Women Preachers...The truth!

Michael Collum said:

I see a point being made about something the parents didn't do that may be "missing the mark" but I find the emphasis of blame and accusation to be far more sinful ... and more apt a culprit for the world that creates predators.

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Truth isn't "sinful".
As we are writing in generalities, it isn't as though I am pointing at a particular set of parents who allowed something to happen to their child.
But the fact is that if parents were nurturing and protecting their kids as God has outlined, there would be far less tragedy happening everyday.

Phil W said:

"Allows"?
As He doesn't step in to halt such terror, I guess He does allow it.
But His reasons are unknown to me.


Yet some have shelter from the rain while others don't.
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:7-8)
Don't you think those words are true?
I do.

As this thread is about women preachers, and has splintered into other ungodly behaviors by women, and how scripture not only tells of how women are to be subservient to God, Jesus Christ, husband, (and pastor), we have come to this point...what happens to those who, without faith, disobey the printed word.
Rape was the example raised by one here to prove that even women who obey God have no protection from Him.
I can't agree with that opinion, as God does protect those who submit to Him.
If you find that "offensive", so be it.

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YES I would find it significantly offensive unpastoral obscene and entirely unacceptable to suggest in any way to someone who had been raped that they lacked the required faith to prevent the event. I was ready to let this pass, however I am convinced that God has hallmarks of compassion and love truth and virtue. How dare you suggest that God protects people who have the right faith or the right amount of faith from suffering. The argument is counter scripture. God is not indifferent. When it comes to suffering God shows no partiality. Faith is a light, not a walking stick nor an umbrella.

I understand you are unconcerned at my being offended, as am I, but am am apalled at the image of God you present to a suffering world.

Philip_B said:

YES I would find it significantly offensive unpastoral obscene and entirely unacceptable to suggest in any way to someone who had been raped that they lacked the required faith to prevent the event. I was ready to let this pass, however I am convinced that God has hallmarks of compassion and love truth and virtue. How dare you suggest that God protects people who have the right faith or the right amount of faith from suffering. The argument is counter scripture. God is not indifferent. When it comes to suffering God shows no partiality. Faith is a light, not a walking stick nor an umbrella.

I understand you are unconcerned at my being offended, as am I, but am am apalled at the image of God you present to a suffering world.

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"Resist the devil and he will flee from you."
If one is resisting the devil, and embracing God, they will conduct themselves in a manner that precludes rape.
God has provided all we need to avoid the wickedness of this world, but the unbeliever ignores it.
As you wrote, faith is a light...to get out of the way of dangers.

Equating the devil with a rapist is problematic, at best.

And when people are raped in their own homes, by their own family members, while doing nothing wrong... there is no manner in which we can conduct ourselves which "precludes rape."

Phil W said:

"Resist the devil and he will flee from you."
If one is resisting the devil, and embracing God, they will conduct themselves in a manner that precludes rape.
God has provided all we need to avoid the wickedness of this world, but the unbeliever ignores it.
As you wrote, faith is a light...to get out of the way of dangers.

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I am sorry you clearly seem to have have no understanding of rape and what it means for the victim of rape. It seems you are unintentionally (I can but hope) engaging in victim blaming. Please think about this very carefully. I am not wanting animosity, however the position you take on this is short on compassion - a gospel virtue.

Phil W said:

You know, as well as I, that we can tell by their works.

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No, we can tell by their fruit, Matthew 7:20.
Non Christians can do great works; form charities, give to the poor etc. It doesn't prove they are born again and know God.

Paidiske said:

The evidence is there, but it keeps getting dismissed and explained away. Not much point going through it all again...

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Kind of true, I've been through this one before aswell. It boils down to the use of eisegesis or not. Liberals supporting female priests hold a entirely different scriptural view than the rest of us.

Stabat Mater said:

Kind of true, I've been through this one before aswell. It boils down to the use of eisegesis or not.

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Eisegesis is saying "Paul said that he did not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man; therefore that means that God has forbidden women from preaching or proclaiming his word."

That's ignoring the fact that God has always allowed women to proclaim his word - Deborah, Miriam, Huldah, the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene and others - have given God's word to others, told them what he is doing in the world and what it means for them. That's what preaching is.
Women preach the same Gospel as men do. It's God's Gospel, God's Kingdom. God's work and God gives his Spirit who, in turn, gives gifts as he will.

