The Problem of Evil.(Theodicy)

What is your view on Evil?

  • Leibniz. "Best of All Possible Worlds." Evil as bad taste.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Augustine. "Original Sin." Evil as the absence of Good.

    Votes: 5 83.3%
  • Plotinus. "Heart of Darkness." Evil as deprivation.

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • No Evil.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6

Ken-1122

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In regards to good and evil, free will is merely the ability to make decisions. However, Evil exists to make a choice possible. Therefore, a world void of evil would be a world void of any moral choices. Thus, rendering it inferior.

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A couple of questions before you drop the mike,
1) Will Evil be allowed in Heaven?
2) What happens to Heaven when it eventually becomes contaminated with evil?
 
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A couple of questions before you drop the mike,
1) Will Evil be allowed in Heaven?
2) What happens to Heaven when it eventually becomes contaminated with evil?
According to scripture, there will be no evil in heaven because God's holiness will not allow it. Which is why a savior is needed in the first place. Without the imputed righteousness of Christ, we cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Second, there will be no evil because our glorified bodies will not be corrupted with the sin nature that is inherited from Adam.

An all-powerful God could, for example, separate good persons from evil ones according to what persons freely choose. Those who love God will be separated from those who do not. Those who desire the good but are hindered by evil will no longer have their good purposes frustrated. And those who do evil and are hampered by good influences will no longer be nagged by the proddings of good. Each, whether in heaven or hell, will have it according to their free choice. In this way God’s victory over evil would not violate free choice.

Not only can a theistic God defeat evil, but he will do it. We know this because he is all good and would want to defeat evil. And because he is all-powerful and is able to defeat evil. Therefore, he will do it. The guarantee that evil will be overcome is the nature of the theistic God.

Can I drop the mic now?
 
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Evil is a judgment call people make about actions we find extremely bad. It only exists in the context of human thought; get rid of human thought and you get rid of evil.
Or you can redefine what "Evil" is and suggest that it doesn't actually exist.
 
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So then God doesn't have free will.
I don't know. Perhaps that you be one of the many limitations God has due to his nature. Technically, because God is the source of all goodness and that "evil" is defined as anything separate and apart from God's goodness, God cannot choose to separate Himself from Himself by choosing evil.
 
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Ken-1122

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According to scripture, there will be no evil in heaven because God's holiness will not allow it. Which is why a savior is needed in the first place. Without the imputed righteousness of Christ, we cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Second, there will be no evil because our glorified bodies will not be corrupted with the sin nature that is inherited from Adam.
So does that mean Heaven will be inferior because choice will not be allowed there?

An all-powerful God could, for example, separate good persons from evil ones according to what persons freely choose. Those who love God will be separated from those who do not. Those who desire the good but are hindered by evil will no longer have their good purposes frustrated. And those who do evil and are hampered by good influences will no longer be nagged by the proddings of good. Each, whether in heaven or hell, will have it according to their free choice. In this way God’s victory over evil would not violate free choice.
But before you said without evil, choice is not possible! Are you changing it now?

Not only can a theistic God defeat evil, but he will do it. We know this because he is all good and would want to defeat evil. And because he is all-powerful and is able to defeat evil. Therefore, he will do it. The guarantee that evil will be overcome is the nature of the theistic God.
Choice or not, why didn’t God defeat evil before creating man; thus allowing him to live in a world without evil? Kinda like in Heaven?

Can I drop the mic now?
Not yet; answer the above first, then we’ll see.

Thanx
 
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Moral Orel

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I don't know. Perhaps that you be one of the many limitations God has due to his nature. Technically, because God is the source of all goodness and that "evil" is defined as anything separate and apart from God's goodness, God cannot choose to separate Himself from Himself by choosing evil.
Okay, let's run with that for a bit. What's so great about free will if God doesn't have it and He's the greatest thing ever?
 
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So does that mean Heaven will be inferior because choice will not be allowed there?
But before you said without evil, choice is not possible! Are you changing it now?
Choice or not, why didn’t God defeat evil before creating man; thus allowing him to live in a world without evil? Kinda like in Heaven?
Thanx
For the record, this is getting beyond the scope of biblical scripture and into theological assumptions so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I never said that we wouldn't have free will in heaven. But I really do not know if there will be free will in heaven or not. Perhaps we will still have free will. However, if nobody has the desire for evil and their is nothing tempting anyone to choose evil it seems as though that choosing evil in heaven possible in theory, but not actually.
Okay, let's run with that for a bit. What's so great about free will if God doesn't have it and He's the greatest thing ever?
As I have stated before, one of the limitations of God is that He cannot do anything contrary to his nature. God cannot make a rock so heavy He cannot lift, He cannot affirm something to be true and false at the same time, and He cannot by his nature choose evil. Not because He doesn't have free will. Rather because it would be a contradiction to His nature. Just because you cannot make a round square or a married bachelor it does not mean that you do not have a free will.
 
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Ken-1122

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For the record, this is getting beyond the scope of biblical scripture and into theological assumptions so take my opinions with a grain of salt. I never said that we wouldn't have free will in heaven.
You sorta did. First you said sin is necessary for free will/choice, then you said sin will not be allowed in Heaven. How is that different than saying there is no freewill in Heaven?

