LDS Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will "get their own planet?"

BigDaddy4 · May 24, 2019

He is the way said:
God does not need anyone's approval.

Then your previous post was misleading?

Neither of your first 2 verses support your argument. It's like a square peg in a round hole. The third verses are just musings of a false prophet and carry no weight whatsoever.

BigDaddy4 · May 24, 2019

He is the way said:
We were all awaiting our turn to come to earth:

(Old Testament | Genesis 2:1)

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Once again, this verse does not support your argument and doesn't say what you are trying to make it say. You were not one of these "hosts".

dzheremi · May 24, 2019

צְבָאָֽם (ṣə·ḇā·’ām), the word used in that verse ("their hosts"/"the host of them") is one of the more interesting words in Hebrew that has continued on into the Christian lexicon, as we left in untranslated in every subsequent language of Christian people, though not in that form (that is 3rd person plural, I believe; NB: I don't know Hebrew, just Google

). Putting my 'credentialed Linguist hat; on for this next statement (i.e., this is not me disagreeing with Mormonism on religious/doctrinal grounds, though I certainly do), whenever that happens -- when a word is borrowed in wholesale without being translated into an equivalent word in the target language -- there's generally a reason for it.

In Christianity, the form that we do use, Sabaoth, is an honorific for God as protector, particularly of armies (i.e., Israel conceptualized as an army; the Christian people conceptualized as an army, etc.). This is presumably why when you look up צְבָאָֽם (ṣə·ḇā·’ām) in a modern Hebrew context dictionary online, you get a lot results where the translation is not "their hosts", but "their armies". So perhaps in modern Hebrew, the word has shifted to mean not "protector of armies", but just "armies".

Knowing this about that word and its particular meaning in Christianity (and, at least according to Wiktionary -- which I know is not the greatest source in the world, but again, I don't know Hebrew -- in Judaism, as well) kind of puts a new spin on the Mormon apologetics, doesn't it? He Is The Way is apparently envisioning disembodied spirits waiting to get bodies, but following the word as it is actually used would make us think that they weren't waiting to get bodies, but were made as armies of the Lord, with Him at their head, as their protector.

At least that's the sense that comes through in the prayers where you actually see the sabaoth form used, as in this Coptic prayer from the Agepya (Coptic daily prayer book):

Holy Holy Holy. Lord of hosts (sabaoth). Heaven and earth are full of Your glory and honor. Have mercy on us, O God the Father, the Almighty O Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. O Lord, God of hosts (sabaoth), be with us. For we have no helper in our hardships and tribulations but You. Absolve, forgive, and remit, O God, our transgressions; those which we have committed willingly and those we have committed unwillingly, those which we have committed knowingly and those which we have committed unknowingly, the hidden and manifest, O Lord forgive us, for the sake of Your Holy name which is called upon us.

Let it be according to Your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins.

+++

Again, it is about God as protector, and acknowledged Lord and master of our fates, as 'commander' (of sorts) of those He has created.

NB: in my physical copy of the Agpeya, it has Sabaoth in brackets like that, and every time I've prayed from it in church during the raising of the incense, we say 'Sabaoth', though sometimes later in the liturgy we will say "Lord of Hosts" instead, as that is an equivalent meaning (keeping in mind here what "hosts" does and does not mean); in Arabic, the word is borrowed as الصاباؤوت al-Sabaout, which is a quite literal rendering of the Greek form used in Coptic (and in Christianity most generally, with the caveat that the last letter is a "t" rather than a "th" sound because even though that's available in the Arabic alphabet, Egyptians in particular don't really do "th" sounds -- everything becomes a T, Z, or S, depending on which Coptic/Greek/Arabic letter it is meant to represent, so unless the priest happens to already know English and have mastered this sound, which is rather rare across the world's languages, he'll usually say "Saba-oot", which is more or less as it is written in Arabic above.)

Or consider Psalm 23:

Lift up your gates, you princes, and be lifted up, you everlasting doors; and the king of glory shall come in. Who is this king of glory? The Lord who is strong and mighty, the Lord who is mighty in war. Lift up your gates, you princes; and be lifted up, you everlasting doors; and the king of glory shall come in. Who is this king of glory? The Lord of hosts (sabaoth), He is this king of glory. ALLELUIA.

