Can you bring up a child as a Christian without indoctrinating him/her?

quatona

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I personally see many atheists go a little berserk over teaching God is the Creator.
Taught as a fact? Sure. That crosses my line of indoctrination. I won´t go berserk over it, though - it´s your home, and I´m sure you are doing your best in trying to bring up your children in a good way. I just call that "indoctrination".
But I don't see many question the idea they could be wrong. Skeptics like to say they do make attempts at falsification, but they are sure for sure about this one. Funny stuff.
God, due to the way It is defined, cannot be falsified.

I have absolutely no problem to say "there is this and this and this...opinion out there; I happen to believe X".

After raising three kids to success, they saw and experienced the fierce opposition by atheists in getting their degrees.
Ah, you are talking about the education system now....
I don´t see how your private beliefs can possibly even get in the way of getting a degree. But maybe you are talking about denying evolution in science class or something....

Loving God is not even tolerated. I told them that as well, along with the opposition they would face. I guess my "indoctrination" worked. ^_^
I don´t know where you live.
Where I live we have science classes and religion classes.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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I think every religion would take a hit if people were exposed to religious ideas only after they turned 25 and could then pick up what they wanted.

Most of the religious ideas are bizarre, unprovable, illogical and silly so having adults without any affinity with those ideas starting to adhere to them would be a fraction of the people we have now believing in those same ideas.
 
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Magillacuddy

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Taught as a fact? Sure. That crosses my line of indoctrination. I won´t go berserk over it, though - it´s your home, and I´m sure you are doing your best in trying to bring up your children in a good way. I just call that "indoctrination".

God, due to the way It is defined, cannot be falsified.


Ah, you are talking about the education system now....
I don´t see how your private beliefs can possibly even get in the way of getting a degree. But maybe you are talking about denying evolution in science class or something....


I don´t know where you live.
Where I live we have science classes and religion classes.

They are already raised and launched, and have their own experience with the indoctrination system in the US. You don't have to see how it is possible.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I am nowhere near having children, but I just find this to be an interesting question. I've heard many atheists claim that Christians who raise their children to do things such as memorize and recite Bible verses, go to church, etc. are indoctrinating or "brainwashing" those children into thinking a certain way, which they claim to be wrong. I agree that brainwashing is wrong, of course.

So my question: Can you raise a child to be a Christian without "indoctrinating" them? Are these two things synonymous? Is indoctrination inevitable (for any worldview) no matter what sort of environment a child grows up in?

As someone who grew up going to a private Christian school, I can say that ideas were drilled into my head that I no longer agree with. For instance, in the fifth grade, the school started teaching us that the Theory of Evolution was unquestionably wrong. We barely learned about the Theory of Evolution before we were told that it is a bunch of garbage. I used to reject the theory with a fiery passion as a result, but now I accept the possibility of its truth, still as a Christian.

I guess it wasn't very effective indoctrination then if you could come to a conclusion that contradicted the brainwashing. I don't see my instruction in the religion I was born into as brainwashing. The instructional methods used were exactly the same methods as were used to teach me math, science , history etc. by the secular authorities in the secular school. The authority figure tells one what the accepted truth is and you regurgitate it for a reward. Brainwashing /indoctrination from what I understand is quite a bit more intense and difficult to de program from.
IMO people that cannot argue properly or have no good argument to offer resort to all kinds of excuses for why another person is not convinced by their arguments so I wouldn't worry about whether you would be brainwashing anyone by simply passing along to them what you believe and instructing them in those beliefs. If they live in society , as most likely they will, they certainly will be inundated with instruction from the opposite POV and probably in a much more intense and incessant manner than anything you or I are capable of delivering.
 
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quatona

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They are already raised and launched, and have their own experience with the indoctrination system in the US.

You don't have to see how it is possible.
If you don´t want to explain or describe it in more detail, that´s completely fine. I can´t figure your nor their experiences into my evaluation then, though.
 
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Belk

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I am nowhere near having children, but I just find this to be an interesting question. I've heard many atheists claim that Christians who raise their children to do things such as memorize and recite Bible verses, go to church, etc. are indoctrinating or "brainwashing" those children into thinking a certain way, which they claim to be wrong. I agree that brainwashing is wrong, of course.