But I really do not know if there will be free will in heaven or not. Perhaps we will still have free will. However, if nobody has the desire for evil and their is nothing tempting anyone to choose evil it seems as though that choosing evil in heaven possible in theory, but not actually.
If getting rid of the temptation to do evil and the desire for evil is enough to prevent people from choosing evil, Why didn’t God get rid of the temptation and desire in the first place? Why didn’t God get rid of those things before creating man?
 
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Moral Orel

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As I have stated before, one of the limitations of God is that He cannot do anything contrary to his nature. God cannot make a rock so heavy He cannot lift, He cannot affirm something to be true and false at the same time, and He cannot by his nature choose evil. Not because He doesn't have free will. Rather because it would be a contradiction to His nature. Just because you cannot make a round square or a married bachelor it does not mean that you do not have a free will.
That still means God doesn't have free will. A rock can't choose to do anything other than it's nature of being a rock, and thus it doesn't have free will.

If God gave us such a nature that we couldn't choose to do evil because it would contradict that nature, what would be the downside if that is the perfect way to be?
 
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You sorta did. First you said sin is necessary for free will/choice, then you said sin will not be allowed in Heaven. How is that different than saying there is no freewill in Heaven?
No. I said that the existence of evil was necessary to make a choice possible. Not that sin was necessary for free will. Without the existence of evil, or the desire to commit evil, sin would not exist in spite of having free will. If free will exists in heaven, it would be a choice that none will be willing to make. Just because nobody would be willing to make a certain choice does not mean they do not have free will. Again I say, although the it would be theoretically possible for people to choose to commit evil in heaven, it would be actually impossible for evil to exist in heaven. In regards to your second question, the honest answer is that I do not know. I am not God. We could also ask why God created the earth at all. Why not just a heaven? I believe that God wants people to make a choice to either love Him or rebel against him. If you have not read my essay that I posted, I suggest doing so because it touched on this with the "wind up doll" analogy. Basically, God wanted people to make the choice to love God in a way that is meaningful. Once the choice is made, after death, the purpose for evil then becomes obsolete.
 
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That still means God doesn't have free will. A rock can't choose to do anything other than it's nature of being a rock, and thus it doesn't have free will.

If God gave us such a nature that we couldn't choose to do evil because it would contradict that nature, what would be the downside if that is the perfect way to be?
Then you could argue that nobody has free will because we cannot choose to be rocks.
 
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That doesn't really follow from what I said. Nor does it attempt to answer my question.
I am pretty sure that I discussed this in my research paper. But let be try to explain it in another way. Lets use light for an example. Darkness isn't a thing that actually exists, rather, it is an absence of light. Because of the physics of light, it is impossible for light to be absent from light to become darkness. Instead, darkness would be exposed to the light and would no longer be "darkness". God and His goodness works the same way. God is like a source of goodness and, like light any light source, His goodness is emitted from Him.

Lets say all of a sudden your body became the most intense light source in the universe. If this was the case, neither darkness could be in your presence or you could be in the presence of darkness. Even if you wanted too, you couldn't unless you reduced the intensity of your light by covering your body or stop emitting light altogether. However, even if you completely encapsulated your body so that none of your light is touched by others, your body would still never be touched by darkness. And there are biblical examples this. According to the Bible, it is impossible for human beings to see God in His full glory and live. As a result, God would "veil" his glory from humans.
 
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Moral Orel

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I am pretty sure that I discussed this in my research paper. But let be try to explain it in another way. Lets use light for an example. Darkness isn't a thing that actually exists, rather, it is an absence of light. Because of the physics of light, it is impossible for light to be absent from light to become darkness. Instead, darkness would be exposed to the light and would no longer be "darkness". God and His goodness works the same way. God is like a source of goodness and, like light any light source, His goodness is emitted from Him.

Lets say all of a sudden your body became the most intense light source in the universe. If this was the case, neither darkness could be in your presence or you could be in the presence of darkness. Even if you wanted too, you couldn't unless you reduced the intensity of your light by covering your body or stop emitting light altogether. However, even if you completely encapsulated your body so that none of your light is touched by others, your body would still never be touched by darkness. And there are biblical examples this. According to the Bible, it is impossible for human beings to see God in His full glory and live. As a result, God would "veil" his glory from humans.
That still doesn't attempt to answer my question. What's the downside?

Let's try being more specific. Can God choose to hate me?
 
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Ken-1122

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No. I said that the existence of evil was necessary to make a choice possible. Not that sin was necessary for free will. Without the existence of evil, or the desire to commit evil, sin would not exist in spite of having free will.
If free will is possible without the existence of evil, why did God allow the existence of evil and create us with the desire to commit evil knowing it would lead to sin?
If free will exists in heaven, it would be a choice that none will be willing to make. Just because nobody would be willing to make a certain choice does not mean they do not have free will. Again I say, although the it would be theoretically possible for people to choose to commit evil in heaven, it would be actually impossible for evil to exist in heaven.
How come God didn’t set up such a system here on Earth?
In regards to your second question, the honest answer is that I do not know. I am not God. We could also ask why God created the earth at all. Why not just a heaven?
I agree; and thank-you for your honesty. These type of questions is why I was unable to remain Christian; just too many things about it that didn’t make sense to me.
 