+++

It makes sense when you actually know what it meant to the ancient Hebrews, rather than to people who didn't know what they were talking about, like Joseph Smith, and people who follow those people who didn't know what they were talking about.

TL, DR version: disembodied spirits waiting to get bodies, no; armies of the Lord, yes.

He is the way · May 24, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Once again, this verse does not support your argument and doesn't say what you are trying to make it say. You were not one of these "hosts".

Of course you are going to say that the Bible does not mean what it actually says, because you don't agree with LDS doctrine.

He is the way · May 24, 2019

dzheremi said:
Your religion attempts to resurrect what it thinks was the OT system, conveniently (but I have to conclude purposefully) forgetting that He Who was to come has indeed done so, making prophecy to discern the word of God at best seeing through a glass darkly. Thus Moses and Abraham saw. (NB: when Moses saw the almighty God, he could not look at Him directly)

Now, in the post-incarnational world transformed by Christ, the Word is revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God, and Savior, Who has come and saved us by His holy sacrifice upon the life-giving cross.

So we must wonder at this strange religion which claims to be a form of Christianity -- and not only a form, but the only true from -- and yet operates in a fashion that implicitly denies the reality of the incarnation, which has transformed the world in which we all live. Christ's glorious incarnation and birth literally split time itself into two (BC/AD), and yet it seems your religion prefers to pretend as though it remains in the pre-incarnational world.

Why is that? Why won't you join the rest of us in the years of our Lord (Anno Domini), not just on the calendar (as I assume you already do), but in your theology and the faith that is affirmed by it? You won't do it. Instead you cling to something else that you call the true faith that was 'lost' or 'taken from the world' or some such, but is in reality the musings of Joseph Smith and those who followed him, who were and are false prophets, one and all.

You do not have the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You have not received the Savior, the God-man Jesus Christ. One with His Father and the Holy Spirit in the perfect, eternally united, uncreated and indivisible Holy Trinity (our God, as Christians). To present things otherwise is to pretend that Mormonism has the faith of Christians, which is the true faith in the reality of Christ's coming, incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit (Who is God, the Giver of Life...not an untrustworthy feeling/burning in the bossom) and of the Virgin Mary, for us men (humankind) and our salvation, and so on. (I don't feel the need to recite the Creed, as it is obvious to anyone with ears to hear and eyes to see how Mormonism falls short of the very basics of Christianity.)

Can you say the same? No. You refuse in favor of your bizarre system of 'prophets' who are not that, baptisms which are not that, 'the sacrament' which is not that (and 'sacrament meetings' in place of liturgy/mass...yes, I know you guys have your temple rituals which are scripted, but for one you won't talk about them, so we can't contrast and compare, and for another thing I've seen them, and they're nothing like a Christian liturgy of any type -- Orthodox, Catholic, High Church Mainline Protestant, etc.; it's freemasonry with some fables sprinkled through, in what looks to be bakers' clothing), and all this other nonsense.

So quit it with this "God talked to Abraham, and also Joseph Smith" type of reasoning. God did lots of stuff that we weren't commanded to continue, particularly in the OT since that's the covenant He made with Jews, and Christianity and Judaism are not the same religion (precisely because of Christ's coming, and their denial of Him). Have you seen any Christians slaughter any Amorites or whoever lately because God said to do so in the OT? Of course not. And so neither do we revert to the old ways beyond what the Church has accepted from Judaism prior to our being thrown from the temple (quite a lot; ask anyone who studies the history of the development of Christian liturgy, or read anyone who has written on the same, like Jaroslav Pelikan, Robert Taft, etc.), which was handled by the apostles themselves in council at Jerusalem circa AD 50, as recorded in the Bible itself (in the book of Acts).

So even if it your system were somehow a 'restoration' of anything ancient, which it absolutely is not, it would only mean that you are today 1,969 years behind the Church and the actual apostles who lived, learned from, and taught the pure faith from the lips of our Lord Himself, Whom they walked the earth alongside.

Your Joseph Smith or any of your other claimed prophets can say nothing of the kind beyond a few different versions of some supposed 'vision' that happened to Smith. That's rather odd, don't you think? Our Lord went through great pains after His resurrection to illustrate that He was not a vision to the doubting disciple St. Thomas, telling him to put his hands into the wounds on our Lord's side. St. Thomas did so, and brought his experience with the risen Christ to India in AD 52. Within a few decades of Christ's mission on earth. And so all the apostolic churches were founded, not on some obscurantist 'vision' given to one man a la Joseph Smith or his spiritual forefather the imentally-unstable Muhammad, founder of Islam, but on the experience of the risen Christ.

