Theory on the origin of evil

Radrook

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So God crucifying himself and being angry with himself is the issue? That God is both cause and purpose of his own plan? These are concepts that are extremely hard to conceive and dismissifg them by calling them a mystery doesn't solve the condundrum. IMHO
 
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The Righterzpen

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But with all due respect, it is disingenuous to use that as an excuse to be contentious, since even the parable of the vineyard itself is prophetic, saying what will happen according to God's plan.

Why is it disingenuous or contentious to say something happens according to God's plan? Either it's true or it isn't. "Facts don't care about your feelings." - Ben Shapiro.

esus, who is both the cause and purpose of God's plan, taught out of his own mouth that His Father did not crucify him, and that God was displeased with those who did crucify him according to God's plan.

Give me Bible verses for "the Father did not crucify him".

And now explain this passage:
Isaiah 53:
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Note - this has nothing to do with Satan.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Why you won't say what Jesus does say, is probably only because you're afraid of where accepting this narrative as true leads to.

And what does accepting that narrative as true lead to?

But that's okay. I already know that you do agree with me, since you say so here: "So just because Satan was the "contractor";"... Unless of course you now wish to recant that statement to avoid agreeing with me?

LOL - So this is really about your ego? If you want me to confirm that yes it is correct (to put this in the terms of 9/11). Satan was the guy who "flew the airplane into the building"; but he was by no means, the mastermind behind the plan!

There are two kinds of zealots in the world.
1. One's who want others to understand the Scripture so those can know God better.
2. Ones who want their egos stroked by being told they are right.
 
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Tone

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Why don't you put your responses in the thread where the audience can see the entirety of the conversation, not just what you pick and choose to copy and past into your blog?

Your actions are dishonest when you hide information. I addressed the Scripture verses you brought up directly, and then you say on your blog that I ignored them. That is dishonest.

I agree, because I don't want to sign in to that other place.
 
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Tone

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Well, disobedient angels sure did pass on their evil nature to their offspring the Nephilim, thats for sure

The angels don't multiply like we do, but I think they may in a way that is conducive with their nature.

Genesis 3:15
"15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

The serpent spread his seed via corrupt communication:

Ephesians 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."
 
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The Righterzpen

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The angels don't multiply like we do, but I think they may in a way that is conducive with their nature.

Genesis 3:15
"15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

The serpent spread his seed via corrupt communication:

Ephesians 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

Jesus stated that the leaders of his own nation were "children of the devil".

Angels don't produce literal seed. They can't. God made everything after its own kind. So, nephilim are not human / angelic hybrids. The "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" were believers and unbelievers - but make no mistake - they were all 100% human!

Jesus stated that marriage is given to the children of this world because of the reign of death. Thus the need to reproduce. (which by de facto eliminated Jesus from that command.) As much as He might have wanted to "be fruitful and multiply" He decided not doing so served God's greater purpose. So thus He "made himself a eunuch in order to reign in the Kingdom of God".

Getting back to angels though, If your "life span" is equal to that of all created time; because you don't die in the same way carbon based life does; there's no need to reproduce.

So, angels having an existence that is fundamentally different than ours; the only spirit (Spirit) entity that can create life is God! Angels can not impregnate human beings because they are not carbon based entities. We can't even cross carbon based life that is too different from each other; not to say cross a spirit entity with a fleshly one? Like I said; only God can create life!
 
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childeye 2

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Why is it disingenuous or contentious to say something happens according to God's plan? Either it's true or it isn't. "Facts don't care about your feelings." - Ben Shapiro.
With all forthrightness and with my best humility, it becomes a disingenuous contentiousness when it's a straw man argument constructed to avoid agreeing that God did not crucify His son in an act of wrath. I respectfully remind you that the record shows, that we’re not debating whether “something happens” according to God’s plan. We’re debating what that “something is that happened” according to God’s plan.


I agree that facts don't care about people's feelings, but we should. So let me put to rest your concerns by pointing out that clearly those words would find no conviction in me since I was never insisting that it was not God’s plan. The record clearly shows that we’re debating whether or not God crucified His son in an act of wrath that was meant for us.



Give me Bible verses for "the Father did not crucify him".

I gave you the parable of the vineyard as verifiable proof, and you simply constructed a semantic argument that since it was God’s plan, therefore God did it. So it would be futile to give more scripture when you can simply claim the same thing.


In all honesty, I would not think you are incapable of understanding that there's a difference between God sending His son to be crucified, and God actually doing the crucifying. Nonetheless allow me to explain that it's the same as when we send our soldiers to die in battle, but we aren’t the ones who kill them. Our enemies do.

