Why Abortion Should Be Allowed in the Early Stages

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Shimokita

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Wrong. The life of the already living, breathing woman takes precedence over the potential life in her womb, at least before it is viable and can survive outside the womb.
This argument would only apply in the rare case in which abortion would be necessary to save the mother’s life.

In other cases it is a false comparison, because you are not contrasting the mother’s life against the child. You are contrasting the potential life of the child against the mother’s need for convenience in not having to give birth to or care for a child.

A potential life trumps convenience, at least for any Christian.
 
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com7fy8

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Wrong. The life of the already living, breathing woman takes precedence over the potential life in her womb, at least before it is viable and can survive outside the womb.
I do not see this in God's word. When women of God in the Bible knew they had become pregnant, women of God already knew the LORD had given them children.

Wrong. Jesus was Jesus in Mary's womb because, as the eternal Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity, He is eternal, with no beginning or end. As He said to the Father in John 17:4-5, "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
But, also, our Father knows a human, before that person is conceived in a woman. So, even though the person is not Jesus, this person is known to God.

And a number of women, in killing a conception or later stage of a person, are killing the one they fear that unborn will become. And this killer instinct is effecting other people, than themselves, because of how it makes them capable of relating and influencing others.

If you do what is wrong, or simply consent to what is wrong, there is the evil spirit causing this, and Satan's evil spirit has various effects while having us do some thing. Our Apostle Paul does say there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

As to the rest, the reason why a woman gets an abortion on her fetus before viability is irrelevant, as she is not committing murder at that point, although is probably sinning, but it is between her and God, not us.
But if Satan's spirit in her has her disobeying God, this spirit is also effecting her personality and how she is able to relate with other people. And how she is, spiritually, can spread to effect others.

How we really are in ourselves is what we really can be spreading to make others the same way. Our example in the sight of God, then, is reproductive.

So, it is crucial for a person to find out how to love, so the person is not depending on killing, and is helping others to find out how to love.

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

When Jesus rose from the dead, He was "a life-giving spirit" > 1 Corinthians 15:45. So, as much as we are alive in Jesus, we also are life-giving > 1 John 4:17-18.

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)

So, we need to have compassion on ones who are love-dead. And trust how God is able to make us alive in Jesus.
 
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topher694

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And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

This is an incorrect application of the scripture. You cannot cherry-pick one scripture to make it fit a narrative while ignoring others and context.

Man here = mankind. Adam was the embodiment of all mankind at this moment. When God breathed a part of His Spirit into Adam not only did he breath live into Adam, but into all of mankind, including you and me. Meaning God put into Adam everything that was needed for all of mankind to propagate. So, when a baby is conceived it's spirit is propagated at that moment as well.

THIS lines up with other scriptures that say, "I knew you BEFORE you were in you're mother's womb" and other's commonly used.

At this point I can already hear the rebuttals, but consider this as further evidence: God formed Adam's body (and thus mankind) out of the dust. We don't look at people and say they aren't biological people because God didn't come to earth and personally form them out of some dust. We recognize the biological process to create a human that bibilcally started in the garden with Adam & dust. So why in the world would we apply two different standards of interpretation to the biological process and the spiritual process to the very same scripture? The same sentence even!

MANKIND didn't have life until it was fully biological formed by God to reproduce and then God infused a part of His Spirit into mankind via Adam. We all were biologically formed in the Garden, and spiritually formed in eternity.

Abortion is murder no matter what trimester. It is astonishing the lengths Christians will go to rationalize and justify otherwise. We shouldn't be surprised that the world does these things, it always has, but this should not be an issue for Christianity.
 
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Calminian

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Thanks, JCS. I do think this is a thoughtful post, though I do have some disagreement and some possible challenges and suggestions.

I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

True. But then God said he knits Adam's descendants together in the womb. It's also interesting that both Jesus and John the Baptist are referred to as people while still in the womb.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

That's a question I wish the Bible answered. But since it doesn't shouldn't we error on the safe side? Yes, as you point out, men have speculated. But they don't sound sure to me, nor should they be. Frankly, they don't know.

What we do know is that God knits us in the womb, and knew us even before we were in the womb. That much is undeniable.

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

But interestingly, Jesus very first name in prophecy is zara' (seed) (Gen. 3:15).

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. ...

And he might be right. The question is, where do we error? Augustine didn't have the science available to him we have today. We know today that the child has its own DNA, separate from the mother and father, from the moment of conception. Is that useful information? Definitely persuasive to me.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

Again, this is based on an assumption by Augustine that neither of us are sure about. Should we take that chance?