Come to the living, incarnate, risen Christ in the Christian faith, and leave the strange superstitions and outmoded OT role-playing/play acting of Joseph Smith et al. behind. Only Christ saves. Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion's temple ordinances or whatever do not.

While the law of sacrifice was fulfilled, the commandments were not done away with:
(New Testament | Matthew 5:18)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus often referred to the old testament when talking about the commandments:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

These are straight out of the Old Testament and still valid today. However life is changing and that is why we need revelation today. The word of wisdom and the proclamation to the world comes to mind. After we die we will have a long time to progress toward perfection to become one with Jesus Christ. Worlds without end:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:17)

17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:14 - 21)

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

BigDaddy4 · May 24, 2019

He is the way said:
Of course you are going to say that the Bible does not mean what it actually says, because you don't agree with LDS doctrine.

You are correct in that I do not agree with LDS doctrine, because LDS doctrine does not agree with the Bible.

BigDaddy4 · May 24, 2019

He is the way said:
(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:17)

17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Sometimes it seems like you do a word or phrase search and randomly pick a result. Once again, this has nothing to do with what you are claiming it's supposed to support.

dzheremi · May 24, 2019

He is the way said:
While the law of sacrifice was fulfilled, the commandments were not done away with:
(New Testament | Matthew 5:18)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Indeed. Then the question for the Mormon religion becomes: Did Christ fulfill the law or not? I know the Christian answer (yes), but the Mormon answer appears to be different, according to what you guys preach and (attempt to) do.

Jesus often referred to the old testament when talking about the commandments:

Duh. This is a nonsense, throw-away statement. Was He supposed to refer to the New Testament before it was written? Is Jesus the Savior and Redeemer of the whole creation, or the Amazing Kreskin?

Also, in the Christian religion, the OT is read in light of NT, which is after all the written record of the coming of Christ, which is the entire point of highlighting how it is that Mormons ignore/diminish that glorious mystery. So I don't know what you think pointing to Christ's referencing the OT is doing, but it's not answering my criticism. I would not for a second disagree with anything you've quoted from the holy mouth of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. He taught His blessed and honored apostles the true faith which they brought to us in Asia Minor, Egypt, Libya, India, Sudan, Carthage, and so on (all the early centers of Christianity). No one may ignore or dispute His words, but the Mormon religion sure does twist them to mean things they clearly do not mean, which in my book is even worse. As I've been saying for years, if Mormonism would stop claiming to be Christian, we'd have less conflict between Chrittians and Mormons. Yet you persist in profaning the holy name of our perfect and complete religion, authored by Christ Himself, with your lies and fantasies dreamed up by Joseph Smith, and put Joseph Smith's 19th century occultism into the OT and NT by many different strands of pretzel logic and outright fabrication.

(New Testament | Matthew 22:36 - 40)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Amen.

These are straight out of the Old Testament and still valid today.

Amen. Of course they are.

However life is changing and that is why we need revelation today.

Life may change, but Christ our God is eternal, God the Father is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. You should know that by now, right? So what is it about Christ's timeless words that the Holy Spirit will come and lead His disciples into ALL TRUTH that you do not understand? (John 16:13)

Just like Mormonism's bizarre OT-imitation system minimizes/ignores/attempts to discredit or undo the coming of Christ, what can we say but that it also must think that the Holy Spirit -- Who is God -- has failed, and that Jesus was lying or mistaken when he said those words?

May God forbid such blasphemy! This is why I will always say that Mormonism risks the souls of its good-intentioned members, who seek to follow Christ but instead are fed anti-Christ poison. How long can you put up with lies that mutilate God that come from 19th century folk-magic practicioners and other shysters? It's a con, and worse than that it draws people away from Christ, because you can't follow Him and Joseph Smith (or Brigham Young, or Jeffery Holland, or whoever) at the same time, because these Mormon prophets and seers or whatever do not preach the true Christ.

