Christian tradition and Protestant denial of it

Albion

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It's good to distinguish Tradition from tradition. Baptism is a Tradition. [/quote
No, Baptism is clearly not a Tradition--or a tradition for that matter--since it is based on Scripture.

[quote Tradition with a small t are meant to help, if they become more trouble than they're worth they can be changed to fit current needs or ended.
Yes, in that case we are speaking of customs; but Tradition with a capital T refers to a theory about creating doctrines.
 
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Albion

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Do you mean that is what Tradition is? A theory?
We know what traditions are. But when in a theological discussion the matter of "Tradition" or "Holy Tradition" or "Sacred Tradition" -- all with a capital T -- comes up, we are talking about a theory, that's right.

So what is the theory? It is that there is the Bible which teaches us doctrine, but there is also a stream of opinion or belief, custom, etc. about some non-Scriptural matter which the people of God have been inspired to believe throughout the history of the Church.

If such a belief is identified by the church, it can be made into a doctrine, a dogma, even though it has no Biblical basis.

It is theorized, further, that this is right to do since the custom, legend, folklore, belief was allegedly inspired by God just as he earlier inspired the writing of the books of the Bible.
 
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Tone

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We know what traditions are. But when in a theological discussion the matter of "Tradition" or "Holy Tradition" or "Sacred Tradition" -- all with a capital T -- comes up, we are talking about a theory, that's right.

So what is the theory? It is that there is the Bible which teaches us doctrine, but there is also a stream of opinion or belief, custom, etc. about some non-Scriptural matter which the people of God have been inspired to believe throughout the history of the Church.

If such a belief is identified by the church, it can be made into a doctrine, a dogma, even though it has no Biblical basis.

It is theorized, further, that this is right to do since the custom, legend, folklore, belief was allegedly inspired by God just as he earlier inspired the writing of the books of the Bible.


Sounds like evolution...
 
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GreekOrthodox

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This is from the Orthodox Church in America website which explains the elements that make up Holy Tradition (The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - Sources of Christian Doctrine - Tradition)

Among the elements which make up the Holy Tradition of the Church, the Bible holds the first place. Next comes the Church’s liturgical life and its prayer, then its dogmatic decisions and the acts of its approved churchly councils, the writings of the church fathers, the lives of the saints, the canon laws, and finally the iconographic tradition together with the other inspired forms of creative artistic expression such as music and architecture. All of the elements of Holy Tradition are organically linked together in real life. None of them stands alone. None may be separated or isolated from the other or from the wholeness of the life of the Church.
For us, one of the difficulties in explaining this from the Orthodox POV, is that in trying to discuss one element completely separated from the rest of Tradition, doesnt work very well. Years ago I heard it explained this way. Tradition is a crown with a central diamond (the Holy Scriptures) set with other precious metals and gems (the Liturgical life, the councils, prayers, icons, and music). Protestants want to pry everything out of the crown and then set the diamond up on a pedestal by itself.
 
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Albion

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This is from the Orthodox Church in America website which explains the elements that make up Holy Tradition (The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - Sources of Christian Doctrine - Tradition)

Among the elements which make up the Holy Tradition of the Church, the Bible holds the first place.

(meaning that something else is also authoritative)

9Next comes the Church’s liturgical life and its prayer, then its dogmatic decisions and the acts of its approved churchly councils, the writings of the church fathers, the lives of the saints, the canon laws, and finally the iconographic tradition together with the other inspired forms of creative artistic expression such as music and architecture. All of the elements of Holy Tradition

(Very well. Then these are the something else)*



are organically linked together in real life. None of them stands alone.
None may be separated or isolated from the other or from the wholeness of the life of the Church.
For us, one of the difficulties in explaining this from the Orthodox POV, is that in trying to discuss one element completely separated from the rest of Tradition, doesnt work very well. Years ago I heard it explained this way. Tradition is a crown with a central diamond (the Holy Scriptures) set with other precious metals and gems (the Liturgical life, the councils, prayers, icons, and music). Protestants want to pry everything out of the crown and then set the diamond up on a pedestal by itself.

That sounds harsh, but its probably correct to say. We believe that nothing equals the word of God given by revelation (Bible)--not icons, writings of the church fathers, lives of the saints, or the rest of what was mentioned.

Note: That isn't to say that those other things are unimportant or unhelpful, just that when it comes to determining doctrine, there is nothing that is the equal in authority to the Holy Scriptures. That is not an unreasonable perspective.
 
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Hawkins

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Christianity starts with the Jews trying to remove almost all the Jewish customs. It starts with removing traditions instead of adding traditions. By Paul, gentiles don't need to basically follow any Jewish traditions, except for a few which may severely offend the Jewish Christians. These few Jewish customs may have died away along with the vanishing of the Jewish Christians.

That's why Protestants suspect that Christianity customs which don't have a Jewish origin may come from pagan religions during the development of Christianity after 3rd or 4th century.
 
