CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
lol sorry I thought this funny. Seriously though I love you guys. Said in all honesty and I do consider you all my brothers and sisters here even if I do not always agree with you.
It was supposed to be funny. I enjoy these debates because they test us and challenge our thinking on theological issues. They also help to clarify what we are talking about, to get away from the theological jargon and say what we really mean. All my comments are in an attitude of love and respect, knowing that CF would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything.

Hammster and I went to 30 pages on our debate about Calvinism, and although we ended in stalemate, it was a very positive and stimulating exchange that probably did test our love and forgiveness of each other, but we ended up knowing that we both had fun and a lot of pleasure in our debate.

So keep boiling the pot and keep this thread interesting!

I was serious about Ellen White. I don't know how closely you abide by her teachings, but I understand that it was and may be still is, the foundation teaching of the SDA church.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That you are deflecting and won’t discuss the verse? Yes, it’s true. (I just answered your question)

No this is not true. I have already answered your question sometime ago through God's WORD. Let me know if you need the link.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one." - John 10:25-30

We learn here why they don’t believe. They aren’t His sheep. Some will try to flip this around and say that they aren’t sheep because they don’t believe. But Jesus is clear.

Another thing we learn is that His sheep are given eternal life. So we need to ask, when does eternal life begin? If begins immediately, and somehow someone can stop being His sheep, then it’s not eternal life.

Lastly, the sheep are given by the Father. It’s inconceivable that Jesus, the Shepherd, would lose anything given to Him by His Father. So those who say we can lose our salvation are placing a divide in the Godhead.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
No this is not true. I have already answered your question sometime ago through God's WORD. Let me know if you need the link.
Yes, I need the link where you actually answered the question.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It was supposed to be funny. I enjoy these debates because they test us and challenge our thinking on theological issues. They also help to clarify what we are talking about, to get away from the theological jargon and say what we really mean. All my comments are in an attitude of love and respect, knowing that CF would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything.

Hammster and I went to 30 pages on our debate about Calvinism, and although we ended in stalemate, it was a very positive and stimulating exchange that probably did test our love and forgiveness of each other, but we ended up knowing that we both had fun and a lot of pleasure in our debate.

So keep boiling the pot and keep this thread interesting!

I was serious about Ellen White. I don't know how closely you abide by her teachings, but I understand that it was and may be still is, the foundation teaching of the SDA church.

Thanks for sharing this brother I enjoyed reading it. As to EGW, well that is another topic. But for me honestly I really do love God's WORD. That is where I spend most of my time. So to me God's WORD is supreme above all because it is here we find JESUS.

Thanks for sharing

God bless.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one." - John 10:25-30

We learn here why they don’t believe. They aren’t His sheep. Some will try to flip this around and say that they aren’t sheep because they don’t believe. But Jesus is clear.

Another thing we learn is that His sheep are given eternal life. So we need to ask, when does eternal life begin? If begins immediately, and somehow someone can stop being His sheep, then it’s not eternal life.

Lastly, the sheep are given by the Father. It’s inconceivable that Jesus, the Shepherd, would lose anything given to Him by His Father. So those who say we can lose our salvation are placing a divide in the Godhead.

Makes no difference to what was posted to you earlier...

JOHN 10:26-27
[25] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
[26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
[28] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[30] I and the Father are one."

Notice here that it is those who are God's Sheep who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD v27. Those who do not BELIEVE are not God's Sheep v26

God bless.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You never answered. But that’s okay. I’m not really expecting. But thanks for the links. Others can look at them and see who is correct.
Of course I did. You did not believe it so you repeated yourself but that is ok we can agree to disagree.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Makes no difference to what was posted to you earlier...

JOHN 10:26-27
[25] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
[26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
[28] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[30] I and the Father are one."