And now explain this passage:
Isaiah 53:
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Note - this has nothing to do with Satan.
While I agree this scripture doesn’t mention Satan, still it would be prudent to point out that scripture identifies Satan as the power behind the worldly mindset, and that all those who do not do what is right in loving one another, are children of the devil. 1 John 4:4 , 1 John 3:10 .


With that in mind, I am eager to offer my interpretation. Let's first look at the three verses ahead of this one:


2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.



3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.


I think the above verses are saying that, in our worldly carnal vanity, Jesus was seen as ugly and therefore only worthy of our disdain. He was treated unjustly, as an outcast and with undue contempt. No one would befriend him and he was regarded as if he was the one smitten and afflicted by God, when in fact we were.


Wherefore when verse 5 says he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities, I believe this is expressing that because we are carnal, we project our own iniquities and sinfulness upon him, whereby he was wounded and bruised unjustly by a people who are cold hearted. Psalms 69:20 .


And when it says the chastisement of our peace was upon him and with his stripes we are healed; I believe it means that when/if we do finally see the incredible suffering he endured due only to our own depravity, and also… that still yet he forgives us, then he opens our eyes to loathe that which we have become and even washes away the very cause of our zeal for cruelty with his own stripes which we gave him. Hence he in part reconciles the enmity between mankind and God when we see our error.


6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
In a world of vanity where people are willing to do harm to others in order to succeed, people become disillusioned and distrustful, wherefore we all deal in iniquity as we look out only for our own selves. God sent Jesus to bear a cross that our iniquity placed upon him.


7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He accepted the role God had given him in this life without any complaint. 1 Peter 2:23


8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
I believe this is alluding to the New Testament. For the sake of defeating sin and death he suffered at the hands of the Jewish authorities (my people) under the Old Testament.
Psalms 22:16 , Matthew 26:66 , Acts 8:33 .


9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
He who was without deceit and who had never done violence, died the violent death of a wicked person, even because he spoke the Truth in a wicked world.


10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Even though God sent his own son into the hands of the wicked and made him to know grief and death, God will be pleased in the end. Because when his soul becomes an offering for sin, Jesus will see God’s seed sown in mankind and God’s pleasure will prosper with Jesus ruling in place of vanity. 1 Peter 2:21

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
God will see the painful effort of His son through which He persevered in Love and He will be satisfied through it. For God knows that with such knowledge and understanding, His son will justify many because he was willing to bear their iniquities. 1 Peter 3:18 , 1 Peter 4:1 , 1 Peter 5:10 , Romans 2:4 .

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Because he suffered the sins/wrongs of many even unto death and yet prayed for the transgressors, I will divide him a portion with the great. Hebrews 4:15



And what does accepting that narrative as true lead to?

That God did not send His son to feel His wrath in our stead. He sent His son into the world to sow the seed of an Eternal Love that returns good for evil, endures all things, is longsuffering, bares the sins of others, is gracious and forgiving, full of mercy and understanding, and gives Eternal Life.

Two narratives:
There’s a profound difference between saying God sent His son to show God’s longsuffering Love on a cross, and God sent His son to show the wrath of God on a cross.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Romans 8:15
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


LOL - So this is really about your ego?

No. It’s about building precept upon precept so as to establish sound deductive and inductive reasoning.

There are two kinds of zealots in the world.

1. One's who want others to understand the Scripture so those can know God better.

2. Ones who want their egos stroked by being told they are right.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The record clearly shows that we’re debating whether or not God crucified His son in an act of wrath that was meant for us.

So since this is what you state the debate is about. And since you will never agree that the crucifixion ultimately was about an act of wrath meant for us; (will you)? And since there are no scriptures I can ever point you to that will ever convince you of that: (are there)? There is no point in continuing this conversation.
 
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Radrook

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The angels don't multiply like we do, but I think they may in a way that is conducive with their nature.

Genesis 3:15
"15And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

The serpent spread his seed via corrupt communication:

Ephesians 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."
That is another type of reproduction, causing people to behave in a similar way that we do. That's why Jesus called liars the children of Satan, because they immitated him. About angels not being able to materialize human bodies as they did at Sodom, and other instances, I gues we disagree on that point.

True, they do produce spiritual offspring by having humans imitate their sinful behavior. That's why Jesus called liars children of the Devil.

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I guess we disagree on their ability to materialize bodies capable of mating and procreating materially.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Evil is simply the absence of God.
Dark is the absence of Light.

