Please explain if no one is predestined

Knee V

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Also, every historic Christian group agrees with what Christ said in that passage. Apart from God's grace enabling us, we would never come to Christ.

However:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
....
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
-- John 6

So God has worked "enablement" into a person before he chooses whether or not to accept Christ, and if God has not already done that "enablement," then the person cannot choose Christ.

Now, I don't know how much of a conclusion can be drawn from that, or that one can be drawn as far as Reformed Theology attempts to draw it.

I see the purpose of those statements as an encouragement to evangelists that there will be people who will respond to the gospel, and an encouragement to those who have accepted Christ that God's favor has been planned for them from eternity past, reliable and not fickle.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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The text you provide (Eph 1:11) does not state that God has "ordained" all things. It does state that God has a "purpose" and that He "works all things according to the counsel of his will". "Working all things" is NOT "ordaining" all things.

God worked in all the events of the narrative of Jonah, but God NEVER ordains rebellion against Himself.

If you believe that God controls the will of man (by His decree), then God is also the author of all that man does.

The meaning of Eph 1:11 is that God has predestined those "in Christ" to "obtained an inheritance", and the He will work in all the events of their lives for that "purpose"

In Jesus, God has united all believers under the one Head.

Now Paul continues, "In him, in whom we have been chosen, having been foreordained according to him who works all things after his will."

In Jesus, an allotment was made by God. The thought that we were chosen for God’s inheritance can't be said to be foreign to the connection. We're chosen in being foreordained according to God's purpose. In God, our election unto faith rests.

God’s designs don't fail, his purpose is operative in all things after God's will's counsel. In all things, his power shapes all affairs, according to a counsel. The determination to carry out the plan was preceded by deliberation.
 
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sungaunga

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Hence, all the verses work in harmony providing a "whosoever" invitation, yet only being effectual to those who come, by faith.

It's time to start examining the traditions you're bringing in to the text. Adding theological import into the term "whosoever" simply demonstrates one's traditions infecting their exegesis of the text. The fact is the word "whosoever" in our English translations is really a formulation of two Greek terms πᾶς ὁ (pas ho) which literally translates as "all the...".

When you say whosoever, you're automatically inserting an idea that is not there. The literal translation is, in order that everyone believing in Him, all the believing one. There's no indefinite relative there that just simply throws it out and says there can be no identification here of who it is we're talking about. The participle, the believing one means, all believing one whether Jew or gentile. The only ones to receive eternal life and do not perish are the ones believing. Well, who are the ones believing? That is an issue John 3:16 does not address and is answered in John 6, if your'e willing to listen.

I think there's a consistent understanding of John 3:16 and the Gospel of John and it does not require one to read into the word, world, a universalistic interpretation. I understand that's the way it's been taught to you, and myself as well.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Again, your assumption that is made beyond the text is that every person has the ability to believe. The text isn't addressing that. It's not even talking about it. Non of that is relevant as a denial of an existence of an elect people.

John 17:9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours

Here, Jesus makes a clear distinction between the world and those who are given to Him by the Father, the elect.
 
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Dr. Jack

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It's time to start examining the traditions you're bringing in to the text. Adding theological import into the term "whosoever" simply demonstrates one's traditions infecting their exegesis of the text. The fact is the word "whosoever" in our English translations is really a formulation of two Greek terms πᾶς ὁ (pas ho) which literally translates as "all the...".

When you say whosoever, you're automatically inserting an idea that is not there. The literal translation is, in order that everyone believing in Him, all the believing one. There's no indefinite relative there that just simply throws it out and says there can be no identification here of who it is we're talking about. The participle, the believing one means, all believing one whether Jew or gentile. The only ones to receive eternal life and do not perish are the ones believing. Well, who are the ones believing? That is an issue John 3:16 does not address and is answered in John 6, if your'e willing to listen.

I think there's a consistent understanding of John 3:16 and the Gospel of John and it does not require one to read into the word, world, a universalistic interpretation. I understand that's the way it's been taught to you, and myself as well.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Again, your assumption that is made beyond the text is that every person has the ability to believe. The text isn't addressing that. It's not even talking about it. Non of that is relevant as a denial of an existence of an elect people.

John 17:9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours

Here, Jesus makes a clear distinction between the world and those who are given to Him by the Father, the elect.
You say John 6 answers the question of who is believing ... could you be more specific?
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Just what it says. The invitation to be conformed to the image of His Son is an invitation to all believers.

