, I believe everything in Christian life is based on child like saving faith to.

And prove we believe by our obedience ,the Lord rushes to forgive and Aid us .
That is certain .

Faith is an act of obedience, as the Father said at the baptism of Jesus, 'This is my Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him'. That is not a request, it's as much a commandment as any Law in the Old Testament. Saving faith bears fruit, that's as basic as the gospel gets.

My point was that systematic theology has it's merits, many a believer has found that kind of study invaluable to teaching and learning Biblical Christianity on a broad scale. For years I would have nothing to do with systematic study but over the last couple of years have taken up a serious study of it. It's really nothing more then a system which can come in pretty handy if your given to a lot of reading and careful study.

Grace and peace,
Mark

K2K · May 22, 2019

Akita Suggagaki said:
Yes, but especially:In John 13:34 Jesus taught, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

I'm not sure the quote from me was understood. The foremost command, according to Jesus, is "Hear, O Israel,"

The result of hearing with the Lord our God with our spiritual ears, is that you will then Love the Lord your God who you are then taking time to listen to. And second that happens is that you will start loving you neighbor as yourself, simply because you are listening to Him and He loves your neighbor as He loves you.

Now this brings us to the verse above with the command, 'Love one another, As I have loved you, so you must love one another'

Ok, how did Jesus love us? We must ask that question if we are going to love other "as He loved us!

Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him. So He was loving us as He heard the Father tell Him!!

You gotta get this. Jesus didn't go around loving others as He though He should, He went around listening to the Father and doing what the Father told Him, and in that way He loved us!!

Thus is we don't keep the foremost command to "Hear" then we are NOT LOVING OTHERS AS HE LOVED US!

That is why "Hear, O Israel" is the foremost command. It is the command they were supposed to put on the door post!

Deut 6:4-9 "Hear, O Israel" The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and will your soul and with all your might. These words which I am commanding you today shall be on your heart.... You shall write them on the door posts of your house and on your gates.

Again, if we look close, the one real command to all the above is "Hear, O Israel", the rest are conclusion like in "you shall", or you will love the Lord if you hear Him, and you will write them on the door posts of you house, at least spiritually speaking, because it is the hearing Him that takes you into that spiritual house where you find the Lord your God.

Now if our Theology, or understanding of God, is something other than that of Jesus's Theology, and He didn't consider knowing the depths of God to be obtainable, then we are not going to seek the Lord our God and listen to His words to us, simply because we are still thinking we know better than God. We are not going to make it about hearing God, but about us knowing what to do. Then we are not going to love God, and indeed are not loving God with all our soul and might. And then how are we going to love our neighbor like ourselves? We are not, no matter what you think, because you are always going to see a situation from only your point of view, because you are not listening to God to get His point of view.

So I see Christians say, "Love your neighbor as your self" but they fail to realize they are in no position to do that, only God is in a position to love both you and then in the same way. So you must listen to Him in order to love your neighbor as yourself.

Alithis · May 22, 2019

K2K said:
He should, He went around listening to the Father and doing what the Father told Him, and in that way He loved us

Yes... He loved the Father(and the Father loved the son) and so against all carnal minded reason and emotion he obeyed the father. And in doing so he loved us and DID the best possible course of Action for us.

And this is the point of the thread.
That all the theology in Christiandom means absolutley nothing if we do not ,by the action of faith , DO his will and so display we also love him .

Brotherly Spirit · May 22, 2019

Not sure if it's been posted but the Parable of the talents comes to mind. Matthew 25:15 states the men were given talents according to his ability. But also further in the chapter when the Man returns each servant until the last had fully returned the talents plus more accordingly. The last servant, Matthew 24:24-25 who had only one talent didn't even bother. He wasn't given five or two like the others, but one, those men just returned their own talents plus what was gained. The difference wasn't returning talents they didn't have, but unlike the one who hid it they invested what they had in Matthew 25:16-17. The Man's response to the one is he should been wiser with his talent, though he wasn't given much in Matthew 25:26-27; his point is to do everything you can with what you have, no more or less than what's given (the five talents invested earned five talents and the two talents earned two talents).

Jermayn · May 24, 2019

Alithis said:
I speak of those who spout all the theological theories..but do not Go out and heal the sick ,preach the Gospel, drive out devils ..baptise in Jesus name and teach others to observe all Jesus commanded..

They can give every theology imaginable about it.. But they dont do anything...

I use to have this same line of thinking about myself. I always wondered why I wasn't out healing people or casting out demons. One day while pondering about faith in general, Jesus showed me something very important. It's tough to explain so I'll just give an example of the thought process God took me through first:

There's a strip club down the road, why not go? It would be great fun, right?

Well, yeah, but that would be very unpleasing to God; directly against his word.

Alright, now about that cashier that was rude to you yesterday, why not let him have it (curse him out) or at least complain to his manager?