So my question: Can you raise a child to be a Christian without "indoctrinating" them? Are these two things synonymous? Is indoctrination inevitable (for any worldview) no matter what sort of environment a child grows up in?

As someone who grew up going to a private Christian school, I can say that ideas were drilled into my head that I no longer agree with. For instance, in the fifth grade, the school started teaching us that the Theory of Evolution was unquestionably wrong. We barely learned about the Theory of Evolution before we were told that it is a bunch of garbage. I used to reject the theory with a fiery passion as a result, but now I accept the possibility of its truth, still as a Christian.


I believe that you can do so. It is not easy though. To not indoctrinate someone means you have to allow them to think critically about ideas and a lot of religious ideas do not fair well under critical thought. Your point of evolution is a great example. Evolution is one of the single best evidenced scientific theories we have. There is an entire sub forum here were people with no scientific credentials make very poor arguments against it. Religion is taken on faith and faith alone. That does not stand up to reasoning. It is complete in and of itself.
 
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Kylie

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So my question: Can you raise a child to be a Christian without "indoctrinating" them? Are these two things synonymous? Is indoctrination inevitable (for any worldview) no matter what sort of environment a child grows up in?

If you teach them WHAT to think, then you are indoctrinating them. Raising a child to be Christian is indoctrination. But raising a child to be anti-religion is also indoctrination.

if you want to avoid indoctrination, don't teach them what to think. Teach them HOW to think. Teach them how to evaluate evidence, how to think critically. They are, I think, essential skills, and it will serve them when it comes to finding their position on religion as well as everything else they face in life.
 
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RDKirk

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If you teach them WHAT to think, then you are indoctrinating them. Raising a child to be Christian is indoctrination. But raising a child to be anti-religion is also indoctrination.

if you want to avoid indoctrination, don't teach them what to think. Teach them HOW to think. Teach them how to evaluate evidence, how to think critically. They are, I think, essential skills, and it will serve them when it comes to finding their position on religion as well as everything else they face in life.

The ability to think critically depends on a certain level of maturation of the brain. I would have said that would be around age 13, but the smart folk who have advanced degrees on this stuff now say it takes until age 25.

But it's certainly not at age 3 or 4 or 5, when children begin to engage the outside world in significant degrees. They're not doing critical thinking yet.

Someone is going to have to indoctrinate them into being social creatures.

"Don't bite other children."
"Why not?"
"Because they might bite you back."
"But they don't bite me back. When I bite them, they give me the toy I want."
 
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ViaCrucis

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If you teach them WHAT to think, then you are indoctrinating them. Raising a child to be Christian is indoctrination. But raising a child to be anti-religion is also indoctrination.

if you want to avoid indoctrination, don't teach them what to think. Teach them HOW to think. Teach them how to evaluate evidence, how to think critically. They are, I think, essential skills, and it will serve them when it comes to finding their position on religion as well as everything else they face in life.

Instilling values--such as the importance of critical thinking--is still indoctrination. Even by your own standard here, you are still teaching them what to think; in this case it is telling them that critical thinking is something they should believe in.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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RDKirk

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Instilling values--such as the importance of critical thinking--is still indoctrination.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, critical thinking isn't a value, it's a process. A computer can be programmed for critical thinking.

However, part of critical thinking for someone who will operate in a social setting is placing socially relevant values on the factors of critical thinking. Someone would have to define those relative values in a computer program, and they must be indoctrinated into a child as critical thinking is being taught.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well, critical thinking isn't a value, it's a process. A computer can be programmed for critical thinking.

However, part of critical thinking for someone who will operate in a social setting is placing socially relevant values on the factors of critical thinking. Someone would have to define those relative values in a computer program, and they must be indoctrinated into a child as critical thinking is being taught.

I suppose more accurately what I mean is that "critical thinking is important" is a value statement, and so instilling that as a value is indoctrination.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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grasping the after wind

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I suppose more accurately what I mean is that "critical thinking is important" is a value statement, and so instilling that as a value is indoctrination.

-CryptoLutheran

Even teaching children along the lines of one should allow children to experience things without expressing what the parent values are would be indoctrination if we use the definition of indoctrination given by some in this thread. Because by not favoring one set of beliefs over another one is affirming one's belief that all values are equally good thereby indoctrinating one's children into one's POV on that. Teaching anything as a good or bad thing or something worthwhile or useless would be indoctrination.
 