How difficult is that to understand?

But since the reformed have a totally different view of God's call and election, I understand that this would not be easy to understand.
I understand that you have to twist the meaning to avoid what’s clearly taught.
And how would one see any twisting to what I posted? Could you please specify?

I’ll spell it out. God foreknew people. It doesn’t say that He foreknew actions of people. It’s people He foreknew. Those He foreknew He had a plan for them. He was going to conform them to the image of His Son. He then called them, justified them (because called people believe), and then glorified them. We are, in a real sense, glorified because we are seated at the right hand of God with Christ.
Of course God foreknew people. I don't know why anyone wouldn't know that I know that.

But, here's the question. Are all who have believed conformed to the image of His Son? I mean, while they are still living. Just to be clear.

So it works when you take it for what it says and not try to read synergistic theology into it.
Could you please explain where this so-called synergism exists in my theology? Those who throw charges should be able to back up their charges.

Thanks.
 
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sdowney717

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Simply, salvation is of the Lord.
The reason you believe and someone else does not believe is because God made you born again.
Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God as His child. The flesh is at war with God, the flesh will not believe in Christ. So you must first become a spiritually alive person created by God making you born of God, so then His child.

Romans 8, all those born of God walk according to the Spirit, they live according to the Spirit. The US folk Paul speaks about are His people who God made born again in the Spirit by the Spirit for the Spirit.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
 
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Dr. Jack

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Simply, salvation is of the Lord.
The reason you believe and someone else does not believe is because God made you born again.
Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God as His child. The flesh is at war with God, the flesh will not believe in Christ. So you must first become a spiritually alive person created by God making you born of God, so then His child.

Romans 8, all those born of God walk according to the Spirit, they live according to the Spirit. The US folk Paul speaks about are His people who God made born again in the Spirit by the Spirit for the Spirit.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians

1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians to the saints at the Church of Corinth ... yet he says, they are carnal, living according to the desires of the flesh. So much so that ...

5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 1 Corinthians
 
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sdowney717

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3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians

1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians

Paul wrote 1 Corinthians to the saints at the Church of Corinth ... yet he says, they are carnal, living according to the desires of the flesh. So much so that ...

5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 1 Corinthians

'even as unto babes in Christ.'
There is no conflict here like your suggesting. They were babes in Christ living in some fleshly sin, but they were still destined to be saved. Saved persons who live in sin, are going to suffer some losses, even to sickness and death, but not spiritual death. Paul tells the church to commit that person to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus.
 
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Dr. Jack

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Simply, salvation is of the Lord.
The reason you believe and someone else does not believe is because God made you born again.
Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God as His child. The flesh is at war with God, the flesh will not believe in Christ. So you must first become a spiritually alive person created by God making you born of God, so then His child.

Romans 8, all those born of God walk according to the Spirit, they live according to the Spirit. The US folk Paul speaks about are His people who God made born again in the Spirit by the Spirit for the Spirit.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
In post #486 you stated ...
Simply, salvation is of the Lord.
The reason you believe and someone else does not believe is because God made you born again.
Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God as His child. The flesh is at war with God, the flesh will not believe in Christ. So you must first become a spiritually alive person created by God making you born of God, so then His child.

The sentence "So you must first become a spiritually alive person created by God making you born of God, so then His child" indicates that you believe that the "spirit" of man is 'dead', therefore not being able to be saved prior to regeneration. Hence, you are saying that regeneration precedes salvation.

Is this your position?
 
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sdowney717

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In post #486 you stated ...


The sentence "So you must first become a spiritually alive person created by God making you born of God, so then His child" indicates that you believe that the "spirit" of man is 'dead', therefore not being able to be saved prior to regeneration. Hence, you are saying that regeneration precedes salvation.

Is this your position?
Of course. Jesus tells the man who wants to bury his father this.
Matthew 8:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
 
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Dr. Jack

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Of course. Jesus tells the man who wants to bury his father this.
Matthew 8:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel

This clearly states that the "soul"(of man) dies (is separated from God), not the "spirit". Since the spirit is yet functioning, God still uses the spirit of man to communicate to him during the preaching of the word.

10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans
 
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Gr8Grace

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What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?
Pretty simple. Ourselves.

