Eve came from Adam, evolution does not allow this

JacksBratt · May 25, 2019

myst33 said:
So, when you read in the Bible "Bring me my cloak I left in Troas", it was God speaking?

Sorry, I cannot find that anywhere in the scriptures, from my searches. Can you please give me the chapter and verse?

trophy33 · May 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Sorry, I cannot find that anywhere in the scriptures, from my searches. Can you please give me the chapter and verse?

2 Tm 4:13

JacksBratt · May 25, 2019

ExTiff said:
Just the kind of perverse logic one might expect from a person who believes 6 impossible things before his breakfast.

So, you don't believe that these are actual events?

ExTiff said:
My salvation does not depend upon me believing your interpretation of every verse of God inspired scripture.

You can make of it what you like, that is your affair, but don't start telling me what I must believe in order to be saved. Look to your own salvation and how you regard TRUTH.
.

Your salvation does depend on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just like all humans...

Do you believe that He was born of a virgin, lived the life as described in the gospels... fulfilled all the prophesies from the OT, died, was buried and rose again?

All these things are supernatural.. How can you be saved if you don't believe them?

You cannot...

Salvation does not depend on the creation story... Your salvation and the gospel that explains it, is from the same book that you deny for how it was created.

Where do you draw the line as to what is reality... and what is just a story?

JacksBratt · May 25, 2019

myst33 said:
So, when you read in the Bible "Bring me my cloak I left in Troas", it was God speaking?

Your view of the Bible is wrong, God did not need any cloak. Authors are humans. God revealed the path of salvation through them, but the Bible is not dictated.

The mention of his cloak and the books or parchments, would have significance in their being written in the text. I am not a theologian, but, if you talk to people who unravel the bible through all the layers.... you will find that there is a reason for the scriptures to include this information.

The bible is not always God talking... it is His words and He wants them to be written. Whether it is describing something, some event or giving instruction:

2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

JacksBratt · May 25, 2019

DamianWarS said:
I get the math works out but that's a lot of assumptions.

And, evolution is not??????

DamianWarS said:
Abraham also didn't write Genesis, how many people did it take for it to get to Moses?

Just one.... I think I already posted that God spoke directly to Moses and even wrote much of it with His finger in stone.
The point I was making is that it is not something passed down generation to generation over thousands of years... deeming it untrustworthy.. It was very important and recorded... Not only that but the eye witness to much of it were not that many people back in the times.

DamianWarS said:
I almost get it as it's a single line, however, after Abraham, Isacc and Jacob that single lines split into every single Hebrew where every household has their own unique line traced back to Jacob. Since there were not a organized nation we should be expected wide variations and when your stronger, smarter and all round better neighbours have the same account you may tend to pick up some of their versions.

Take it as you will.

Calminian · May 25, 2019

The Barbarian said:
...Prevailing evidence. Would you like to learn how we know?

sure.

The Barbarian said:
Nope. Your new revision of scripture contradicts it, but no one cares; common descent is consistent with God's actual Word.

Not that I've seen, but please share that biblical argument.

The Barbarian said:
God only tells us that the world brought forth living things, but does not tell us how that happened.....

Genesis includes days and night morning and evenings, defining the days, then describes the creation of the universe within these days. It then puts universe merisms before and after the six days just to seal the point.

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Gen. 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”….
Gen. 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament….
Gen. 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens…let the dry land appear”….
Gen. 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass….”
Gen. 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament….
Gen. 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures,….let birds fly above….
Gen. 1:24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature….
Gen. 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image….
Gen. 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good….

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.

This would seem to be a strong indication the universe was a miraculous creation (a poof if you will). And Moses, seems to have embraced this idea saying,

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

Also Jesus indicated he believed this interpretation proclaiming that Adam and Eve weren't just created at some later time, but go back to the beginning of the creation.

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God “made them male and female.’

That's at least a starting point for an intelligent conversation. I'd like to hear your response to these verses.

Calminian · May 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Wow.... just wow..... "fake intellectual"..... "morons".... "retards"........

Which seems to indicate a strong emotional element to one's opinions, which often gets in the way of logic.

DamianWarS · May 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
And, evolution is not??????

I'm not an evolutionist, I'm agnostic to what happened.