That said, I'm might go along with this in the case of rape. I don't like the idea of a woman having to bear her rapist's child. Many women will, mind you, but I have compassion for those that would be traumatized by this. In those cases, if I were King, i suppose, I would allow the abortion in the early trimester (as you suggest), but charge the rapist with murder. Not a perfect solution by any means, as the whole situation is tragic. But, at the very least we need to honor human life by punishing the one responsible for its life and inevitable death.
 
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Cis.jd

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I think it all depends on circumstances actually. I can't say I support abortion entirely but I can think of possibility of circumstances in someones life that may make it understandable.

Murder in general is a sin, and abortion is categorized as murder (which is why Christians are against it), however I know that many of us can imagine situations where murder maybe necessary (self-defense, trying to save someone, when you are at war, etc).


My problem with the legalization/support of abortion is that it seems like a pop-culture cliche than anything significant. With idiot protestors holding signs as to how being against abortion is "war against women" and random college punks trying to make the support for abortion to be like a civil-rights movement is something i can't stand. The arguments in support for abortion are 90% irrational-SJWism.
 
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GodLovesCats

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The mother has the right to make sure she does not do what can get her pregnant. But her unborn has rights. If she chooses to take action which results in conception, the child then has rights.

Also, it is God's choice if He wants to have the child. This goes beyond her so-called rights. We all need to submit to God's will, and not be autonomous and independent.

This is not correct. An unborn baby's rights begin when it is viable. That is a fact. You don't have to like it but it is what it is in the United States, where the law of the land is one that prevents religions from being sources of the laws. This is how it has always been since the late 1700s, but in 1973 it was confirmed not all unborn babies have rights - in fact, none of them do before a specific point in their development.
 
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Deborah D

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.
Who decides when an unborn baby is viable? You? A doctor? Only God knows this for sure!!! So, one moment it's okay to cut the unborn to shreds because he/she can't live outside the womb, but the next moment it's not okay?

I hope and pray that you will rethink your position on this life and death issue. Abortion stops a beating heart, which begins to form at 3 weeks and is visible at 6 weeks of pregnancy. Taking an innocent life is an abomination to God!

When Does A Fetus Develop A Heartbeat?
 
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Robin Mauro

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.
It is a difficult issue; one of the most difficult of our time. If not for technology, we would not even be struggling with it. But it also seems to me, there have always been ways for a woman to bring on her period within the first three months, using certain herbs for instance, that thin the blood, and this knowledge was hidden from us when men took over birthing, as doctors, and got away with burning many mid-wives at the stake by calling them witches.
 
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Calminian

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Jeremiah 1:5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

When I was living in sin I got a girl pregnant and she didn't tell me. She got an abortion and I had no idea. Well I had a dream before I was a christian and my deceased grandmother was in it crying and talking about an abortion. I recently realized she was talking about the abortion I caused by fornication. God will hold you accountable for your sin.

Yes, he will, but he will not forget your works either and his judgement seat when he catches up in the air. We're all a mixed bag and in this case, it was not your intention cause a life or a death and your grief is a sign of genuine faith.
 
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Probably the same way some Democrats are pro-lifers.
I was a Democrat once, back in the day when one could be a Democrat and pro-life. Back when the Democrats were actually for the little guy. I do admire the persistence of 'Democrats for Life' but they are fighting an already lost battle.
 
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Davidnic

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

I consider it to be murder post-viability in the third trimester, and would oppose it except for the life health of the mother.

Murder can best be defined as the unjustified killing of a living human being.

And contrary to what many people say, the Bible does not say that life begins at conception, but at ensoulment.

Genesis 2:7 - And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Adam didn't become a living being until he was fully formed, until God created and infused a soul in him, not when he was still a collection of dust that God placed in the garden.

Obviously, this was a special case though, every human being alive now spent nine months as a fetus in their mother's womb, but the question is when was the fetus ensouled?

St. Augustine said that "
The law does not provide that the act abortion pertains to homicide,
for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation."

Thomas Aquinas said that "the intellective soul [true person] is created by God
at the completion of man's coming into being."

Jacques Martin said that to "admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception,when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby."

Indeed. Just like it is absurd to call a planted acorn a tree.

