CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

Hello brother aiki, nice to meet you. Some comments for your consideration below. I might break this down section by section into smaller posts for readability.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑Hi my brothers and sisters. Can a believer become an unbeliever?

Your response...

aiki said:
No, not a genuinely born-again believer, indwelt by God's Spirit and fundamentally transformed by him. (2 Corinthians 5:17) There are, of course, many "tares" in the Church (Matthew 13:24-43), false converts, or "false brethren," as Paul the apostle called them (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4), who appear to be saved but because they aren't truly saved, eventually depart from the faith. (1 John 2:19)

I also agree that a "TRUE BELIEVER" in the "present tense" of application has and walks in God's Spirit through faith. These are God's children and true disciples. As it is written...

JOHN 8:31-36
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD , THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

Notice here that these promises are condtional on continuing to believe and follow God's Word; Those who continue in God's WORD have the promises of

1. KNOWING GOD'S TRUTH v32
2. FAITH IN THE TRUTH MAKING THEM FREE v32
3. FREEDOM IS FROM SIN NOT TO CONTINUE IN SIN v34-36

Where is the scripture that says a born again christian cannot fall away from the faith and no longer believe and follow Gods Word? Yet the scriptures in God's WORD clearly teach that those who have received God's Spirit can indeed fall away and grieve the Spirit of God as demonstrated in HEBREWS 6:4-8 not to mention the many warning all through the NEW COVENANT that warn believers against falling away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD (eg see OP).

aiki said:
One can certainly know about God and be familiar with Scripture and not be actually born-again. From this sort of thing many professing to be believers "fall away."

Indeed so the question is how can we know if we are born again children of God? Who are the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ 1 JOHN 2:18-19 [18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. [19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Your response...

aiki said:
Uh, no. Those who "went out from us" were "anti-christs," or those possessed of the spirit of anti-christ. And they "went out," not from the truth, but "from us," that is, the Body of Believers, the Church. In doing so they revealed that they were, in fact, anti-christs and not "of us," that is, not of the Church, the fellowship of genuinely saved people. John, then, is saying that these false believers within the Church, these anti-christs, finally revealed the falsity of their faith by departing from the Church. He points out that if they had been truly saved, if they had been "of us," they would have remained within the Body of Believers. What is in view, then, in John's words isn't believers falling away from the truth but false believers departing from the Church.

Anything that is against Christ is antichrist. The Greek word used here is ἀντίχριστος
antichristos which means against Christ of an opponent of the Messiah. If we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then we are an "UNBELIEVER" and against Christ because we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

As shown in the scriptures [19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? They went out from the truth. The problem was not that they went out from fellowship with the BELIEVERS. The problem was that they became "UNBELIEVERS"

The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers (ἀντίχριστος; antichristos; those who are against Christ and apponant of the Messiah)

They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (UNBELIEVERS). If they contunued with us then then would be of us (be continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word) and would have been of us. No longer believing God's Word they went out from us. If you no longer believe and follow the truth of God's Word to the end then you are no longer of us.

Let's now link these scriptures back to the previous post in JOHN 8:31-36. Do you remember the conditions that JESUS states for those who are His DISCIPLES and as PAUL says CONTINUED WITH US?

JOHN 8:31-36
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD , THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

They went out from us because they were not of us. They went out from us (disciples) because they did not CONTINUE BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. As a result of no longer BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD they left the truth.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑
HEBREWS 3:7-19
[7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

Your response...

aiki said:
When the Israelites doubted God's promises and were kept from the Promised Land as a consequence, did God utterly reject His Chosen People?