Mark 6:6~~King James Bible
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Pretty hard for God to marvel, be surprised or amazed by unbelief...............If He causes unbelief.

Heck, He even has His saved, born again Children covered when we are faithless or unbelieving.

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
 
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Rescued One

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Pretty simple. Ourselves.

Mark 6:6~~King James Bible
And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Pretty hard for God to marvel, be surprised or amazed by unbelief...............If He causes unbelief.

Heck, He even has His saved, born again Children covered when we are faithless or unbelieving.

2 Tim 2:13~~New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

WHY on earth would anyone of any persuasion think God caused unbelief? People aren't born with faith nor can any of us create it in ourselves.

Romans 3
10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


  • Ecclesiastes 7:29 - “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
  • Romans 5:7-8 - For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
  • Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned… by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners
  • Psalm 143:2 - Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
  • Romans 11:32 - For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (c.f. Galatians 3:22)
  • 2 Chronicles 6:36 - “there is no one who does not sin”
The reason people don't come to God:

John 3
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Mark 7
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

  • John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.”
 
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sdowney717

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18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel

This clearly states that the "soul"(of man) dies (is separated from God), not the "spirit". Since the spirit is yet functioning, God still uses the spirit of man to communicate to him during the preaching of the word.

10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans

Your using a old covenant scripture speaking about the old covenant nation under covenant with God to describe how the new covenant works?? The old covenant has passed away and is 'dead' itself, no longer in effect, being obsoleted. Your pulling doctrine out of thin air.

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

In the New Covenant, it is taught you were dead and Christ makes you alive who were dead. The New Covenant doctrine supersedes and actually explains properly the doctrine of being born again.

Ephesians 2:1
[ By Grace Through Faith ] And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Hebrews 8
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
 
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Gr8Grace

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WHY on earth would anyone of any persuasion think God caused unbelief?
Because they have been duped by satan and his world.

I am sure you have heard of calvinism or reformed theology.......unbelief is caused by God in their false system or false theology.

And they will kick, scream, scratch and bite to try to fix all their contradictions on this truth......but it is the logical conclusion to their false theology.
 
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Because they have been duped by satan and his world.

I am sure you have heard of calvinism or reformed theology.......unbelief is caused by God in their false system or false theology.

And they will kick, scream, scratch and bite to try to fix all their contradictions on this truth......but it is the logical conclusion to their false theology.

You obviously don't know the God Who set me free from Satan's power and will keep me in His love until the day He takes me home! Unbelief exists because Adam sinned and people are under the power of Satan.
 
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Gr8Grace

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You obviously don't know the God Who set me free from Satan's power and will keep me in His love until the day He takes me home!
I was saved by the Lord Jesus Christ(03/03/03) and have come to know Him quite well since then.
Unbelief exists because Adam sinned and people are under the power of Satan.
Why would you think I would argue with this?

Calvinist/reformed folks think God CAUSES unbelief.
 
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Rescued One

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I was saved by the Lord Jesus Christ(03/03/03) and have come to know Him quite well since then.
Why would you think I would argue with this?

Calvinist/reformed folks think God CAUSES unbelief.

I hate it when people assume they know what another group of people thinks. Only God is omniscient. A cousin of my late husband tried to tell me that all black men beat their wives!

arghh!


Please stop pretending to know something you don't know. Thank you.
 
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Gr8Grace

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I hate it when people assume they know what another group of people thinks. Only God is omniscient. A cousin of my late husband tried to tell me that all black men beat their wives!

arghh!


Please stop pretending to know something you don't know. Thank you.
I should inform you..............I was 'saved' out of the calvin/reformed theology. So yeah, I know.

It's amazing to hear and watch people say, "Don't assume what another group says."........When I was in the 'group' for years.arghh!
 
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JLB777

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What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?


“Faith”, comes by hearing God.


We receive faith when God speaks to us, moves upon us, leads us, inspires us, whether directly or indirectly through others, such as a prophet or one sent by Him to preach the Gospel.


Every sinner who hears the Gospel, has faith.


However, faith comes to us inactive, dormant or as James says “dead”.


Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience, in order for faith to be made active and alive, as well as complete, and able to function to produce the intended divine result.


This is why it’s called the obedience of faith.



But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Example:


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


“By faith” means that God spoke to a person and that person obeyed Him.


again


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


This event actually foreshadowed the Gospel, and how God would justify the Gentiles “by faith”.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8




JLB
 
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