JacksBratt said:
Just one.... I think I already posted that God spoke directly to Moses and even wrote much of it with His finger in stone.
The point I was making is that it is not something passed down generation to generation over thousands of years... deeming it untrustworthy.. It was very important and recorded... Not only that but the eye witness to much of it were not that many people back in the times.

God spoke directly to Moses but the Hebrews would already had many accounts that have been passed down by their grandparents as to what happened. One way to unite people is to adopt and readapted what they already do or how they already think. It's called contextualization.

Calminian · May 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
As I explained... Adam knew Methuselah....who knew Shem.. who knew Abraham. That's three conversations away from the event. Not to mention it is written in the Word of God.......

Indeed. Add to that superior physiology and intelligence and the preservation of human history is really no mystery. My theory is, the antediluvians and early post-diluvians were writing things down from the beginning on clay tablets, and later parchments. Moses would have had plenty of resources.

Curious what you think about this theory:
The Origins of Genesis: Solving the Toledoth Mystery

Calminian · May 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Not only that, but much of the bible was written by God's own finger, in stone. Not just the 10 commandments

I do agree with this, but doubt most biblical narrative came about this way. Henry Morris said this,

“Visions and revelations of the Lord” normally have to do with prophetic revelations of the future (as in Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, etc.). The direct dictation method of inspiration was used mainly for promulgation of specific laws and ordinances (as in the Ten Commandments, the Book of Leviticus, etc.). The Book of Genesis, however, is entirely in the form of narrative records of historical events. Biblical parallels to Genesis are found in such books as Kings, Chronicles, Acts, and so forth. In all of these, the writer either collected previous documents and edited them (e.g., I and II Kings, I and II Chronicles), or else recorded the events which he had either seen himself or had ascertained from others who were witnesses (e.g., Luke, Acts).4

A big clue also is that Genesis cites books and perhaps even authors as the narrative unfolds, such as the book of the accounts of Adam (Gen. 1:5). I believe Moses kept these in his Genesis account for a reason.

Calminian · May 25, 2019

The Barbarian said:
Only a YE creationist could find an expression of faith in God the Creator, to be objectionable.

Well generally because we trust the record of creation. Thus when something is espoused completely difference from the straightforward record, we object. That's the whole point God's word, to share the truth, that we might root out error.

But, wait a minutes, don't you find the expression of YECism objectionable? Aren't you doing the same thing?

ExTiff · May 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
So, you don't believe that these are actual events?
Your salvation does depend on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just like all humans...
Do you believe that He was born of a virgin, lived the life as described in the gospels... fulfilled all the prophesies from the OT, died, was buried and rose again?
All these things are supernatural.. How can you be saved if you don't believe them?

You cannot...

Salvation does not depend on the creation story... Your salvation and the gospel that explains it, is from the same book that you deny for how it was created.

Where do you draw the line as to what is reality... and what is just a story?

So, you don't believe that these are actual events?

1 Cor.1:22.

Your salvation does depend on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just like all humans...

What makes you think I have no grasp of that?

Do you believe that He was born of a virgin,

Yes, but that is not the most essential factor concerning his ministry on earth. Like us, if he was truly human, as I believe he was, he had no control whatever over the method of his conception and birth. He had some control over the life he lived, his character, and perceived mission, some of the details of which are recorded by his enthusiastic followers, inspired by The Holy Spirit.

lived the life as described in the gospels... fulfilled all the prophesies from the OT, died, was buried and rose again?

Quite possibly, but it is also possible that many of the incidents recorded are intended as teaching aids for spreading the faith, and added by the early church to suppliment liturgy and demonstrate Christ's credentials as Messiah.

Not all of the events recorded were witnessed by anyone at the time. It is therefore not entirely eye witness evidence as we would require in a modern court of law, some was 'hearsay', or even 'inspiration', but included none the less.

Salvation does not depend on the creation story... Your salvation and the gospel that explains it, is from the same book that you deny for how it was created.

The Bible is not and never has been a book. It is a library of ancient sacred literature, originally written by dozens of different authors, some thousands of miles distant from each other and 1000 years distant from each other in time.

Where do you draw the line as to what is reality... and what is just a story?