It depends on what you mean by chosen people. God's people have always only ever been a remnant and always will be *ROMANS 9:27; ROMANS 11:1-5; REVELATION 12:17. These are those that we are discussing now and that is all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD are God's children. UNBELIEVERS have never been God's people because they do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW Gods WORD. They have the faith of devils. Only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "present tense" are God's people. Those who have once followed God and FALL AWAY and not longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW Gods' WORD are not his people *EZEKIEL 18:20-28; HEBREWS 6:4-8. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24

aiki said:
Did He cast them off and leave them to their own devices? No. He didn't. He continued to be their God and provide and protect them in the wilderness. The Israelites may have departed from God in their unbelief, but He did not depart from them! How much more is He committed to the born-again believer whom He has adopted as a "joint-heir" with Christ? MUCH more! This passage, then, does not help your saved-and-lost false doctrine

Your forgetting those who rebelled against God in the wilderness who he cast off and destroyed from the very scriptures your quoting from *HEBREWS 3:9-19. Also have a read of NUMBERS 11 through to 21 to which PAUL is referring.

Thanks for sharing

Mathetes66 · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑
2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Your reponse..

aiki said:
This passage doesn't say anything about who, exactly, falls away. It is reading into the passage what isn't there to say those who fall away are genuine born-again believers. It seems much more likely that false converts are in view here.

The same argument can be turned your way. Where does it say in 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 that these scriptures are not referring to BELIEVERS? Who is the warning to; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The WARNING is for BELIEVERS which is the CONTEXT. This is verified in v1-3. [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

If these scriptures were not to BELIEVERS then there would be no WARNING but we find in v1-3 that the CONTEXT of these scriptures is a WARNING to BELIEVERS (brothers) not to be shaken in mind... let no man deceive you... there will be a falling away from the truth..
The Greek word used here for "FALLING AWAY" is ἀποστασία; apostasia; which means defection from truth (properly the state), (" apostasy" ): - falling away, forsake.

The reason for the FALLING AWAY is that those who fell away did not receive a LOVE of the truth that they might be saved *2 THESSALONIANS 2:10. They did not CONTINUE in God's WORD *JOHN 8:31-32 believing and following it and became "UNBELIEVERS".

They had the truth, did not love the truth and fell away from the truth of Gods' WORD. The very CONTEXT here is v2 "BE NOT SHAKEN IN MIND" v3 "LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU". There will be a v3 FALLING AWAY (DEPARTING FROM THE TRUTH ἀποστασία; apostasia).

The scriptures above also links to what JESUS says in MATTHEW 24:24 [24], For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The scriptures indicate a FALLING AWAY of BELIEVERS that is why the WARNING has been provided.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑
2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

Your response...

aiki said:
This confirms what I just suggested. Those who fall away are those who were not saved. That makes a lot more sense than the idea that truly born-again folk departed from the faith. These passages, then, don't help a saved-and-lost point of view.

Actually it doesn't. Your reading into the scriptures something they are not saying. Where in the scriptures does it say that the application here is to people that are not saved? Once again as shown above in v1-3 the WARNING here is to BELIEVERS. Not unbelievers and is something to come (future). A FALLING AWAY from God's truth before the 2nd Coming; For that day shall not come... v3

Thanks for sharing..[/QUOTE]

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

aiki said:
Is one who is "enlightened" also necessarily saved? No. I know of people who understand the Gospel very well, who can lay it all out for me quite clearly, but who are not saved. They possess some measure of intellectual enlightenment but their hearts remain far from God. That this kind of superficial enlightenment is in view is supported by the fact that those being described had only "tasted of the heavenly gift." The idea of a taste of something suggests only a partial, limited experience of it. Jesus "tasted" the vinegar on the sponge lifted to his lips while he was dying on the cross. But as soon as he had, he didn't suck thirstily at the vinegar, but immediately rejected it. When I say I've tasted something, generally I mean I have had only a small amount of it. This, I think, is the sense in which "tasted" is used in the passage above from Hebrews 6 which in turn suggests that the enlightenment mentioned was only superficial or partial, too. The word "partaker" in connection with the Holy Spirit is also, I think, referring to a second-hand partnering with the Spirit in his work in and through the Church. Many "tares" participate in the life and ministries of the Church. They don't have the Spirit indwelling them, but they still do partner with the Spirit by participating with genuine believers who are indwelt by him in their labours for God. That this is likely the way in which they have been "partakers" of the Spirit is confirmed by their falling away from the Gospel and the Church. As the apostle John wrote, "if they had been of us they would have continued with us."