Well, Jesus said treat others the way you want to be treated. Maybe the guy was having a bad day. I wouldn't want to be cursed out or fired from my job because I may be having a rough day.

Okay, let's go grab a twelve pack of beer and get sloshed tonight. It's the weekend and time to unwind. You've earned it!

Yeah, I don't think drinking a beer or two or having glass of wine is a sin, but I feel convicted about drinking to much. I don't think God would approve of me getting wasted or anywhere near that point.

So, you're going to miss out on all this fun stuff for a God you've never seen with your own eyes? Why?

Because I have faith in his word.

That was the point he opened my eyes and I realized that living a holy lifestyle was the greatest show of faith and the greatest testimony I could accomplish. As far as the gifts of the spirit are concerned, I think there's been more than enough scripture given in this thread to support that we don't all have the same gifts. Just because someone hasn't been blessed with one in particular doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. I say this will all the love in the world because I don't want any animosity between myself or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ, but you're coming off as a little judgmental and high-minded because you have a gift that others may not have. I don't think this is how you meant your post to be, but that's the way people may be taking it.

Alithis · May 24, 2019

Jermayn said:
I use to have this same line of thinking about myself. I always wondered why I wasn't out healing people or casting out demons. One day while pondering about faith in general, Jesus showed me something very important. It's tough to explain so I'll just give an example of the thought process God took me through first:

There's a strip club down the road, why not go? It would be great fun, right?

Well, yeah, but that would be very unpleasing to God; directly against his word.

Alright, now about that cashier that was rude to you yesterday, why not let him have it (curse him out) or at least complain to his manager?

Well, Jesus said treat others the way you want to be treated. Maybe the guy was having a bad day. I wouldn't want to be cursed out or fired from my job because I may be having a rough day.

Okay, let's go grab a twelve pack of beer and get sloshed tonight. It's the weekend and time to unwind. You've earned it!

Yeah, I don't think drinking a beer or two or having glass of wine is a sin, but I feel convicted about drinking to much. I don't think God would approve of me getting wasted or anywhere near that point.

So, you're going to miss out on all this fun stuff for a God you've never seen with your own eyes? Why?

Because I have faith in his word.

That was the point he opened my eyes and I realized that living a holy lifestyle was the greatest show of faith and the greatest testimony I could accomplish. As far as the gifts of the spirit are concerned, I think there's been more than enough scripture given in this thread to support that we don't all have the same gifts. Just because someone hasn't been blessed with one in particular doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. I say this will all the love in the world because I don't want any animosity between myself or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ, but you're coming off as a little judgmental and high-minded because you have a gift that others may not have. I don't think this is how you meant your post to be, but that's the way people may be taking it.

To be holy ..is. " to be seperated unto God for HIS purpose... For his will ." not ours
The entire point us that Jesus told his disciples the great commision
He saves us he sanctifies us and he makes us holy
.. Seperated from the world and Sin unto HIS purposes ..

If a person thinks they can just stay away from some bad sin and then just do thier own thing then they need to repent from straying and following thier OWN way.
It's the very thing the disciples are called to repent from..
(And straight away they left thier nets and followed him ( JESUS) )
"For all have strayed they have Turned every one to thier own ways"
Such thinking is a state of self righteousness ..of being righteous in ones eyes.
Its being holyunto ones self. Seperated from the world unto ones Own purposes.
Such a state is not the Holiness wrought by God.
It does not take up cross it does not die to self.
Every single person can obey Jesus once they start at the beginning and obey God in repentance from thier own way

Alithis · May 24, 2019

Jermayn said:
Because I have faith in his word.

Not if one does not DO his word...
For Faith is the obedient action one takes because one believes

Strong in Him · May 25, 2019

Alithis said:
Not if one does not DO his word...
For Faith is the obedient action one takes because one believes

Yes.
But the problem is you seem to be saying that unless a Christian heals the sick, drives out demons and performs miraculous signs they are not DOING the word, and therefore anything they say is just all theory.
This is not the case.
Helping the homeless, visiting the sick, supporting the poor, standing up for the weak and disadvantaged is doing what God does; putting faith into action, being salt and light and doing the word. A Christian counsellor who helps someone come to terms with/overcome their past or work their way through trauma, is helping to heal the sick. As is someone in a laboratory who, through their research,develops new drugs or treatments for little known diseases that don't get much publicity.
It may not be as attractive as going onto the streets, praying for passers by and seeing folk getting out of their wheelchairs; it may not cause many gasps of amazement, or get the Christian kudos or a reputation - but it is still very much God's work.

Jermayn · May 25, 2019

Alithis said:
To be holy ..is. " to be seperated unto God for HIS purpose... For his will ." not ours
The entire point us that Jesus told his disciples the great commision
He saves us he sanctifies us and he makes us holy
.. Seperated from the world and Sin unto HIS purposes ..