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Kylie

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The ability to think critically depends on a certain level of maturation of the brain. I would have said that would be around age 13, but the smart folk who have advanced degrees on this stuff now say it takes until age 25.

But it's certainly not at age 3 or 4 or 5, when children begin to engage the outside world in significant degrees. They're not doing critical thinking yet.

Someone is going to have to indoctrinate them into being social creatures.

"Don't bite other children."
"Why not?"
"Because they might bite you back."
"But they don't bite me back. When I bite them, they give me the toy I want."

I'd hardly say that's indoctrination akin to forcing religious beliefs on a child...
 
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Kylie

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Instilling values--such as the importance of critical thinking--is still indoctrination. Even by your own standard here, you are still teaching them what to think; in this case it is telling them that critical thinking is something they should believe in.

-CryptoLutheran

This reminds me of those people who argue that belief in God is the same as belief that the sun will rise in the morning. Hardly the same thing.

Teaching a skill is not indoctrination. Did I indoctrinate my daughter into the community of people who speak? Or the community of people who can wipe their bottoms by themselves after they poop?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I am nowhere near having children, but I just find this to be an interesting question. I've heard many atheists claim that Christians who raise their children to do things such as memorize and recite Bible verses, go to church, etc. are indoctrinating or "brainwashing" those children into thinking a certain way, which they claim to be wrong. I agree that brainwashing is wrong, of course.

So my question: Can you raise a child to be a Christian without "indoctrinating" them? Are these two things synonymous? Is indoctrination inevitable (for any worldview) no matter what sort of environment a child grows up in?

As someone who grew up going to a private Christian school, I can say that ideas were drilled into my head that I no longer agree with. For instance, in the fifth grade, the school started teaching us that the Theory of Evolution was unquestionably wrong. We barely learned about the Theory of Evolution before we were told that it is a bunch of garbage. I used to reject the theory with a fiery passion as a result, but now I accept the possibility of its truth, still as a Christian.
Yes, you can raise a child to appreciate the Christian faith without "indoctrinating" him/her to do so. :cool:
 
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RDKirk

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I'd hardly say that's indoctrination akin to forcing religious beliefs on a child...

"Indoctrination" is not a bad word, just as "socialism" is not a bad word. Right now, you're just using it as a boogeyman label for something you don't like.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This reminds me of those people who argue that belief in God is the same as belief that the sun will rise in the morning. Hardly the same thing.

Teaching a skill is not indoctrination. Did I indoctrinate my daughter into the community of people who speak? Or the community of people who can wipe their bottoms by themselves after they poop?

I mean, yes it is and yes you did.

To indoctrinate literally means to teach someone something.

No, belief in God is not the same thing as belief that the sun will rise in the morning; one is a belief without evidence and the other is belief based on evidence.

But pretending that indoctrination only applies to those ideas/beliefs you don't personally ascribe to is to engage in special pleading.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'd hardly say that's indoctrination akin to forcing religious beliefs on a child...

Every parent "forces" their beliefs on a child. That's how parenting works. The alternative is ignore your child and never teach them anything. Just because you disagree with religious people raising their children in their religion doesn't make what you do any different than what they do. You are simply instilling different sets of values and beliefs according to what you believe is in the best interest of your child. And nobody should be shamed for doing that.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Kylie

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I mean, yes it is and yes you did.

To indoctrinate literally means to teach someone something.

No, belief in God is not the same thing as belief that the sun will rise in the morning; one is a belief without evidence and the other is belief based on evidence.

But pretending that indoctrination only applies to those ideas/beliefs you don't personally ascribe to is to engage in special pleading.

-CryptoLutheran

To indoctrinate is to "teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically." It is not just teaching something the way I might teach my daughter how to play piano. It includes a bias in it, teaching a skewed idea that is inaccurate because of that bias.
 
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Kylie

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Every parent "forces" their beliefs on a child. That's how parenting works. The alternative is ignore your child and never teach them anything. Just because you disagree with religious people raising their children in their religion doesn't make what you do any different than what they do. You are simply instilling different sets of values and beliefs according to what you believe is in the best interest of your child. And nobody should be shamed for doing that.

-CryptoLutheran

As I've said, indoctrination is not the same as teaching. One does not indoctrinate algebra.
 
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