This one is a pretty easy one to cover. You have actually missed out on a lot that is in these few scriptures which are in the first few verses.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; v4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6). These scripture are pretty rock solid I think and show that a BELIEVER can FALL AWAY back into SIN. Not sure why your having problems here brother to be honest.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑
[17], These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[18], For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19], While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Your response..

aiki said:
As your long quotation reveals, false teachers/prophets are in view in Peter's words, not genuine born-again believers. Verse 20 continues to speak of those who Peter had just said were "servants of corruption" and "wells without water" to whom is reserved the "blackness of darkness forever." How you can think, then, that Peter is describing genuine born-again believers in the section you've all-capped and bolded is beyond me. You might also pay attention to the word "if" at the beginning of verse 20. It could be construed as introducing an entirely speculative or potential situation, not a real one. He writes that if these lost false teachers escaped the pollutions of the world, etc., not that they actually had.

You'll notice that Peter speaks only of knowledge in the last three verses of your quotation from 2 Peter 2. He doesn't say they were saved, or born-again, or converted, or redeemed, only that if through the knowledge of Christ - not a saving faith in him - they had escaped the pollutions of the world but are entangled in them again, their end is worse than their beginning. What does it mean to "escape the pollutions of the world"? Does this refer to genuine salvation? I don't think so. I've known false converts who lived in a Christian manner, separate from the world in many ways. They could be said to have "escaped the pollutions of the world," avoiding bars, and strip clubs, casinos, even movie theatres, but it would have been wrong to say they were therefore saved.

Peter goes on to focus on what these people knew, rather than on what they had truly come to believe and put their trust in. (Verse 21) He doesn't ever indicate that he is talking about genuinely born-again people, only those who knew the way of righteousness. As I already noted, I know of a number of people who are not saved but who know the Gospel quite well. Their knowledge does not equate to salvation. I think this is true of those false teachers Peter described in the passage you've quoted above. He was not speaking of true believers who abandoned their faith.

I can't take any credit for these scriptures as they are Gods Word not mine

.

I added the whole section of 2 PETER 2:1-22 that you have part quoted to add the CONTEXT to what is being discussed by PETER. Let's have a look at some key points you have discarded in your reply post from the scriptures which disagree with your post in the scriptures your responding from...

1. CONTEXT is how God did not spare the angels that sinned or the world that sinned before the flood, or Sodom and Gommorah stating that these are all EXAMPLES of those who will live UNGODLY lives; v4-6.
2. The Lord knows how to deliver the Godly from temptation to sin; v9
3. The UNRIGHTEOUS will receive their reward for living ungodly lives v9-14
4. These people had FORSAKEN the right way and went astray; v15
5 Some will DECEIVE those who know truth through the lust of the flesh to follow their ways; v 18-19.

Ok so the above is the main CONTEXT you have left out of your discussion that shows that there will be those who have FORSAKEN the truth that went astray (v15) to follow the flesh, Some of these will seek to lure those who were clean escaped from them who live in error (BELIEVERS) v18-19. Key point here is that this class had FORSAKEN they truth and are now triyng to lure those who are not following them to follow the ways of the flesh.

The rest really does not need any commentary as the context here is to those who once had the truth but choose to FORSAKE the truth...

[20], FOR IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

According to the scriptures above brother PETER is talking about those who BELIEVED God's WORD as they ESCAPED the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD JESUS CHRIST v20. We can then see in v21 That they had known the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS, they ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS of the WORLD...v 20-21. THEY KNEW the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS then TURNED AWAY from it v22.

Pretty clear what the scriptures are talking about here brother. No need to comment further.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑
ACTS 20:28-31 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Your response...

aiki said:
Don't see any mention of born-again believers here. Your bolded bit only speaks of false teachers drawing to themselves followers - disciples. It doesn't say these followers were born-again believers, or, if they were, that they were therefore unsaved.