If a person thinks they can just stay away from some bad sin and then just do thier own thing then they need to repent from straying and following thier OWN way.
It's the very thing the disciples are called to repent from..
(And straight away they left thier nets and followed him ( JESUS) )
"For all have strayed they have Turned every one to thier own ways"
Such thinking is a state of self righteousness ..of being righteous in ones eyes.
Its being holyunto ones self. Seperated from the world unto ones Own purposes.
Such a state is not the Holiness wrought by God.
It does not take up cross it does not die to self.
Every single person can obey Jesus once they start at the beginning and obey God in repentance from thier own way

I think I get what you're trying to get across, however I'm a bit confused by "If a person thinks they can just stay away from some bad sin and then just do thier own thing then they need to repent from straying and following thier OWN way". Are you saying someone should repent for NOT sinning? I certainly don't avoid sin because I'm following my own way and I'd be willing to bet most other Christians don't either. If I followed my own way, I'd be sinning constantly. Only the tremendous mercy of the Holy Spirit helps me resist sinning. Trust me, I've tried doing it on my own. You may win a few battles at first, but you'll always end up losing until you learn to get close to God and rely on the Holy Spirit. With that being said, I'm sure there are people out there that pretend to be Christians and follow God's commandments just so other people will praise them. In that case, you're right, they need to repent and are following their own way, however I think you're undervaluing the amount of faith it takes to get the "beams out of your own eye" (Matthew 7:5).

As far as the great commission, I'd refer you right back to Matthew 7:4-5. You gotta have the basics down yourself before your going to make disciples. If you're our healing the sick and casting out devils, but your not living a holy lifestyle yourself, you're just going to lead people astray.

Jermayn · May 25, 2019

Alithis said:
Not if one does not DO his word...
For Faith is the obedient action one takes because one believes

I would refer you to James 2 regarding faith and action. They are not the same. Faith is dead without action (good deeds) but this doesn't make them the same thing. You only quoted one small part of my post here. Again, the ACTION I, as well as all true Christians, take when we resist sinning is coupled with our FAITH in God's commands. I hope you see what I'm trying to get at here. Making the decision to obey God and not commit a sin is an ACTION. If you didn't have FAITH in God, why in the world would you put forth any effort to resist?

~Zao~ · May 25, 2019

[QUOTE="Jermayn, post: 73979063, member: 419747”]... undervaluing the amount of faith it takes to get the "beams out of your own eye" (Matthew 7:5).
As far as the great commission, I'd refer you right back to Matthew 7:4-5. You gotta have the basics down yourself before your going to make disciples. If you're our healing the sick and casting out devils, but your not living a holy lifestyle yourself, you're just going to lead people astray.[/QUOTE]

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

“Taking the beam out of our own eyes” is the work aspect of faith. I agree that's the fact of discipleship. Hypocrisy in the Greek is the word used for an actor in a play. Genuine-authenticity-truth-reality being the glue that unites to Christ. God does equipt the called using the gifts that He has bestowed on them but first those gifts must be sanctified to Him. Even natural talents are only products of good/evil. Not until they have been brought under the control of the Spirit, thru much effort, can they be life-giving to others.

~Zao~ · May 25, 2019

I’m wondering how much healing and casting out demons is actually done thru the Word of God. On hearing they believed and on believing they received.

Alithis · May 25, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Yes.
But the problem is you seem to be saying that unless a Christian heals the sick, drives out demons and performs miraculous signs they are not DOING the word, and therefore anything they say is just all theory.
This is not the case.
Helping the homeless, visiting the sick, supporting the poor, standing up for the weak and disadvantaged is doing what God does; putting faith into action, being salt and light and doing the word. A Christian counsellor who helps someone come to terms with/overcome their past or work their way through trauma, is helping to heal the sick. As is someone in a laboratory who, through their research,develops new drugs or treatments for little known diseases that don't get much publicity.
It may not be as attractive as going onto the streets, praying for passers by and seeing folk getting out of their wheelchairs; it may not cause many gasps of amazement, or get the Christian kudos or a reputation - but it is still very much God's work.

Forms of Godliness that deny the power..
You see many good organisations do that
It does not require FAITH in God to do the natural...
And if its about seeking reputation then who cares.. Obeying the lord JESUS often results in loss of worldly minded reputation not gain of it.