How do you do that yourself? Ever read Easop's Fables? Ever understood that they are not actually 'historically factual'? Ever realised that they have a deeper meaning than the mere relating of 'historical facts', but are amusing examples of wise or foolish human conduct.

Ever read Eccl.12:1-7.
Remember your creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come, and the years draw near when you will say, “I have no pleasure in them”; before the sun and the light and the moon and the stars are darkened and the clouds return with the rain; in the day when the guards of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, and the women who grind cease working because they are few, and those who look through the windows see dimly; when the doors on the street are shut, and the sound of the grinding is low, and one rises up at the sound of a bird, and all the daughters of song are brought low; when one is afraid of heights, and terrors are in the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along and desire fails; because all must go to their eternal home, and the mourners will go about the streets; before the silver cord is snapped, and the golden bowl is broken, and the pitcher is broken at the fountain, and the wheel broken at the cistern, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it.

Now ask youself these questions:
Q. Who are the guards of the house?
Q. Who are the strong men?
Q. What are the women who grind, but are now few?
Q. Why are the windows 'dim'?
Q. What are the street doors, and grinding what?
Q. What is the almond tree, why blossom?
Q. What has a grasshopper got to do with anything, especially 'desire'?
Q. WHAT IS THIS ACTUALLY ALL ABOUT?

Find the answer to that and you have found the answer to your own question. "How do you do that yourself?"

The Bible is not a Haynes car maintenace manual offering infallible instructions on living. It is a collection of scrolls decided upon by the Hebrew People and later by the Followers of Jesus Christ with writings that were thought relevant to their FAITH. The Bible is the product of the church, not the other way round.

My salvation does not depend on a book. Neither does it depend on my intellectual assent to what the book contains. My salvation and your salvation and everyone's salvation depends entirely upon what Jesus Christ did when he died and what God has done ever since that event, and whether my heart's intent is to offer God my life in gratitude.

See my signature.

Calminian · May 25, 2019

ExTiff said:
....
My salvation does not depend on a book. Neither does it depend on my intellectual assent to what the book contains. My salvation and your salvation and everyone's salvation depends entirely upon what Jesus Christ did when he died and what God has done ever since that event, and whether my heart's intent is to offer God my life in gratitude.

While I and virtually all biblical creationists agree with you on this, I would just direct you to the "my" statements you're making. Yes, your salvation is secure and the devil knows this. He knows he can't get you unsaved. The best he can do at this point is make you a useless witness so that you don't multiply.

I think that's his grand scheme in tempting the Church deny the creation account and many other things in the Bible. He can't do anything about a Christian's salvation, but he can use them to undermine the authority of Scripture. He wants to show the next generation in the Church that the foundation has severe cracks. I think it's working. We are seeing unprecedented walkouts of the next generation raised in the Church. Ken Ham and others have speculated this is directly due to the destruction of the foundation of the OT. He makes this arguments in several of his books, in particular, Already Gone. You can read the first chapter free: CHAPTER 1Already Gone.

CMI also produced this short documentary which lends credence to this idea. You can watch the extended trailer below.

dad · May 25, 2019

Cis.jd said:
It does matter, just based on the type of arguments you have presented.

Great, so let's assume there was a dark evening and a light day. Works for me.

I don't understand why you are forcing your made answer of God's "hovering" causing light, even going to the point of quoting 1Jo 1:5 which you should have been smart enough to use common sense to know that is a metaphor especially given the context of the chapter and how it's on the topic of spirituality than natural science.

The same guy God gave the book of Revelation to knew that God can light the universe as well as the earth. The physical does have parallels in the spiritual, that does not take away from the reality of either, but adds to it! Since God is the light of New Jerusalem, to say God is Light has more meaning that just some spiritual one.

Unless you are now going to tell me God is composed of Photons, then quoting that verse for your case is completely laughable.

More like photons consist because of God than the other way round. For by Him do all things consist! Not only that, but light in our world can ebb and flow
at the wish and will and command of God as needed! That also means that, although He could easily have been the Light hovering for the earth in creation week's early days, that all He really has to do is wish/will light to assume the position of day and night here!!!! Now that I think about it, I am leaning towards that opinion. In any case it was zero problem whatsoever.