Phil W said:

Truth isn't "sinful".
As we are writing in generalities, it isn't as though I am pointing at a particular set of parents who allowed something to happen to their child.
But the fact is that if parents were nurturing and protecting their kids as God has outlined, there would be far less tragedy happening everyday.

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Sin is not justified by making a point. The idea of being right is steeped in the sin of pride.

Michael Collum said:

Sin is not justified by making a point. The idea of being right is steeped in the sin of pride.

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Is that your point?

Phil W said:

I serve a God of kindness and mercy.
He does not allow his children to be raped.
His children have been given all sorts of tools to escape the hypothetical horrors you attempt to introduce into the lives of God's kids.
Why you are unaware of these tools may just be another reason not to allow women to have authority over men.
Don't you think?
I hope you aren't just trying to make God look like some evil monster.

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I think here we are taking a tangent to a particular subset of issues in theodicy.

Of course people are raped; including God's children. That is no hypothetical. This is because human beings have enough free will that some people choose to rape.

Our response should not be to blame the victims but to care for them, and to seek to create a society which does not tolerate rape.

And what we need in our leaders is people who understand pastoral issues like trauma and don't respond to people in ways which only compound the damage done to them.

Phil W said:

If one puts themself out there at the mercy of the unmerciful, they can't blame someone else.

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Again, most rapes occur at home. Which is hardly putting oneself "out there."

The only person to blame for rape is the rapist. Not the victim.

Strong in Him said:

Eisegesis is saying "Paul said that he did not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man; therefore that means that God has forbidden women from preaching or proclaiming his word."

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Not true at all, what you're talking about if I read your post correctly is called exegesis and is the opposite of eisegesis.
The former speaks of the content in the text and the latter speaks about what's not mentioned in the text. Huge difference brother.

Strong in Him said:

That's ignoring the fact that God has always allowed women to proclaim his word - Deborah, Miriam, Huldah, the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene and others - have given God's word to others, told them what he is doing in the world and what it means for them. That's what preaching is.
Women preach the same Gospel as men do. It's God's Gospel, God's Kingdom. God's work and God gives his Spirit who, in turn, gives gifts as he will.

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Its not just preaching, it's also about administration if the sacraments and acting on behalf of christ the so called in persona Christi.
Even if we were to allow and encourage female preachers which we really aren't nor should be doing, the priests role typically exceeds the role of a preacher and none of the women you mention in your eisegesis (not eisegesis not exegesis) ever acted as priests, not in the temple in Jerusalem nor in the early church.

Your position is fueled by politics and not theology my friend, but seeing how this thread and forum is an ecco chamber for liberals I'm not the one holding the power of definition in here my efforts to teach orthodoxy in here will most likely be in vain.

Stabat Mater said:

Not true at all, what you're talking about if I read your post correctly is called exegesis and is the opposite of eisegesis.
The former speaks of the content in the text and the latter speaks about what's not mentioned in the text. Huge difference brother.

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I'm saying that if someone reads 1 Timothy 2:12 and says, "Paul does not allow a woman to teach, therefore that is God's command that women cannot preach in church", THAT is eisegesis. It's reading into the text what is not there.
Exegesis would say, "what is the context of this verse? What is Paul saying, what would Timothy have understood by his words and can we apply this to us today or was it an instruction to, and for, that church then?"

And by the way, I'm female.

Stabat Mater said:

Its not just preaching, it's also about administration if the sacraments and acting on behalf of christ the so called in persona Christi.

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THAT is not mentioned in 1 Tim 2:12. In fact there is no Scripture which says that an ordained minister has to preside over the elements. Come to that, there is no Scripture which says "have a service with special liturgy, a tiny piece of bread/wafer and a small sip of wine/juice and call that communion". Jesus was celebrating a Passover meal with his disciples - 1 Corinthians 11 describes a meal, and the disciples broke bread together, they did not wait for an ordained priest to do it for them.

Stabat Mater said:

Even if we were to allow and encourage female preachers which we really aren't nor should be doing, the priests role typically exceeds the role of a preacher and none of the women you mention in your eisegesis (not eisegesis not exegesis) ever acted as priests, not in the temple in Jerusalem nor in the early church.