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Let's try being more specific. Can God choose to hate me?
Yes, theoretically He could choose to hate because he has free will and is sovereign. However, hating His creation, although possible in theory, is impossible in actuality. But this doesn't mean that an Omnibenevolent being is incapable of hate or that hate is evil in every sense. God actually does hate some things. In particular, God hates sin like a mother hates the venomous snake that is about to strike her child. Another question is whether an omniscient being is capable of emotion or if biblical examples of His "emotions" are allegory for His justice and mercy?
 
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If free will is possible without the existence of evil, why did God allow the existence of evil and create us with the desire to commit evil knowing it would lead to sin?

How come God didn’t set up such a system here on Earth?

I agree; and thank-you for your honesty. These type of questions is why I was unable to remain Christian; just too many things about it that didn’t make sense to me.
Here is an excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics that I believe addresses your question.

If God knew evil would occur, why did he create it? God was free to create or not to create. Why did he choose to create a world he knew would fall? Theists believed God is all-knowing, all-good, and free. As all-knowing, God foresaw evil. As free, he could have avoided creating the world. But this conflicts with God as all-good, for such a God must have had a good purpose for creating a world he knew would fall. Why then did he create it?

There were other better alternatives open to God. He could have not created at all. He could have created a nonmoral world where no sin could occur. He could have created a free world where no one would have chosen to sin. He could have created a world where sin occurred but where everyone was ultimately saved. Any one of these worlds would have been better than the world conceived by the orthodox Christian theist, where evil occurs and where not everyone will be saved in the end.The problem takes this form:

1. God could have chosen a better alternative by: (a) not creating at all; (b) not creating a free world; (c) creating a free world that would not sin; (d) creating a world that sinned but would all be saved.

2. But God did not choose one of these better alternatives.

3. Therefore God did not do his best.

4. But to do less than his best is an evil for God.

5. Therefore, no all-perfect God exists.

Some theists challenge the fourth premise, arguing that God does not have to do his best; he merely has to do good. And what he did in creating this world was good, even if there could have been something better. But assuming, for the argument, that God must do his best, is any other alternative really better than this world? Theists say No.

A non-world is not better than some world. Nothing is not better than something. This is a classic category mistake. Something and nothing have nothing in common, so they cannot be compared. It is not even like comparing apples and oranges, since they both are fruit. It is like comparing apples and non-apples, insisting that non-apples taste better.

A non-free world is not morally better than a free world. A non-free world is a non-moral world, since free will is necessary for morality. A non-moral world cannot be morally better than a moral world. Since a non-free world is not a moral world, there is no moral basis for comparison. This too is a category mistake.

A free world where no one sins or even a free world where everyone sins and then gets saved is conceivable but it may not be achievable. As long as everyone is really free, it is always possible that someone will refuse to do the good. Of course, God could force everyone to do good, but then they would not be free. Forced freedom is not freedom at all. Since God is love, he cannot force himself on anyone against their will. Forced love is not love; it is rape. And God is not a divine rapist. Love must work persuasively but not coercively. Hence, in every conceivable free world someone would choose to do evil, so a perfect evil-free world may not be possible.

A world where sin never materializes is conceivable but it may not be the most desirable morally. If evil is not permitted, then it cannot be defeated. Like automobiles, a tested world is better than an untested one. Or, to put it another way, no boxer can beat an opponent without getting into the ring. God may have permitted evil in order to defeat it. If evil is not allowed, then the higher virtues cannot be attained. No pain, no gain. Tribulation works patience. There is no way to experience the joy of forgiveness without allowing the fall into sin. So, a world where evil is not defeated and the higher goods attained would not be the best world achievable. Therefore, while a world where sin does not occur is theoretically conceivable, it would be morally inferior.

No one has demonstrated that any alternative world is morally better than the one we have. Hence, no antitheist can show that God did not create the best world, even given the privation of good. This, of course, does not mean that the theist is committed to the belief that this present world is the best world that can be achieved. God is not finished yet, and Scripture promises that something better will be achieved. The theist’s assumption is that this world is the best way to the best world achievable.
 
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Moral Orel

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Yes, theoretically He could choose to hate because he has free will and is sovereign. However, hating His creation, although possible in theory, is impossible in actuality. But this doesn't mean that an Omnibenevolent being is incapable of hate or that hate is evil in every sense. God actually does hate some things. In particular, God hates sin like a mother hates the venomous snake that is about to strike her child.
So that's a "No, God can't choose to hate me". Is His love for me inferior in some way to the love I'm supposed to feel for Him even though He can't choose?
Another question is whether an omniscient being is capable of emotion or if biblical examples of His "emotions" are allegory for His justice and mercy?
I picked "hate" as a specific example because "God is love". Are you saying that God wants us to love Him, but He might be incapable of love? That seems pretty out there as a theory.
 
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