Notice here that it is those who are God's Sheep who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD v27. Those who do not BELIEVE are not God's Sheep v26

God bless.
It wasn’t for you. I knew you’d ignore it.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It wasn’t for you. I knew you’d ignore it.
I did not ingnore you. Your question was answered many pages back (shown in post #207) through the scriptures. You simply ignored what was shared with you because you did not believe it. Saying I did not answer your question has no truth in it as shown already in post # 207. I will leave that between you and God. We can agree to disagree.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I did not ingnore you. Your question was answered many pages back (shown in post #207) through the scriptures. You simply ignored what was shared with you because you did not believe it.
You twisted scripture. That’s why I didn’t believe you.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You twisted scripture. That’s why I didn’t believe you.
Well that has no truth in it. It is God's WORD not me that say all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD are his sheep not me v27.

We can ask the same question this way, are Gods' sheep those who DO NOT BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD?

What would your answer be?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Nope not at all. It is you that have done this not me. It is God's WORD not me that say all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD are his sheep not me v27.

We can ask the same question this way, are Gods' sheep those who DO NOT BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD?
Huh?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,179
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Yep I thought that would be your response. You have none do you. Nice talking to you brother perhaps we can chat more latter. I have to go for now.

God bless :wave:
I don’t understand your question. Did you ask if God’s sheep are unbelievers?
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Great post JASON! Goes very nicely with the scriptures from the OLD and NEW Testament provided in the OP. Thanks for sharing. Do you mind if I provide a link to this post in the OP?
Thanks for sharing and nice work

God bless

Please do. It would be my pleasure.

Blessings to you in the Lord this fine day.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Simply amazing. You are actually trying to convince everyone that Luke 10, John 10, and Matthew 25 are talking about the same incident and the same people. They aren't. Nor did I say they were.
You are the one who is conflating every passage that speaks of sheep or even people doing good in general. No goats and their separation from sheep are mentioned in John 10 and no sheep or goats are mentioned in any way in Luke 10.
What an amazing statement. Have you even read Matthew 25?

So Jesus is not referring to believers in general when he talks about sheep or when he talks about loving your neighbor? Again, the burden of proof is on you to produce Scriptural evidence to prove otherwise.

You said:
By the way - I did make sure that there was a link to Matthew 25 in your quote, which I was responding to, so people could read it for themselves. Here is is again. Matthew 25:31-46

I know from experience that people do things like you are doing because they realize that most people reading along will not read the individual scriptures or be troubled to read back and see what was or was not said.

Okay. I am sorry. My apologies. I re-read the passage again, and it does say nations.

32 "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."
(Matthew 25:31-46).​

So please accept my humble apologies.
But how does this really change anything?
Are we to really assume that those unbelieving nations that merely did good works or helped the poor will go into God's kingdom, and those nations that did not help the poor will be thrown into everlasting fire? Surely a person has to accept Jesus first in order to truly obey to begin with.
Are you suggesting that these nations are believers in Jesus Christ?
Also, in the passage in Matthew 25 says that He will separate them one from another. I take this to mean that He will separate those individuals out of those nations who had helped the poor genuinely as a part of them being believers in Jesus Christ. For no person can be saved by helping the poor alone.

Also, Revelation 7 says this:

9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen."
(Revelation 7:9-12).​

So these all nations that are in God's kingdom are believers because they are worshiping God and they are praising His salvation. For it does not make any sense that nations will be saved to go into God's kingdom on the basis of helping the poor or not (without believing in Jesus Christ).

You said:
Either way your theology of works salvation can easily be seen in this exchange for what it is by anyone caring enough to look through it. Your false gospel is obviously contrived by taking quotes out of context, conflating scriptures that are not related one to the other, and simply ignoring what you don't want to acknowledge.

Just as I am not perfect and I am able to miss seeing something in God's Word, perhaps this is the case for you, as well. For I have studied this particular topic for many years; And I have come to the conclusion that...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Hello brother Cis.jd nice to see you. Good post. Anyother brother at the top of the same page where you posted also posted some good examples. I believe this is what the scriptures teach as shown in the OP. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

God bless.
Yes, but i highly disagree. We can't assume someone's state of mind, their life, or whatever relationship they've had with God. I find it arrogant and ignorant to think that this person "just never had grace" which is why he walked away. The problem with many fundes is that they really have no concept of the reality called "circumstance" and they think that their entire pov's is valid for everybody.

At the same time, if no one can turn away from God then what is the point about being adamant towards what ever is "secular"?
 
Upvote 0