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Albion

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Christianity starts with the Jews trying to remove almost all the Jewish customs. It starts with removing traditions instead of adding traditions. By Paul, gentiles don't need to basically follow any Jewish traditions, except for a few which may severely offend the Jewish Christians. These few Jewish customs may have died away along with the vanishing of the Jewish Christians.

That's why Protestants suspect that Christianity customs which don't have a Jewish origin may come from pagan religions during the development of Christianity after 3rd or 4th century.
SOME Protestants, I suppose, but that is again talking about traditions rather than Tradition, the extra-Biblical method some churches use to define dogma.
 
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Hawkins

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SOME Protestants, I suppose, but that is again talking about traditions rather than Tradition, the extra-Biblical method some churches use to define dogma.

I don't see a difference there. They were not in from the beginning if they don't have a Jewish origin.

More importantly, I believed that everything was kept simple in early churches because they were facing the poor. They didn't have a grand church with grand ritual processes.
 
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Albion

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I don't see a difference there. They were not in from the beginning if they don't have a Jewish origin.
Yes, they were. Some examples are Papal Infallibility and the bodily Assumption of Mary into Heaven. These are definitely not continuations of Jewish legends, customs, observances, etc.
 
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Hawkins

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Yes, they were. Some examples are Papal Infallibility and the bodily Assumption of Mary into Heaven. These are definitely not continuations of Jewish legends, customs, observances, etc.

All I mean to say is that whether you consider them Tradition or traditions, it won't make a difference. If they are not from a Jewish origin, then they were not there when Christianity started in the first 2 centuries. That's my point.
 
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Newtheran

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So let me preface by saying, I know not all Protestants are the same and I know they don't all deny Christian tradition in the same way. Once again, where I'm coming from is a very small corner of the American Evangelical world -- but most of what I have seen personally looks like this.

One of the first things I got interested in that led me to want to study the Early Church is wondering what happened to all the Apostles after the New Testament ends. The story seems to just end abruptly with Paul sitting in house arrest, then some time later we see John stranded on the Isle of Patmos. And most everybody around me seemed, oddly, to be content with that. I asked questions, and the general answer I got was, "Nobody knows, the Bible doesn't say."

That didn't really sit well with me. I studied history, and we knew exactly what happened to Augustus Caesar and all his family, even where they were buried. We had stories about people from the same time period as the Bible in the history of the Roman Empire... but when it comes to Jesus's disciples, they seem to have simply sailed off the map of history. When I pointed this out, somebody responded, "I guess they just weren't that important to history."

Weren't that important to history? Christianity changed the face of the whole world, and these Apostles were the men who carried it to the ends of the earth! And what happened to them wasn't important to anybody to record or remember?

And then, with a sickening feeling, I began to realize that that wasn't exactly true.

Protestants (meaning Evangelicals) just don't read those books. Not only do they not read them, they pretend they don't exist. It's probably true that most of the people I asked simply didn't know any better, but somewhere along the line, somebody consciously declared, "We know there are these traditions, and we're going to ignore them."

Why ignore them? Because they're "Catholic"? Is everything "Catholic" automatically untrue? I really don't understand this absolute severance that seems to define the Protestantism I know -- separation from everything that came before, denial of anything that isn't expressly what we believe. Scripture as the absolute and only source of knowledge -- not just about faith, but about history and science and other things too.

The line I hear again and again is "we don't need 'traditions of men'". But that isn't at all what Jesus was even saying. Tradition is the handing down of knowledge, about who we are and where we came from. It doesn't have to be an obstacle to faith, but can enhance it and even inform it.

So yes, I guess I'm complaining a lot in this post, but it had a point when I started. How does your particular group handle the early history and tradition of the Christian Church? If you embrace it -- do you verify it? If you treat it with skepticism, why and how? If you ignore it as unimportant, why?

Frankly, almost all of evangelicalism, pentecostalism, calvinism, and the descendents of the anabaptists are completely severed from church history. Most don't even realize that Roman Catholicism wasn't officially founded until 1054. Often those who get interested in the history of the faith want to ignore the last two millenia of history and try and reach back into Judaism for that history. It's a bit of a tragedy actually.
 
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Radagast

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Christian tradition and Protestant denial of it

We don't deny it. We say it's not inspired, and hence not as reliable as Scripture.

In fact, some of the works forming part of "Tradition" are now recognised as forgeries, even by Catholics (the 2nd Epistle of Clement, for example).

Protestants (meaning Evangelicals) just don't read those books. Not only do they not read them, they pretend they don't exist.

Frankly, almost all of evangelicalism, pentecostalism, calvinism, and the descendents of the anabaptists are completely severed from church history.

Not true.

As counter evidence, take a look at ccel.org, an Evangelical website run first by Wheaton College (Illinois) and later by Calvin College (Michigan).
 
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