Alithis · May 25, 2019

Jermayn said:
I would refer you to James 2 regarding faith and action. They are not the same. Faith is dead without action (good deeds) but this doesn't make them the same thing. You only quoted one small part of my post here. Again, the ACTION I, as well as all true Christians, take when we resist sinning is coupled with our FAITH in God's commands. I hope you see what I'm trying to get at here. Making the decision to obey God and not commit a sin is an ACTION. If you didn't have FAITH in God, why in the world would you put forth any effort to resist?

if a person lives life with all of thier attention on not sinning then I'd gauge such a person is not yet dead to sin .. Rather fully alive to it and still desiring it.
Such an individual Needs to be born again.
The new creation in Christ , by the holy Spirit hascthier mind being renewed and is turned toward God and his Will.To be doing it.
The thinking your presenting here is actually encouraging sin ... To hear the word and not Do it is to be self decieved ...Jesus said so.
The Holy Spirit in a person is not corruptable and we ARE to live according to the law of the spurit of life in Christ JESUS.
Which is the law of love.
It does not spend all its time focussing on not doing evil deeds.
It just goes and does what jesus said to do.
Go, heal the sick, proclaim the good news, drive out devils ......cleanse the leper,raise the dead, Baptise people in Jesus name and make more disciples teaching tgem to observe all i ( JESUS) have commanded you...

In the end ..you obey him or ..you dont.
Everything in beyween is compromise and self excusing
Disobedience is also sin.
Fear ..is founded fully in Unbelief.

The point of this thread is that every theological theory is Only theory if a person does not put it into practice.

Dont go patting oneself on the back saying im a good disciple i didnt get drunk and go to a strip club..
When you havnt done even that which is ypur duty to do...

Strong in Him · May 25, 2019

Alithis said:
It does not require FAITH in God to do the natural...

Christians serve God using the gifts he has given them - in faith, and in the power of the Holy Spirit.
There are Christian counsellors and Christian counselling organisations; I'm sure they're depending on God for wisdom, strength and the power of his Spirit.

Alithis said:
And if its about seeking reputation then who cares.. Obeying the lord JESUS often results in loss of worldly minded reputation not gain of it.

You misunderstand me.
I'm talking about the reputation that some Christians may inevitably get if they do miraculous healing. They almost certainly don't seek it, or do it for that reason, but there's bound to be a certain amount of "have you been to X? They've got a great healing ministry. " Or have you seen Y? They're really showing faith and operating in the gifts."
Many seek after signs and wonders, just as in Jesus' day.
It's great seeing how the Lord is working - but he does other great things too. Some people may never see a sign or wonder but come to faith because someone has shown them love, concern and practical care.

Alithis · May 25, 2019

Jermayn said:
As far as the great commission, I'd refer you right back to Matthew 7:4-5. You gotta have the basics down yourself before your going to make disciples. If you're our healing the sick and casting out devils, but your not living a holy lifestyle yourself, you're just going to lead people astray.

It is an absolute that one must be living a holy life.. But since a person who loves the lord also obeys the lord as evidence they love him
(This is how we know we love him , we keep his commands...John)
(If you love me you will keep my words- Jesus) living in obedience to him results in a holy life.
Sure there are splash in the pan people who go out doing great commission things ..but if they are not living holy ( playing around with sin) they do not endure .
To make disciples you certainly need more then just the basics.
To Get the basics you must GO and DO... Thats how we learn the basics and not just theories alone.

So many proclaiming to be believers Have the theories.
But they don't practice them
They do not often know how.
They are unequipped in the skill of practicing the the power of the Gospel..
But they CAN...
When a person has the Holy Spirit.
IF a person has the Holy Spirit they have already been annointed to the task of Doing Gods will.
Only thier will and unbelieving lies the advesary throws (often by way of the churches) hinders them .
If you believe, all things are possible
-every word Jesus ever spoke is absolute truth.
Absolute!

Alithis · May 25, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Christians serve God using the gifts he has given them - in faith, and in the power of the Holy Spirit.
There are Christian counsellors and Christian counselling organisations; I'm sure they're depending on God for wisdom, strength and the power of his Spirit.

You misunderstand me.
I'm talking about the reputation that some Christians may inevitably get if they do miraculous healing. They almost certainly don't seek it, or do it for that reason, but there's bound to be a certain amount of "have you been to X? They've got a great healing ministry. " Or have you seen Y? They're really showing faith and operating in the gifts."
Many seek after signs and wonders, just as in Jesus' day.
It's great seeing how the Lord is working - but he does other great things too. Some people may never see a sign or wonder but come to faith because someone has shown them love, concern and practical care.

Christian councilling organisation are mostly just businesses..
And none of this has anything to do with sunday organiations.
And a sick person suffering is not seeking a sign ...

Strong in Him · May 25, 2019

Alithis said:
Christian councilling organisation are mostly just businesses..

Even if some of them are - and I don't know - does that matter?
They are still Christians, doing the work they believe God has called them to and using the gifts they have been given.

Alithis said:
And none of this has anything to do with sunday organiations.

What are "Sunday organisations" and what do they have to do with it?

Alithis said:
And a sick person suffering is not seeking a sign ...

They are almost certainly seeking healing.

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