Is that because you do not see the words "BORN AGAIN" written into the scriptures here? Who is the WARNING to from PAUL? It is to BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? Of course PAULS WARNING is to BELIEVERS right? Is a BELIEVER (in the present tense) a BORN Again Christian or not?

The WARNING v28 take heed to yourselves and to all the flock (SHEEP) among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God" Yep seems like the warning is to BELIEVERS alright.

Now notice the picture PAUL is painting to God's SHEEP (BELIEVERS). He states v29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. PAUL is painting the picture when he departs that there will be those arising seeking to destroy the FAITH of the BELIEVERS.

These scriptures tie in nicely with the ones we have already presented in 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12 and MATTHEW 24:24. Sorry brother the point here in connection with 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12; MATTHEW 24:24 and 2 PETER 2:1-22 is that these WARNINGS are to BELIEVERS. The WARNING is of a FALLING AWAY from the truth of God's WORD. Now if we cannot FALL AWAY from God's truth then why do we need to be WARNED and why does God's WORD give scriptures of those who FALL AWAY from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD?

aiki said:
I've run out of time, I'm afraid, and will have to address the rest of your post later. Just scanning quickly through the remaining quotations you've put forward, it seems you continue to fall prey to eisegesis or the misapplication of Scripture.

As shown above it looks like you have fallen prey to eisegesis or the misapplication of Scripture. Sorry brother God's WORD disagree with you. Only sent in love and as a help to you.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.

His student · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi my brothers and sisters. Can a believer become an unbeliever? If so how? I believed we can all fall away from believing and following God's Word because this is what the scriptures teach...
Can you know God and fall away?

When doing my first post (#26) I assumed that you were talking about falling away and becoming an unbeliever in the sense of losing your salvation. Further readings of your posts seems to confirm that that is exactly the sense you were asking about. I.e. concerning the subject of eternal security.

If per chance I have misunderstood and you were only talking about temporary disbelief - then my answer is yes.

15 years of my life stand as testimony to that fact.

But, regarding God's promise of being faithful to finish the work He began in me, the grace of God caused the Holy Spirit to rekindled my faith and brought me back into Kingdom life.

I.e. - if you are talking about loss of salvation - one cannot lose eternal life. If you are talking about wasted years in this life - God's children can waste a great many years while the Lord graciously deals with them in various ways, including discipline.

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

His student said:
When doing my first post (#26) I assumed that you were talking about falling away and becoming an unbeliever in the sense of losing your salvation. Further readings of your posts seems to confirm that that is exactly the sense you were asking about. I.e. concerning the subject of eternal security.

If per chance I have misunderstood and you were only talking about temporary disbelief - then my answer is yes.

15 years of my life stand as testimony to that fact.

But, regarding God's promise of being faithful to finish the work He began in me, the grace of God caused the Holy Spirit to rekindled my faith and brought me back into Kingdom life.

I.e. - if you are talking about loss of salvation - one cannot lose eternal life. If you are talking about wasted years in this life - God's children can waste a great many years while the Lord graciously deals with them in various ways, including discipline.

Thanks for your thoughts brother. For me the scriptures in the OP are pretty clear that God's promises are conditonal on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". This is confirmed in the Words of JESUS...

JOHN 8:31-36
[31],Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

We must CONTINUE BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD to the end to receive God's promises...

MATTHEW 24:12-14 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved. [14], And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.

Salvation is from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother and I am glad you came back to JESUS.

God bless

Hammster · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Of course God does not forsake those who are His Sheep. His Sheep are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (present tense) those who are not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God are not His Sheep because they do not hear His Voice or follow him. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Jesus seems pretty clear that His sheep will hear and follow. So if one is His sheep, they are always His sheep.

Bible Highlighter · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi my brothers and sisters. Can a believer become an unbeliever? If so how? I believed we can all fall away from believing and following God's Word because this is what the scriptures teach...

Can you know God and fall away?