The rest of your post is but more nonsense that you have injected into the Bible because Mormonism essentially forces you to do that. "Worlds without end", indeed. So you've found a verse that says that words that you just said. So what? Show me where in any section or part of the history of Christianity where any interpreter of the holy scriptures (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant...I don't really care, since I know they're all against your religion's interpretation) has interpreted the passages you've presented as your religion does? You won't find it, because ultimately Mormonism is anti-Christianity dressed up in pilfered and twisted Christian verbiage, to confuse and convert those who don't know any better.

Well, not to puff myself up, but you're not dealing with such a person here, so you can save your twisting of scripture for some other time -- just like you're not dealing with that when you converse with BigDaddy4, Phoebe Ann, Armenian John, or anyone else who has taken on Mormonism here, so it's not a personal matter of me vs. you, it's Christianity vs. Mormonism. You're not dealing with a bunch of gullible fools who think that because you can quote the Bible, therefore you must be presenting true Christianity. This is how Christianity-based cults work, and I have seen both LDS and its Filipino copycat version the INC up close and personal as my immediate family members converted to them -- and then thankfully soon after de-converted. They are Christianity-based cults, but still dangerous cults through and through.

dzheremi · May 24, 2019

Man...I should just wait for BigDaddy4 to post something and then quote it and say "Yeah, this." The part about doing a word search is spot on, and said in one sentence as opposed to several paragraphs...

I think the Egyptians have gotten me with their "let's make our worship last forever and ever and ever!" mentality. Hahahaha. Oh, one amen is good? Let's do like 50, all over the place. And let's elongate them and do them in three languages. Aaaaaa-aaaa-aaamen Ammmm-iiiin Es-e-shoo-ooo-obiiiiii! (*collapses from lack of air intake at the end of liturgy*)

Worship is one thing, but not everything needs to go on forever.

He is the way · May 24, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
You are correct in that I do not agree with LDS doctrine, because LDS doctrine does not agree with the Bible.

A person could say that the New Testament does not agree with the old Testament. Certainly the sermon on the mount was different as it was the higher law. When Jesus was asked who was his neighbor, Jesus responded with the parable of the good Samaritan. He then said go and do likewise. The reason I say this is that being different does not mean that they do not agree. Neither does LDS doctrine disagree disagree with the Bible in that sense. It only disagrees with what you are being taught just as Christ's teachings disagreed with what the Jews were being taught.

He is the way · May 24, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Sometimes it seems like you do a word or phrase search and randomly pick a result. Once again, this has nothing to do with what you are claiming it's supposed to support.

I believe this supports the fact that there are worlds without end and that one day we will inherit them.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Besides your blatant misuse of Job to justify your point (God was showing Job that Job wasn't even around when those things happened, and neither were you or I), your response doesn't make sense, even in your theology. How can everyone on earth shout for joy when the earth was finally created? There wasn't anyone on earth when it was created (Adam showed up on the 6th day) and your pre-existence theology says "everyone" was an intelligence or spirit with God. So how can "JS, you and I and everyone on earth" shout for joy when we weren't on earth at the time?

We were informed that it had been created, we were certainly not on the earth, when we shouted for joy when we got the news. We were in another place called heaven.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2019

dzheremi said:
Your religion attempts to resurrect what it thinks was the OT system, conveniently (but I have to conclude purposefully) forgetting that He Who was to come has indeed done so, making prophecy to discern the word of God at best seeing through a glass darkly. Thus Moses and Abraham saw. (NB: when Moses saw the almighty God, he could not look at Him directly)

Now, in the post-incarnational world transformed by Christ, the Word is revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God, and Savior, Who has come and saved us by His holy sacrifice upon the life-giving cross.

So we must wonder at this strange religion which claims to be a form of Christianity -- and not only a form, but the only true from -- and yet operates in a fashion that implicitly denies the reality of the incarnation, which has transformed the world in which we all live. Christ's glorious incarnation and birth literally split time itself into two (BC/AD), and yet it seems your religion prefers to pretend as though it remains in the pre-incarnational world.

Why is that? Why won't you join the rest of us in the years of our Lord (Anno Domini), not just on the calendar (as I assume you already do), but in your theology and the faith that is affirmed by it? You won't do it. Instead you cling to something else that you call the true faith that was 'lost' or 'taken from the world' or some such, but is in reality the musings of Joseph Smith and those who followed him, who were and are false prophets, one and all.