Isaiah 5:20 (NASB)
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
 
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Tone

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Evil is simply the absence of God.
Dark is the absence of Light.

Isaiah 5:20 (NASB)
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

GO RAMS!!!

:cheer:
 
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The Righterzpen

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Evil is simply the absence of God.
Dark is the absence of Light.

Isaiah 5:20 (NASB)
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

So your saying that if God didn't exist, the only thing that would exist is evil? Does that hold up to the rest of the Scripture?

So, if the lake of fire is the absences of God; does that mean, it is the same thing as the evil committed by created entities?

Isaiah 5:20 (KJV)
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put (or make) darkness (same word used in Genesis 1) for (that which shows forth) light, and (that which shows forth) light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

This had a very practical application as it related to Jesus and the leaders of the nation; as they said he performed miracles by the power of Satan.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
 
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Grip Docility

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With all forthrightness and with my best humility, it becomes a disingenuous contentiousness when it's a straw man argument constructed to avoid agreeing that God did not crucify His son in an act of wrath. I respectfully remind you that the record shows, that we’re not debating whether “something happens” according to God’s plan. We’re debating what that “something is that happened” according to God’s plan.


I agree that facts don't care about people's feelings, but we should. So let me put to rest your concerns by pointing out that clearly those words would find no conviction in me since I was never insisting that it was not God’s plan. The record clearly shows that we’re debating whether or not God crucified His son in an act of wrath that was meant for us.





I gave you the parable of the vineyard as verifiable proof, and you simply constructed a semantic argument that since it was God’s plan, therefore God did it. So it would be futile to give more scripture when you can simply claim the same thing.


In all honesty, I would not think you are incapable of understanding that there's a difference between God sending His son to be crucified, and God actually doing the crucifying. Nonetheless allow me to explain that it's the same as when we send our soldiers to die in battle, but we aren’t the ones who kill them. Our enemies do.

While I agree this scripture doesn’t mention Satan, still it would be prudent to point out that scripture identifies Satan as the power behind the worldly mindset, and that all those who do not do what is right in loving one another, are children of the devil. 1 John 4:4 , 1 John 3:10 .


With that in mind, I am eager to offer my interpretation. Let's first look at the three verses ahead of this one:


2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.



3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.


I think the above verses are saying that, in our worldly carnal vanity, Jesus was seen as ugly and therefore only worthy of our disdain. He was treated unjustly, as an outcast and with undue contempt. No one would befriend him and he was regarded as if he was the one smitten and afflicted by God, when in fact we were.


Wherefore when verse 5 says he was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities, I believe this is expressing that because we are carnal, we project our own iniquities and sinfulness upon him, whereby he was wounded and bruised unjustly by a people who are cold hearted. Psalms 69:20 .


And when it says the chastisement of our peace was upon him and with his stripes we are healed; I believe it means that when/if we do finally see the incredible suffering he endured due only to our own depravity, and also… that still yet he forgives us, then he opens our eyes to loathe that which we have become and even washes away the very cause of our zeal for cruelty with his own stripes which we gave him. Hence he in part reconciles the enmity between mankind and God when we see our error.


In a world of vanity where people are willing to do harm to others in order to succeed, people become disillusioned and distrustful, wherefore we all deal in iniquity as we look out only for our own selves. God sent Jesus to bear a cross that our iniquity placed upon him.


He accepted the role God had given him in this life without any complaint. 1 Peter 2:23


I believe this is alluding to the New Testament. For the sake of defeating sin and death he suffered at the hands of the Jewish authorities (my people) under the Old Testament.
Psalms 22:16 , Matthew 26:66 , Acts 8:33 .


He who was without deceit and who had never done violence, died the violent death of a wicked person, even because he spoke the Truth in a wicked world.


Even though God sent his own son into the hands of the wicked and made him to know grief and death, God will be pleased in the end. Because when his soul becomes an offering for sin, Jesus will see God’s seed sown in mankind and God’s pleasure will prosper with Jesus ruling in place of vanity. 1 Peter 2:21

God will see the painful effort of His son through which He persevered in Love and He will be satisfied through it. For God knows that with such knowledge and understanding, His son will justify many because he was willing to bear their iniquities. 1 Peter 3:18 , 1 Peter 4:1 , 1 Peter 5:10 , Romans 2:4 .