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I agree that the Bible teaches that a believer can fall away from the faith (apostasy) or that a believer can die spiritually as a result of dying physically in unconfessed grievous sin (like hate, lying, and lusting, etc.), but 1 John 2:18-19 is not one of these passages. 1 John 2:18-19 is referring to gnostic believers that held to heretical views (Such as denying sin's existence - 1 John 1:8 (kind of like the Christian Scientist), and denying that Christ came in the flesh, i.e. a rejection of Christ's deity - 1 John 4:3 (like the Unitarian). They were never of the true body of believers to begin with even though they went out from the apostle's care of hearing God's message. These individuals were never saved or born again spiritually.

But this does not mean there are not other passages or verses that speak about how a believer can fall away. For...

Paul teaches that we can fall away from the faith:

We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8) (Also see: Romans 8:13).
We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts of the Apostles 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)

Many think that if you have been saved at one point in time in the past, and you will always be saved. But the Bible teaches that...

We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7).

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

What is enduring (or overcoming) in the faith? It is being faithful or living holy by the power of God working in you. It is obedience to the Lord's commands, and not justifying grievous sin.

Anyways, I hope this helps, and may God bless you this fine day.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

Jason.

chilehed · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Can a believer become an unbeliever?

Yes, of course, as the Bible says.

LoveGodsWord said:
If so how

By abandoning his faith in God.

His student · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Salvation is from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36

Just to put to rest any straw men and keep you from tilting at windmills - No one says otherwise.

LoveGodsWord said:
Thanks for your thoughts brother. For me the scriptures in the OP are pretty clear that God's promises are conditonal on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". This is confirmed in the Words of JESUS...
JOHN 8
[31]........ "If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed"......
We must CONTINUE BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD to the end to receive God's promises...
MATTHEW 24
But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
Salvation is from sin not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36

As so many before you have done - you take a simple statement which tells us of some who obey the Lord and will be saved and illogically reason that others who do not obey in the same manner will therefore not be saved.

That's simply bad logic brother. Therefore - there's really no need for further comment on those scriptures.

LoveGodsWord said:
I added the whole section of 2 PETER 2:1-22 that you have part quoted to add the CONTEXT to what is being discussed by PETER. Let's have a look at some key points you have discarded in your reply post from the scriptures which disagree with your post in the scriptures your responding from...
2 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the lascivious life of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] lawless deeds): 9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment; 10 but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise dominion. Daring, self-willed, they tremble not to rail at dignities: 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, bring not a railing judgment against them before the Lord.

It's interesting how you are able to see what you want to see in that passage and not what you don't want to see (what the Holy Spirit through Peter actually said).

All of the "curses" in the passage are hurled at the false prophets and teachers who appear among God's people to tempt them.

In contrast to those who the Lord will so judge - God assures us that He knows how to preserve His children - as He did in His examples of Noah and Lot.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of temptation". 2 Peter 2:9

Those who have believed have passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation. He Who began a good work in them will complete it.

As for me and mine (and it appears a great many others here as well who trust in the grace of God for their salvation) - I know Whom I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have entrusted to Him against the day of judgment.

If you and a few others who have posted on this thread lack that faith - that'll be between you and the Lord to work on.

aiki · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

Does "drift away" mean "lose salvation"? This is not what the verse says. It sounds to me like the verse is simply warning of the danger of hearing the Gospel and not responding to it with a saving faith.

LoveGodsWord said:
HEBREWS 10:26-31
26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

What is verse 26 describing? Is "receiving a knowledge of the truth" tantamount to salvation? No. As I pointed out in my last post, one of the things that characterizes a false convert is a knowledge of the Gospel but no true heart-level trusting in Christ. And when this is the case, when the Gospel is known but not taken seriously, sin crowds in and the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary is made impotent. All that is left to one who has known but spurned the Gospel is the fiery judgment of eternal hell, made more "fearful" by the willful rejection of the way of salvation. Such a person is guilty not merely of sin but, in rejecting the Gospel, of treading underfoot the Son of God, treating the shed blood of Christ as an unholy thing, and despising the Spirit of grace. In all of this there is no doctrine of a believer losing salvation but a description of the consequences of the lost rejecting the way of salvation they have come to know.