You do not have the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You have not received the Savior, the God-man Jesus Christ. One with His Father and the Holy Spirit in the perfect, eternally united, uncreated and indivisible Holy Trinity (our God, as Christians). To present things otherwise is to pretend that Mormonism has the faith of Christians, which is the true faith in the reality of Christ's coming, incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit (Who is God, the Giver of Life...not an untrustworthy feeling/burning in the bossom) and of the Virgin Mary, for us men (humankind) and our salvation, and so on. (I don't feel the need to recite the Creed, as it is obvious to anyone with ears to hear and eyes to see how Mormonism falls short of the very basics of Christianity.)

Can you say the same? No. You refuse in favor of your bizarre system of 'prophets' who are not that, baptisms which are not that, 'the sacrament' which is not that (and 'sacrament meetings' in place of liturgy/mass...yes, I know you guys have your temple rituals which are scripted, but for one you won't talk about them, so we can't contrast and compare, and for another thing I've seen them, and they're nothing like a Christian liturgy of any type -- Orthodox, Catholic, High Church Mainline Protestant, etc.; it's freemasonry with some fables sprinkled through, in what looks to be bakers' clothing), and all this other nonsense.

So quit it with this "God talked to Abraham, and also Joseph Smith" type of reasoning. God did lots of stuff that we weren't commanded to continue, particularly in the OT since that's the covenant He made with Jews, and Christianity and Judaism are not the same religion (precisely because of Christ's coming, and their denial of Him). Have you seen any Christians slaughter any Amorites or whoever lately because God said to do so in the OT? Of course not. And so neither do we revert to the old ways beyond what the Church has accepted from Judaism prior to our being thrown from the temple (quite a lot; ask anyone who studies the history of the development of Christian liturgy, or read anyone who has written on the same, like Jaroslav Pelikan, Robert Taft, etc.), which was handled by the apostles themselves in council at Jerusalem circa AD 50, as recorded in the Bible itself (in the book of Acts).

So even if it your system were somehow a 'restoration' of anything ancient, which it absolutely is not, it would only mean that you are today 1,969 years behind the Church and the actual apostles who lived, learned from, and taught the pure faith from the lips of our Lord Himself, Whom they walked the earth alongside.

Your Joseph Smith or any of your other claimed prophets can say nothing of the kind beyond a few different versions of some supposed 'vision' that happened to Smith. That's rather odd, don't you think? Our Lord went through great pains after His resurrection to illustrate that He was not a vision to the doubting disciple St. Thomas, telling him to put his hands into the wounds on our Lord's side. St. Thomas did so, and brought his experience with the risen Christ to India in AD 52. Within a few decades of Christ's mission on earth. And so all the apostolic churches were founded, not on some obscurantist 'vision' given to one man a la Joseph Smith or his spiritual forefather the imentally-unstable Muhammad, founder of Islam, but on the experience of the risen Christ.

Come to the living, incarnate, risen Christ in the Christian faith, and leave the strange superstitions and outmoded OT role-playing/play acting of Joseph Smith et al. behind. Only Christ saves. Joseph Smith and the Mormon religion's temple ordinances or whatever do not.

And after all that we are the only church that holds the keys that can bind and loose, the same keys that Christ gave Peter. What our priests do is recognized in heaven. Only ones holding the keys will heaven recognize. That's the only way it could be. Heaven cannot recognize 2 competing doctrines or set of priests. Only one.

Jesus appeared to JS in the same way that he appeared to Paul, only it was better because Jesus's Father was present also.

In that vision, the following was learned:

1) the true church of Jesus Christ was not on the earth.
2) the true nature of God and His Son Jesus Christ
3) the true church would be restored again to the earth for the purpose of getting the whole earth ready for the second coming of Christ.
4) that JS would be an important figure, working with the Son restore the truth again to the earth.
5) that there would be many prophets in the future and that the church would never again be taken from the earth until the second coming of Jesus.

There are others but these were the important elements of the vision with God and Jesus Christ.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2019

dzheremi said:
צְבָאָֽם (ṣə·ḇā·’ām), the word used in that verse ("their hosts"/"the host of them") is one of the more interesting words in Hebrew that has continued on into the Christian lexicon, as we left in untranslated in every subsequent language of Christian people, though not in that form (that is 3rd person plural, I believe; NB: I don't know Hebrew, just Google ). Putting my 'credentialed Linguist hat; on for this next statement (i.e., this is not me disagreeing with Mormonism on religious/doctrinal grounds, though I certainly do), whenever that happens -- when a word is borrowed in wholesale without being translated into an equivalent word in the target language -- there's generally a reason for it.