Because he suffered the sins/wrongs of many even unto death and yet prayed for the transgressors, I will divide him a portion with the great. Hebrews 4:15





That God did not send His son to feel His wrath in our stead. He sent His son into the world to sow the seed of an Eternal Love that returns good for evil, endures all things, is longsuffering, bares the sins of others, is gracious and forgiving, full of mercy and understanding, and gives Eternal Life.

Two narratives:
There’s a profound difference between saying God sent His son to show God’s longsuffering Love on a cross, and God sent His son to show the wrath of God on a cross.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Romans 8:15
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Hebrews 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.




No. It’s about building precept upon precept so as to establish sound deductive and inductive reasoning.



Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Clearly we know that the Son Revealed the Father... by His own words within the Gospels.

What you have written here is profound, true and painfully sincere.

I will say this, out of my hearts earnestness...

You have revealed the truth that we are wicked, with clarity... and how we are wicked.

John Essentially says men Hate the Light, because it reveals their deeds. Humanity Loves Power, Possession and Violence. It is no mistake that the Pharisees that Christ called Children of the Devil, revered those three things, above all.

What you are revealing, with your well written exposition... is exposing the work of the devil that seeks to defame God, and is taken to heart by many people.

Christ didn’t condemn sinners, nor rail against sinners. Christ didn’t condemn the heathens that surrounded Jerusalem that were of the Roman Government.

Christ did expose the Naked, Power hungry pride that cherished earthly possessions and Violence, while cloaking itself as a group of Carnally Righteous Theologians, That claimed to guard the Sanctity of God.

I think you’ll find that nothing has changed 2000 years from those days.

Same master, same type of followers and doing so, under disguise, that Scripture exposes to this very day.

All of Christ’s blessings to you, meek child of Jesus.
 
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childeye 2

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Clearly we know that the Son Revealed the Father... by His own words within the Gospels.

What you have written here is profound, true and painfully sincere.

I will say this, out of my hearts earnestness...

You have revealed the truth that we are wicked, with clarity... and how we are wicked.

John Essentially says men Hate the Light, because it reveals their deeds. Humanity Loves Power, Possession and Violence. It is no mistake that the Pharisees that Christ called Children of the Devil, revered those three things, above all.

What you are revealing, with your well written exposition... is exposing the work of the devil that seeks to defame God, and is taken to heart by many people.

Christ didn’t condemn sinners, nor rail against sinners. Christ didn’t condemn the heathens that surrounded Jerusalem that were of the Roman Government.

Christ did expose the Naked, Power hungry pride that cherished earthly possessions and Violence, while cloaking itself as a group of Carnally Righteous Theologians, That claimed to guard the Sanctity of God.

I think you’ll find that nothing has changed 2000 years from those days.

Same master, same type of followers and doing so, under disguise, that Scripture exposes to this very day.

All of Christ’s blessings to you, meek child of Jesus.
Fellowship is difficult to find with the enemy continuously seeking to cause division and to impede any common sense understanding. I therefore can't help but be truly thankful for your understanding and fellowship. But more for Christ than for me since he is the first fruits. And though my faith matches my confidence, my comfort seems more safeguarded in my shame for which I am grateful to God for knowing.
 
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The Righterzpen

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@Grip Docility, @childeye 2 - Neither of you have addressed the issue of what the atonement was really about. In order to atone for sin, the wrath of God had to be satisfied. There's no way around that. If people don't want to see that they deserve God's wrath; than they've missed the whole point of the cross.
 
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childeye 2

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@Grip Docility, @childeye 2 - Neither of you have addressed the issue of what the atonement was really about. In order to atone for sin, the wrath of God had to be satisfied. There's no way around that. If people don't want to see that they deserve God's wrath; than they've missed the whole point of the cross.
I believe I covered that adequately. I believe that we die because of sin. Jesus who was without sin died to pay the price for my sin that I might have life. His forfeiture of life was an act of Love. God was on the cross, He wasn't the lawless wicked people who with zealous cruelty crucified Him.

Frankly, it seems to me that your assertion that in order to atone for sin, the wrath of God had to be satisfied, is probably due to defining atonement strictly as God's wrath only being appeased through exercising it. Words like forbearance, longsuffering, understanding, mercy, forgiveness, are not being factored in as the attributes of God's Character.
 
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I believe I covered that adequately. I believe that we die because of sin. Jesus who was without sin died to pay the price for my sin that I might have life. His forfeiture of life was an act of Love. God was on the cross, He wasn't the lawless wicked people who with zealous cruelty crucified Him.