One further indication that God can have light come or go as needed is when the earth stayed light in the battle of Joshua! Possibly independent of the sun even? Then there was the darkness when Jesus died for three hours mid day! People always look for 'natural' explanations, ones that include the sun and other bodies having caused the darkness or light. No. Ha.

So let's add to the list of what demon science doesn't know, how light works, and how it is separated from darkness etc.

Job 38: 19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? 21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? 24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

wow

You clearly don't understand don't understand the point of what I am asking. I'm asking about the "1st day". As Genesis states there was a "First day" after the morning and evening was established, however how can there be an actual "first-day" at the same exact day for the entire world, given it's a sphere and when one side is experiencing morning - the other is experiencing night?

Light could be parted so that part of the earth was light!! Do you and science know how? No way! Haha

dad · May 25, 2019

Cis.jd said:
But there is still nothing in that verse that states that he was omitting light. So your guessed out answer and scriptural inventing is invalid (not to mention completely irrelevant to my point).

When Paul was knocked off his horse by seeing the light from God, he sure figured some light was being emitted from God! God can emit just fine any way He likes.

Also, i do have a verse in where there was no "days before the sun existed". Gen 1:5 states it. "Morning and Night" and the "1st day" was established after the light and darkness was separated.

Yes of course days existed before the sun and will exist when the sun goes out! Days are not dependent on the universe we know!

This is irrelevant. For all we know, this "New Jerusalem" could be a new Earth with a New Sun and this is a ridiculous answer for you to use.

Since it says God was the light of it, your point is routed and mooted.

Where does it say this?

My bad, not sure what I was thinking about, there obviously were days, since we had mornings and Evenings. What we did not have would be days as a result of the sun.

Looks like you are slowly admitting that the Bible isn't meant to be a science book and should not be used as a source for scientific facts.

God knows how to part light. Science doesn't. For creation realities we cannot look to demon science. The quest of demon science is to cast doubt on the very word of God.

I don't care about your assumptions. Unless you can show me in Geneis 1:1-2 that he is causing light, then you are simply just making this up.

He spoke so it happened. His word made the uiverse and the light and the sun, and all things. When He speaks and says let there be morning and evening, you can bet the farm there will be. Why preach baseless doubt?

*Face palm.. some people here honestly make me feel embarrassed to be associated with Christianity.

Funny you should say that.

You seriously take in no importance to facts, reason, or being intelligent. I will surely use your posts as an example in the other boards in where other faiths can talk, just so others can see how many christians here are anti-intellectuals.

Haha

Cis.jd · May 25, 2019

dad said:
Great, so let's assume there was a dark evening and a light day. Works for me.

Why are we going to assume that when it's not written? You have the world being spoken in it's entirety with no specific details to solve this concern.
This is highly contradictory for you to say, especially based on your past arguments.

The same guy God gave the book of Revelation to knew that God can light the universe as well as the earth. The physical does have parallels in the spiritual, that does not take away from the reality of either, but adds to it! Since God is the light of New Jerusalem, to say God is Light has more meaning that just some spiritual one.

But Gen 1 doesn't say he was lighting anything, infact on the 3 verse he makes light so anything before v3 has 0 talks of anything light. You are just inserting your own stuff.

More like photons consist because of God than the other way round. For by Him do all things consist! Not only that, but light in our world can ebb and flow at the wish and will and command of God as needed! That also means that, although He could easily have been the Light hovering for the earth in creation week's early days, that all He really has to do is wish/will light to assume the position of day and night here!!!! Now that I think about it, I am leaning towards that opinion. In any case it was zero problem whatsoever.

Why would i care about your opinions? Why are you that deluded to think that all of this that you have creatively came up with as answers are anything intelligent? It's like you've resolved into trolling now with acting silly on purpose because this is the only way you can avoid admission that you've been completely refuted.

One further indication that God can have light come or go as needed is when the earth stayed light in the battle of Joshua! Possibly independent of the sun even? Then there was the darkness when Jesus died for three hours mid day! People always look for 'natural' explanations, ones that include the sun and other bodies having caused the darkness or light. No. Ha.

There is still nothing in that Gen 1 saying he is omitting light. Sorry, your creative writing is meaningless. I notice you like saying "ha" at the end, which means that you really are not to be taken seriously.