In Christianity, the form that we do use, Sabaoth, is an honorific for God as protector, particularly of armies (i.e., Israel conceptualized as an army; the Christian people conceptualized as an army, etc.). This is presumably why when you look up צְבָאָֽם (ṣə·ḇā·’ām) in a modern Hebrew context dictionary online, you get a lot results where the translation is not "their hosts", but "their armies". So perhaps in modern Hebrew, the word has shifted to mean not "protector of armies", but just "armies".

Knowing this about that word and its particular meaning in Christianity (and, at least according to Wiktionary -- which I know is not the greatest source in the world, but again, I don't know Hebrew -- in Judaism, as well) kind of puts a new spin on the Mormon apologetics, doesn't it? He Is The Way is apparently envisioning disembodied spirits waiting to get bodies, but following the word as it is actually used would make us think that they weren't waiting to get bodies, but were made as armies of the Lord, with Him at their head, as their protector.

At least that's the sense that comes through in the prayers where you actually see the sabaoth form used, as in this Coptic prayer from the Agepya (Coptic daily prayer book):

Holy Holy Holy. Lord of hosts (sabaoth). Heaven and earth are full of Your glory and honor. Have mercy on us, O God the Father, the Almighty O Holy Trinity, have mercy on us. O Lord, God of hosts (sabaoth), be with us. For we have no helper in our hardships and tribulations but You. Absolve, forgive, and remit, O God, our transgressions; those which we have committed willingly and those we have committed unwillingly, those which we have committed knowingly and those which we have committed unknowingly, the hidden and manifest, O Lord forgive us, for the sake of Your Holy name which is called upon us.

Let it be according to Your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins.

+++

Again, it is about God as protector, and acknowledged Lord and master of our fates, as 'commander' (of sorts) of those He has created.

NB: in my physical copy of the Agpeya, it has Sabaoth in brackets like that, and every time I've prayed from it in church during the raising of the incense, we say 'Sabaoth', though sometimes later in the liturgy we will say "Lord of Hosts" instead, as that is an equivalent meaning (keeping in mind here what "hosts" does and does not mean); in Arabic, the word is borrowed as الصاباؤوت al-Sabaout, which is a quite literal rendering of the Greek form used in Coptic (and in Christianity most generally, with the caveat that the last letter is a "t" rather than a "th" sound because even though that's available in the Arabic alphabet, Egyptians in particular don't really do "th" sounds -- everything becomes a T, Z, or S, depending on which Coptic/Greek/Arabic letter it is meant to represent, so unless the priest happens to already know English and have mastered this sound, which is rather rare across the world's languages, he'll usually say "Saba-oot", which is more or less as it is written in Arabic above.)

Or consider Psalm 23:

Lift up your gates, you princes, and be lifted up, you everlasting doors; and the king of glory shall come in. Who is this king of glory? The Lord who is strong and mighty, the Lord who is mighty in war. Lift up your gates, you princes; and be lifted up, you everlasting doors; and the king of glory shall come in. Who is this king of glory? The Lord of hosts (sabaoth), He is this king of glory. ALLELUIA.

+++

It makes sense when you actually know what it meant to the ancient Hebrews, rather than to people who didn't know what they were talking about, like Joseph Smith, and people who follow those people who didn't know what they were talking about.

TL, DR version: disembodied spirits waiting to get bodies, no; armies of the Lord, yes.

And after all that, these armies of the Lord were all created by the end of the creative process, as Genesis 2:2 says:
Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

So if the heavens and the earth and all the hosts of them were created in the beginning, where did God put all of these armies of people when they were created?

We know 2 of them, Adam and Eve came to the earth, and received bodies of flesh, but where is the rest of the army that God created?

The Church of Jesus Christ says that God/Elohim did create this army/hosts of the earth before he rested on the 7th day. He created them in spirit form, and in heaven. Then in Genesis 2:5, the Lord God/Yahweh/Elohim took 2 of them and brought them to earth and created bodies for them, Adam and Eve. Then over the centuries, billions of the army was brought to earth and given flesh bodies too, and it continues even to this day.