You see, while Augustine felt abortion at any stage was sinful, he did not believe that early abortion —the first three months—was murder because the fetus had not been animated by a God-given soul yet. Likewise, Thomas Aquinas, and Popes Innocent III and Gregory XIV also believed that early abortion was not murder, while later ones were, after quickening, when the fetus starts moving and kicking.

As such, terminating a fetus in the early trimesters does not kill a living human being. Therefore, it is not murder. I agree with that principle.

Imagine if a woman, in a fit of jealously, rammed her car into her cheating boyfriend, grievously injuring him and irreparably damaging one of his vital organs. As a result, if he doesn't get an organ transplant he will likely die or be dead in two yearsfrom complications.

His girlfriend happens to be a perfect match; can the state force her to donate her organ to save her? No, they can't, and neither should they be able to, for she has bodily autonomy over her person, and no state can take that away from her.

The state can and should charge her with aggravated assault and, if he dies, vehicular manslaughter. But they should not be able to forcibly strap her to a medical exam room and extract a kidney from her, relegating her from womanhood to being a simple incubator.

The same logic applies with abortion, women are allowed to get abortions before viability because she has bodily autonomy, and she can't be forced to live as a human incubator.

You cite Aquinas and Augustine. but the thing is you're actually working from very faulty cherry picking. This serves as a rebuttal to just about everything there, when mentioning St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and several Popes... You open it up for Catholic source rebuttal.

CHAPTER 43

I quote a Catholic source since you tried to use Catholic sources and misrepresented our beliefs. I don't think you did it intentionally since the misrepresentations have been floating around the internet for a long time. It's just they've been there so long that most Catholic apologists shake their heads when they come up.

Also St. Augustine reconciles potential errors in light of the teachings of his mentor St. Ambrose.

And St. Thomas Aquinas would accept ensoulment as intrinsically connected dogmatically to the Immaculate Conception at conception.

So the link refutes the misrepresentations that fly around from the cherry-picking of quotes.

As far as the bodily autonomy argument, that's been refuted in multiple threads over the last week.

I suppose we can go all into it again.
 
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Calminian

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Who decides when an unborn baby is viable??? You??? A doctor??? Only God knows this for sure!!! ...

That's really the crux for me. Augustine speculated (which I thank the OP for brining up, I was not aware of this) that the soul might not enter immediately at conception, but he argued either way that is was sin and he can only speculate. Do we take a chance support early abortions, knowing there's a chance they are murder and deeply offensive to God. And since God knows these souls before they are conceived, might he be offended the same, either way?
 
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GodLovesCats

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I was a Democrat once, back in the day when one could be a Democrat and pro-life. Back when the Democrats were actually for the little guy. I do admire the persistence of 'Democrats for Life' but they are fighting an already lost battle.

What is the lost battle? Democrats are going to defeat every state that passed a heartbeat law.
 
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Calminian

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What is the lost battle? Democrats are going to defeat every state that passed a heartbeat law.

You hope, but I do believe you are wrong. I think the tide of public opinion is finally turning (I hope).
 
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Davidnic

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What is the lost battle? Democrats are going to defeat every state that passed a heartbeat law.

If true that proves his point that the Democrats for life are fighting a losing battle against the monolithic strong-arming of their party.
 
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Albion

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I'm an evangelical Christian who believes that although abortion is sinful, it isn't murder, at least in the early trimesters before fetal viability, and that it should be permitted until the unborn child can survive on its own, as the mother is a living human being with her own rights and autonomy over her body.

It is not her body.

And, by the way, if the whole situation is as you have outlined, why would it be a sin??
 
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GodLovesCats

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You hope, but I do believe you are wrong. I think the tide of public opinion is finally turning (I hope).

Mississippi has already lost its first round . . . TWICE. Kentucky and Iowa had their heartbeat bills blocked and North Dakota's law is dead.
 
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hedrick

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It is not her body.

And, by the way, if the whole situation is as you have outlined, why would it be a sin??
Remember, through much of Christian history, it was regarded as a sin even though it was dubious that it was murder. Views varied, with the Didache considering it murder. But Aquinas didn't think there was a real soul present from the beginning, but still considered it wrong.

It was considered a sin even by people who didn't think it was murder because it resulted in non-procreative sex. It was part of a larger picture of sexual ethics that I disagree with but many accept.
 
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Albion

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Remember, through much of Christian history, it was regarded as a sin even though it was dubious that it was murder.
Yes, but I was asking why it would be a sin given the rationale offered to us by the writer of the OP.
 
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