And outside of those pictures within narratives, our language just can't understand the circumstances and it's impossible to magnify the ends that justify the means because if you go backwards far enough, east never meets west! Hence the good news that the blind can't see what the deaf hear as contradictory to the lame man with a prosthetic leg! Which reveals perfect knowledge hidden under a rock!
Man that's.... deep!
Like as in my 10th grade biology teacher used to say when students attempted to give him a line of B.S.: "I didn't bring my boots today!"
Funny, but let us give grace for grace, you listen carefully and I’ll shut-up.
God did say conclusively that you deserve wrath. That's in the Scripture.
Yes, I have already agreed multiple times that I am deserving of God’s wrath
according to Romans 1. And even though I was not even born yet during those times, I do believe that humility requires that I should not count Romans 1 as not pertaining to me. Still I am also aware that, according to Ephesians 1, God has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Nor should I discount that as pertaining to me.. And therefore we read Ephesians 2:3 which says I once was a child of wrath but I am no longer. There are some things that are true today that are not true tomorrow, such as the number of hairs on my head. That’s what I mean by narratives within narratives which was so deep that you needed boots.
So when you ask me if I deserve wrath, my best honest answer in view of these scriptures is that it’s ultimately up to God to say conclusively. And I feel safe in not presuming either way.
If the worst sin you could ever see in your life is bad sportsmanship the first time you played a game; you are either one step down from Jesus Christ Himself, or you are extremely deceived by your own vanity.
Actually I do not recall displaying any bad sportsmanship when I first experienced vanity. I didn’t even understand at the time why that feeling was upon my heart. And I also told you that it is only now, or rather at the time in my life when the Holy Spirit revealed it to me, that I see it was vanity, and that this vanity was the cause behind all iniquity and sin in my life.
So there’s no question that I have been deceived by vanity, and that through vanity there are indeed sins that I have committed in my lifetime which I have also already admitted to. But I credit the guidance that comes through the Holy Spirit for being able to see that, so that I can be truly thankful to God for His wisdom.
The answer as to why you experience that darkness is because you are a sinner. Congratulations, you're correct. Roman's points that out!
Romans infers that mankind a long time ago took for granted that they could handle the knowledge of evil and it not corrupt them. It is of vain imagination to think yourself to be wise by saying humanity just did not see God within themselves. Having the Spirit of God indwelling a believer is different than believing you possess your own divinity. So of course when you believe you possess your own divinity, you worship yourself. And of course when you worship yourself, you can't be thankful to God for anything - now can you? So of course you shock yourself when you display poor sportsmanship when playing a game and your own darkness is made known to you.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head - that's EXACTLY what Romans is talking about!
I cannot tell if you’re being facetious, so I am not sure you’re agreeing or making fun.
Yes, this invokes God's wrath. When individuals fail to see their own pride; God does give them over to the lust of their own hearts. But that's not payment for their sin; payment for their sin comes on the other side of eternity in the lake of fire.
Paul said it was a “recompense” for not esteeming God as God, which makes perfect sense given that God humbles those who exalt themselves, and exalts those who humble themselves. Paul did not say it was a punishment for sin, nor do I believe that he is implying sin entered into mankind in the scenario he is describing.
Therefore the truth is; we never became what God is not because we were never what God is in the first place! And those who through their own pride think that they are, become more enslaved to their carnal will. Especially when they fail to see they were enslaved to their own carnal will from the first conscious thought they ever had. That's what "total depravity" means in "theological speak". And when that happens yes; they misread this passage!
The first Adam was indeed made out of the earth, but his sentience and life was due to the breath of God, or as John 1 describes the Word of God. So I would not say that the first conscience thought was already enslaved to the carnal will in regards to immorality. If I may point out as pertains to this matter, scripture indicates that mankind was made corruptible concerning these things, and therefore not already corrupted to begin with.
I must accept total depravity as there being nothing good in the flesh, but man is also a soul with a spirit. Here’s a statement you made that I think is said well,
“Having the Spirit of God indwelling a believer is different than believing you possess your own divinity.” I do believe that the recompense described in Romans 1 is meant to teach/demonstrate, and hopefully learn, that apart from God there is nothing good/righteous in us.