LoveGodsWord said:
ISAIAH 59:1-3
1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

Of course sin separates us all from God. This is why we all need to be saved! Isaiah is not saying, however, that a born-again believer can be saved and then lost. Such an idea is no where present in his words above. Israel often strayed from Jehovah but God never utterly rejected them, casting off any further relationship with His Chosen People. No, He disciplined His wayward people - sometimes very severely - but he continued with them, preserving them as His own even in the midst of their sin.

LoveGodsWord said:
EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

??? Neither Ezekiel nor Isaiah had any idea of the relationship the born-again believer has with God. There was no righteous man in the time of the OT who was a genuinely saved man, who had the Almighty Spirit of God dwelling constantly within, bringing spiritual regeneration and the new, transformative life in Christ. Thinking, then, that Paul and these OT prophets were all promoting a saved-and-lost doctrine badly misunderstands Scripture. This is true for all of the other OT passages you cite. The righteous man of the OT was not - could not - be the born-again believer of the NT.

Bible Highlighter · May 24, 2019

To all:

I think that when the Bible talks about sheep and goats it is talking from an eternal perspective or from the perspective of the final judgment. For the goats and sheep were separated from each other at the judgment (Matthew 25:31-33) (Note: The sheep were on the right, and the goats were on the left). How is a sheep defined according to the Bible?

Well, if one were to keep reading in Matthew 25:31-33, they learn the difference between the sheep and the goat in the fact that the "righteous" (on the right, like the sheep on the right) helped the poor were told to inherit the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and those on the left, were told to depart into everlasting punishment were those who did not help the poor (Matthew 25:41-46). Helping the poor is the equivalent of loving your neighbor according to the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37). What is interesting is that in Luke 10, Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that one must love God and love their neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). This is confirmed even more in Matthew 19:17-19 when Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Which would be the moral law - which is the equivalent of loving your neighbor - See Romans 13:8-10).

Another place where we see the sheep defined is in John 10.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).

Again, this would be the sheep who followed or obeyed Jesus in this life.
These are the kind of sheep who will have eternal life and can never perish and cannot be plucked out of His hand.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28).

If one is not meeting the condition of being the kind of sheep in following Jesus, then one is not Jesus's sheep. For His sheep hear his voice.

Side Note:

As for 1 John 2:19, that says,

"...for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us..."

Again, these were gnostic believers that were never converted when they heard the gospel message and were sent out from the apostle's care. So this is not talking about regenerated believers and neither is it denying the possibility that a believer can fall away. The point here in this verse is that they were not of them to begin with and it is not about falling away.

Hammster · May 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
How is a sheep defined according to the Bible?

They aren’t defined. They are identified. Huge difference.

twin.spin · May 24, 2019

Can a believer become an unbeliever?
A: Yes
If so how?
A: God warns how:

Lk 8:13 "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." ~ Jesus
Jn 15:4-6 "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." ~ Jesus

Scriptures teaches the same concept, with the above in mind:

Mrk 13:13
"Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Matt 24:12-13 " Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
Heb 6:11
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized."
Rev 2:13
"I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me,"
1 Tim 1:18-19
Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.

Bible Highlighter · May 24, 2019

Hammster said:
They aren’t defined. They are identified. Huge difference.

define
[ dih-fahyn ]
verb (used with object), de·fined, de·fin·ing.

1. to state or set forth the meaning of (a word, phrase, etc.):
They disagreed on how to define “liberal.”
2. to explain or identify the nature or essential qualities of; describe:
to define judicial functions.

Source:
the definition of defined

Hammster · May 24, 2019

Jason0047 said:
define
[ dih-fahyn ]
verb (used with object), de·fined, de·fin·ing.

1. to state or set forth the meaning of (a word, phrase, etc.):
They disagreed on how to define “liberal.”
2. to explain or identify the nature or essential qualities of; describe:
to define judicial functions.

Source:
the definition of defined

I know what the word mean. If I’m separating sheep and goats, I don’t need to define them. I need to identify them. Sheep look and act like sheep. Goats look and act like goats.

CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

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Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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