Job 38: 19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? 21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? 24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

wow

Light could be parted so that part of the earth was light!! Do you and science know how? No way! Haha

I've been arguing a kid through out this whole time.

The Barbarian · May 25, 2019

Barbarian observes:
Only a YE creationist could find an expression of faith in God the Creator, to be objectionable.

Calminian said:
Well generally because we trust the record of creation.

I hear your claim, but I note that you have rejected His description of creation for your new, man-made version.

But, wait a minutes, don't you find the expression of YECism objectionable?

I find it in error. Being a Christian, I realize that you won't go to hell for being wrong about this, unless you make your new doctrine into an idol and demand that all Christians have to believe it.

Cis.jd · May 25, 2019

dad said:
When Paul was knocked off his horse by seeing the light from God, he sure figured some light was being emitted from God! God can emit just fine any way He likes.
Yes of course days existed before the sun and will exist when the sun goes out! Days are not dependent on the universe we know!

But there was still no light being omitted by God to light the earth, because Genesis 3 shows him creating the earth's source of light (the sun). And then he separates morning and night..
Another thing is that while you are trolling me with this silly argument of God being the "light" this does not answer Gen 3 on wards where he creates the natural light for the Earth.

Since it says God was the light of it, your point is routed and mooted.

Since you are not capable of comprehending that there is nothing in Gen 1 stating that he was an actual light source prior to the earth. Why don't you then go on the actual argument taking in Gen 3 onwards where he creates the 1st day. I don't understand why you are sticking with your Gen 1 insertions out of nowhere and staying away from this?

my bad, not sure what I was thinking about, there obviously were days, since we had mornings and Evenings. What we did not have would be days as a result of the sun.

But since the Earth is a globe, then how can the earth exactly have a 1st day?

God knows how to part light. Science doesn't. For creation realities we cannot look to demon science. The quest of demon science is to cast doubt on the very word of God.
He spoke so it happened. His word made the uiverse and the light and the sun, and all things. When He speaks and says let there be morning and evening, you can bet the farm there will be. Why preach baseless doubt?
Funny you should say that.

Haha

You really are just trolling. You've made it highly evident that you are not intellectually ready to have a mature and educated debate. Good job being a new example for an atheist to link to as an example of why Christianity "can't be taken seriously".

dad · May 25, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Why are we going to assume that when it's not written? You have the world being spoken in it's entirety with no specific details to solve this concern.

If you think the mornings were dark, or evenings light, well, you should have some reason or biblical support.

This is highly contradictory for you to say, especially based on your past arguments.

Not sure how you missed in my past arguments that God lit the world in creation week.

But Gen 1 doesn't say he was lighting anything, infact on the 3 verse he makes light so anything before v3 has 0 talks of anything light. You are just inserting your own stuff.

We know light was created in this world. It was here as Genesis says by the time the FIRST evening and morning existed here.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

So we know He was here and moving. We know evening and morning were here from day 1. We know He created light by day 1. Any more questions?

Why would i care about your opinions? Why are you that deluded to think that all of this that you have creatively came up with as answers are anything intelligent? It's like you've resolved into trolling now with acting silly on purpose because this is the only way you can avoid admission that you've been completely refuted.

I understand the agony of not comprehending the light. There is help.

There is still nothing in that Gen 1 saying he is omitting light. Sorry, your creative writing is meaningless. I notice you like saying "ha" at the end, which means that you really are not to be taken seriously.

If He parted light and darkness (in a way science has no clue about) then earth would have mornings and evenings, as it did! Now we also know He (who can light the universe) was also right here over the planet. moving. It doesn't make sense to argue above your pay grade about how God lit the earth and divided the light for evenings and mornings. We either believe He did, as He says or we do not. Choose ye this day which side you are on.

I've been arguing a kid through out this whole time.

Flattery will get you no where.

The Barbarian · May 25, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Sorry, I don't hold to the whole "space alien" view...

That's what ID is. Faith in a creator is incompatible with a "scientific Intelligent Design alien." One or the other.

Eve came from Adam, evolution does not allow this

Searching for Truth

Well-Known Member

Searching for Truth

Searching for Truth

Searching for Truth

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Well-Known Member

Crabby Old White Guy

Well-Known Member

Undefeated!

Crabby Old White Guy

Similar threads