The pre-earth life is real and it is biblical too, but you have to search a little for the scriptures and put them together. For instance, Jude in Jude 1:6 talks about the first estate. What was he talking about?
That is what God calls the pre-earth spirit world, the first estate.

The interesting thing is that the army/hosts that God created in the beginning, some of that army followed satan and were cast out of heaven (our first estate) and this is what Jude was talking about.
In fact 1/3 of the army/hosts were turned by satan and followed him and kept not their first estate, but left (were cast out) of their own habitation.

This is what I mean that you have to search the scriptures and piece it together. But it is there.

So you can call 'hosts' by another name, 'armies' but they were created in the beginning in heaven in a spirit form and await their turn on earth, even today.

And if that is foolishness to you, explain what God did with the creation of the hosts/armies of earth and only 2 came in the flesh, Adam and Eve to start the whole thing?

Rescued One · May 27, 2019

Mormons don't obey all the O. T. laws; they call it the Preparatory Gospel.

"We saw in chapter 11 how the Lord began the revelation of the law for Israel with the ten principles that summarized the way in which men are to deal with God, with their families, and with their fellow men. Immediately after the Ten Commandments, the Lord revealed a whole series of laws and commandments which we now call the Mosaic law.

"It is unfortunate that many people, some even in the Church, think of the Mosaic law as a substitute for the higher law of the gospel. We call it a lesser law, and so it was, if the word lesser is used in the sense of progressive steps. But some people assume that lesser means of lower importance and significance, or of a lesser level of truth and righteousness. Such is not the case. Note what other scriptures teach about the law:

"D & C 84:23-27
The law of Moses was a 'preparatory gospel' that included the principles of repentance, baptism, remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments."

Exodus 21–24; 31–35: The Mosaic Law: A Preparatory Gospel

He is the way · May 27, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Mormons don't obey all the O. T. laws; they call it the Preparatory Gospel.

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints don't obey all of the Mosaic laws because Jesus fulfilled the law of sacrifice. Members no longer need to sacrifice animals as a blood sacrifice because Jesus was that sacrifice. We still repent, get baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc. Jesus did give everyone the higher law when He gave the sermon on the mount. He expects us to LOVE one another as He LOVES us:

(New Testament | John 13:34 - 35)

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Rescued One · May 28, 2019

The Preparatory Gospel was insufficient as is the Bible in Mormon teachings. Even the Book of Mormon doesn't tell them how to have eternal life.

And their lesson manual gives an outline but not the details because some church members aren't worthy enough to know them. Exaltation to Godhood is to have eternal life.

Requirements for Exaltation

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

We must be baptized.
We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
We must receive the temple endowment.
We must be married for eternity...

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

Love God and our neighbors.
Keep the commandments.
Repent of our wrongdoings.
Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
Study the scriptures.
Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives............................................................................................................Chapter 47: Exaltation

But there is a whole lot more that the member is required to do. All of the false teachings have to be obeyed!

He is the way · May 28, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
The Preparatory Gospel was insufficient as is the Bible in Mormon teachings. Even the Book of Mormon doesn't tell them how to have eternal life.

And their lesson manual gives an outline but not the details because some church members aren't worthy enough to know them. Exaltation to Godhood is to have eternal life.

Requirements for Exaltation

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

We must be baptized.

We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

We must receive the temple endowment.

We must be married for eternity...

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

Love God and our neighbors.

Keep the commandments.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives............................................................................................................Chapter 47: Exaltation

But there is a whole lot more that the member is required to do. All of the false teachings have to be obeyed!

So you left out paying tithes and offerings, Fasting, praying, etc. Do you consider these false teachings? Perhaps you could elaborate on the false teachings that need to be obeyed.

drstevej · May 28, 2019

He is the way said:
So you left out paying tithes and offerings, Fasting, praying, etc. Do you consider these false teachings? Perhaps you could elaborate on the false teachings that need to be obeyed.

Ironhold · May 28, 2019

drstevej said:
View attachment 257307

As a staff member, you should know that those who are LDS do *not* like seeing the garments used cheaply like this and that your doing so is offensive.

LDS Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will "get their own planet?"

It's a new season...

It's a new season...

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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It's a new season...

It's a new season...

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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Well-Known Member

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

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