So as pertains to Romans 1, I do not agree that
“we never became what God is not because we were never what God is in the first place!”
There can be no good reason to boast or be prideful concerning the wisdom God gives each person, and it is needful that we give thanks to God in all these things which are His attributes in us for our own sake. We could not take for granted those good things if we never had them to begin with.
I also personally believe that Satan’s vanity is the product of taking God’s gifts for granted in vanity likewise. I imagine that for Satan, vanity first began as taking God’s gifts for granted in small increments that gradually grew over time into what we could consider as becoming vain. Certainly Satan’s words in scripture reveal a disdain for creatures created lower than himself. Pride usually goes before a fall, so in many instances we don’t see the fall coming, wherefore vanity is a blindness. I imagine that as humans, not only can we forget where we have fallen from, but we also can forget from where we have been delivered from. This is why the creature is never the same as God.
"For the creature (meaning the creation, not humanity) became subject to vanity. (Who's vanity? Human vanity!) not willingly (it wasn't the dog, cat, snail or T-Rex that disobeyed God - it was Adam!) but by Divine providence of Him who has subjected the same in hope. It was Jesus who create Adam in God's own image, for the point of Jesus ultimately being incarnated in Adam's likeness so He could accomplish what Adam could not!
No human being is "involuntarily vain". They only believe they are because the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
I agree that the heart is deceitful and wicked, but only after it has become vain. Romans 1 says their foolish heart was darkened by thinking themselves wise.
In view of the scripture and it’s context in Romans 8, but even more so from firsthand experience, I really don’t see how you can say vanity is voluntary, particularly since vanity is a blindness. When exactly did you volunteer to be vain?
You are adding to scripture what was not there. I do not believe that scripture is implying that the creation was made subject to “human” vanity, for it clearly says just simply to vanity itself. Are you saying vanity is subject to you? If so, isn’t that vanity to say you’re not subject to vanity? While a rock, or a tree, or a river, or a cloud, is creation, they could not be subject to vanity, since it requires a certain level of intellect to entertain vanity, and a certain level of wisdom to see through the imaginations that entertain vanity. Since through vanity I deceive myself into despising losing, then why would I volunteer to do that? Hence vanity had to exist in me involuntarily even as I testify that the Holy Spirit had to enlighten me as to how and why it is there.
We as believers are part of the creation as well. Romans 8 indicates that we moan in ourselves awaiting the adoption along with the rest of creation, therefore we suffer the same travail that all of the creation does.
Moreover, I believe that vanity began in Satan as detailed above, and I believe that God knew vanity would manifest in the creation. I see the incident in the garden as the occasion where in a state of innocence vanity was introduced to mankind.
I see Eve beguiled through the suggestion that she could increase her stature, which indicates vanity being introduced into her reasoning. I see Adam second guessing himself in a lack of self confidence in becoming malleable to Eve. I see Cain experiencing jealousy which I doubt he enjoyed and would choose to feel. So long as we are comparing ourselves in value with others, we are subject to vanity.
You are correct in saying that Adam could never accomplish what Jesus could because he was never meant to, but Adam’s disobedience means to me that he was at least intimidated by or through vanity, when confronted with choosing between believing in his self or Eve, while Jesus never displayed such apprehension.
I agree that vanity is deceptive since it imagines a false imagery of god that is vain through a presumption presented as a concept. But according to scripture man did not invent this imagery, Satan did. Which is why I believe Satan is called the ruler of this world and also the god of this world, who has deceived the whole world.
Respectfully, your claim that no human experiences vanity involuntarily, does not appear to be taking into account that vanity began with Satan and it is his works that Jesus came to destroy, and only Jesus can destroy them.
Outside of atonement, mankind could never be "with God"; so thus he'd never be righteous to begin with!
In the big picture in twenty-twenty hindsight and generally speaking, I would agree. But let us not forget that there was Enoch and Elijah who never saw death and yet were transformed. So righteousness is really all about having faith in, and subsequently believing God. For scripture says that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. By faith Abel made a better offering and he was counted as righteous. Adam and Eve believed God up until the serpent caused them to question God’s trustworthiness. As for people who do not believe God, then I think it would be safe to assume that God would see that as unrighteousness.