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Just because there were no female priests in the temple in Jerusalem does not prove that God cannot call women to serve him in this way today.
I mentioned those women because some say that we have to take 1 Tim 2:12 literally AND apply it today. Yet women taught and proclaimed God's word in both the Old and New Testaments - which is evidence against a literal interpretation of that verse. Priscilla also taught Apollos.

Stabat Mater said:

Your position is fueled by politics and not theology my friend,

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No; women speaking God's word is entirely Scriptural.
And God is calling, and has always called, women to serve him in this way.
There are many women clergy and bishops today. God allows them to minister, teach, lead worship, bless and so on. People who become Christians under women preachers remain saved - their salvation is not invalid because they heard the Gospel from a woman. People who are blessed, challenged or moved when a woman preaches remain blessed, challenged or moved.
Women preach the same Gospel as men.

Michael Collum said:

I was noticing how in previous posts you said you didn't sin, and that we haven't met a Christian if we met a Christian who sinned. However, anyone who says they do not sin calls God a liar. I was pointing out obvious sins in the way you were communicating because you claimed earlier that you did not sin which is obviously a lie.

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Is it anyone who says they "have not sinned" (in the past tense there in 1 John 1:10 ) which is that which makes him a liar (and his word not in them) since we know "all have sinned" as it confirms the same in Romans 3:23 (even as sin reigning by the one man) versus the one who cannot sin (continue in it) or the one who has ceased from sin because of the grace received which gives such persons dominion over sin? It is written various ways. Although the one verse (the one you might be speaking of there) seems to be speaking of the same in the past tense (which further confirms Romans 3:23)

For example, it speaks of having no sin (or saying you do not) when sin is in your members (presently), then it speaks of saying you have not sinned (past tense ) since it confirms "all have" sinned. But elsewhere it speaks of one who cannot sin, or who has ceased from sinning etc. Spoken of a bit differently.

Stabat Mater said:

Your position is fueled by politics and not theology my friend, but seeing how this thread and forum is an ecco chamber for liberals I'm not the one holding the power of definition in here my efforts to teach orthodoxy in here will most likely be in vain.

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as is yours

Philip_B said:

as is yours

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How so? I'm referring to church practice and you're not, how is it even remotely the same??

Gotcha love the general heresy, oops I meant general theology section of the forums...

Philip_B said:

So I now understand that your are intentionally engaging in victim blaming. The moral weekness of your position is impossible for any thinking christian to embrace.
I would encourage you to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

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Folks have the choice of relying on God or trying to abide by this world's protectors.
How's that working out?
Which group is walking humbly before God?

Phil W said:

I'm just going back to the OP.

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The OP has nothing to do with rape.

Phil W said:

Prove it.

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You're asking me to prove that Christians are raped? This was just the first google result I came up with, but really, this is not a difficult fact to establish: Hidden Wounds—Christians Say Rape Is 'Common' Persecution Method Against Women - Open Doors USA

Phil W said:

According to you God's protections are insufficient.
That mistaken idea doesn't work along side of faith.

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God never promised us protection from human brutality. Quite the opposite!

Phil W said:

Derail of topic...

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Not at all. We are, after all, talking about women in ministry and what we might bring to the role; and I've pointed out something essential for healthy pastoral ministry which women often know better from our lived experience (as opposed to theoretical learning).

Phil W said:

I guess that lets the unsanctified off the hook.

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It puts the rapist on the hook. And that's who belongs there.

Paidiske said:

The OP has nothing to do with rape.

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Sure it does.
You are a woman preacher who won't prescribe the protections written of in the bible.
That disqualifies you from the position you usurped.

You're asking me to prove that Christians are raped? This was just the first google result I came up with, but really, this is not a difficult fact to establish: Hidden Wounds—Christians Say Rape Is 'Common' Persecution Method Against Women - Open Doors USA

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Were any of your "victims" asked if they commit sin in order to ascertain the truth of their claim to be Christians?

God never promised us protection from human brutality. Quite the opposite!

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If the "us" you refer to is women preachers...you are probably right.
If it women in Christ...you are wholly mistaken.