I am not a cynic and I find cynicism to be unreasonable. I figure that if Jesus said that God was seeking for those who worshipped Him in Truth, then there exists those who do worship God in Truth.
Yes Jesus obeyed the law; which on one level is rather comical, because what does it prove; other than God can obey His own law? Are we so vain to think that God needs to prove that to Himself?
So what was the point of the incarnation in the first place. God didn't have to prove to Himself that He is righteous and because we're all dead in trespass and sin; we flat out just didn't give a rat's behind anyways!
My point about Jesus being sinless, is that when through the law authorities condemned someone who never broke the law, then those administrating the law broke the law.
So one purpose of the incarnation and the atonement, amongst several, is that Jesus came to defeat the works of Satan who had the power of death through the law. I believe Jesus had to die under the law sinless, so as to make a spectacle of those in authority of administrating the law; And end the Old Testament, thereby taking away Satan’s power of death.
Apart from that, I have never believed that God was proving to anyone that He could keep the law since He is Holy and has nothing to prove. I believe that He was showing Who He is personally, by demonstrating a Love that would willingly suffer a cross so as to make a way for salvation to those who were held captive through the law. This is the righteousness I see revealed in the Gospel. For Christ is the True Image of God sent by God, so as to contest the false image of god held as true by this world.
Yeah, vanity is very deceptive; especially when men think God's punishment was simply letting man sin on his own accord. (Does the individual who makes such a statement actually see that they've got that backwards?)
God's punishment was a result of man's sin. Man's sin was not a result of God's punishment; seeing how if there is no sin, there's nothing to punish!
Brilliant Boss - just brilliant! You could create a universe with that insight!
Respectfully, Romans 1 describes depravity in many forms, which we experience through being given over to the lusts of the flesh. We were not displaying those behaviors to begin with, but we did only after being given over to the lusts of the flesh. That is what the scripture says.
In Romans 1, Paul uses the term ‘recompense’ in explaining why God gave us over to the lusts of the flesh after not esteeming God appropriately. Now as a man, even though I understand that we did not esteem God as we should, I admit that I myself have wondered why God would put forth a recompense that would cause us to be ruled by our flesh when He knows it leads to our becoming all the more unrighteous.
But of course Paul doesn’t have it backwards. He’s not saying that sin entered in through God’s recompense, which is why he is not alluding to the garden incident. He even said elsewhere that sin was dead without the law. But Paul even anticipated what you are alluding to, and that what he was preaching would bring forth the same type of question I found myself asking
. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Moreover Paul says that he is accused of preaching let us sin so that grace may abound. These narratives that would question Paul’s preaching can only be postulated in the view that God meant to give the law so we would keep it, causing us to assume that we could keep it, (which is vanity). But of course we could not, causing us to admit that we need a Savior. Which means to me, that for the sake of vanity in mankind, God did not give the law believing we would be able to keep it, but rather to show us incapable of being righteous of our own selves. So it is, that righteousness comes by grace through faith in Christ, that it might be by grace and not of our selves.
Hence Paul says,
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
So at one point in time when I was in bondage to the law I thought the same thing you appear to believe, which is why I asked the question. It’s hard to imagine that God would withhold His virtue and cause people to see their depravity and then condemn them for that depravity. But in fact Paul does not preach that God condemns us for our depravity and neither did Jesus. For Jesus characterized the sinners as those in need of a doctor. He said blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, indicating that he is the righteousness they seek earnestly for. So God does not condemn us for our depravity. The condemnation is when mankind sees the Light revealing we’re depraved, but would rather prefer the darkness, where in vanity they can hide from admitting their depravity, rather than to turn to God and be healed. And again it is vanity when men think they are wise of themselves and will not admit that we are in need of God’s Spirit.
So simply put, you need to decide whether righteousness can be attained apart from God’s Spirit.
Well, reason would have it that if every mouth is stopped and all the world is guilty before God - would mean that everyone at some point is under the law.
The law doesn't "add iniquity to iniquity". It only tells a person that they are full of it!
That’s one way to say it. When I say adding iniquity to iniquity, I’m saying that it’s a blindness due to our own vanity, when we condemn someone else’s depravity, when in fact we’re all depraved sinners.