Frankly, it seems to me that your assertion that in order to atone for sin, the wrath of God had to be satisfied, is probably due to defining atonement strictly as God's wrath only being appeased through exercising it. Words like forbearance, longsuffering, understanding, mercy, forgiveness, are not being factored in as the attributes of God's Character.

Yet, you understand that wrath is coming don't you?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Romans 2:5

Get on BibleGateway.com and just look up the word "wrath". There's an awful lot of verses in the New Testament that talk about the wrath of God yet to come.

And what is the end result of the exercise of that wrath? It is people being condemned. And what happens, they get tossed in the lake of fire to pay for their sin. So if Jesus paid for a believer's sin; than Jesus endured wrath! There is no other way around that.
 
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childeye 2

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Yet, you understand that wrath is coming don't you?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Romans 2:5

Get on BibleGateway.com and just look up the word "wrath". There's an awful lot of verses in the New Testament that talk about the wrath of God yet to come.

And what is the end result of the exercise of that wrath? It is people being condemned. And what happens, they get tossed in the lake of fire to pay for their sin. So if Jesus paid for a believer's sin; than Jesus endured wrath! There is no other way around that.
Yes I understand that wrath is coming. I already posted that when I spoke about the vials of God's wrath to be poured out upon the earth. But it's not supposed to be for believers. Our faith is counted as righteousness, and we are supposed to be saved from the wrath to come.

However, that doesn't mean Jesus endured God's wrath for us. That's kind of saying God can't simply forgive, when Jesus taught otherwise. The Christ is God incarnate. Notice the prostitute, and though her sins were many, yet Jesus said because her Love was great, therefore her sins are forgiven. That sounds like grace to me and not wrath.

We've been this route already. You're going to say that God can only forgive believers because He worked off His wrath during the crucifixion. That's like me saying I can only forgive my wife for adultery after I torture my son to death. I don't see that as forgiveness.

Which is why I believe that when we believe Christ is just like the Father, forgiving them who crucify him, only then do we escape God's wrath and partake of the Spirit of Christ. Have you ever considered that God's wrath comes because we won't believe He's kind and merciful and forgiving?

Romans 1 says that long ago mankind would suppress the Truth concerning Who He is, and they were without excuse because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Because we were unthankful for His Wisdom. We thought ourselves wise and became fools. We changed the incorruptible Image of God into an image like unto corruptible man. Wherefore God gave us over to the lusts of our flesh to become abominations as recompense for turning the Truth of God into a lie. So if now today, you're wondering Who God is or what He is like, simply look at the long list of what we become without Him in Romans 1, and see what He is not.
 
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Yes I understand that wrath is coming. I already posted that when I spoke about the vials of God's wrath to be poured out upon the earth. But it's not supposed to be for believers. Our faith is counted as righteousness, and we are supposed to be saved from the wrath to come.

However, that doesn't mean Jesus endured God's wrath for us. That's kind of saying God can't simply forgive, when Jesus taught otherwise. The Christ is God incarnate. Notice the prostitute, and though her sins were many, yet Jesus said because her Love was great, therefore her sins are forgiven. That sounds like grace to me and not wrath.

We've been this route already. You're going to say that God can only forgive believers because He worked off His wrath during the crucifixion. That's like me saying I can only forgive my wife for adultery after I torture my son to death. I don't see that as forgiveness.

Which is why I believe that when we believe Christ is just like the Father, forgiving them who crucify him, only then do we escape God's wrath and partake of the Spirit of Christ. Have you ever considered that God's wrath comes because we won't believe He's kind and merciful and forgiving?

Romans 1 says that long ago mankind would suppress the Truth concerning Who He is, and they were without excuse because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Because we were unthankful for His Wisdom. We thought ourselves wise and became fools. We changed the incorruptible Image of God into an image like unto corruptible man. Wherefore God gave us over to the lusts of our flesh to become abominations as recompense for turning the Truth of God into a lie. So if now today, you're wondering Who God is or what He is like, simply look at the long list of what we become without Him in Romans 1, and see what He is not.

The Scripture is very clear that God's wrath abides because of sin, not because people fail to see God as "a nice guy". The penalty for sin is eternal destruction. And that doesn't come simply because people fail to see God as a "nice guy". On the contrary most unbelievers subscribe to your understanding of God. Oh He's kind and He's forgiving and He won't ever hold me accountable for the evil I've done. That's a lie that comes from Satan, because God will hold people accountable.

Now, why can't God "just forgive". And it's true that God can't "just forgive". And Jesus did NOT teach that He could! And we know this is the case because if God could have "just forgiven"; Jesus would not have been crucified. Yet Jesus says: For this reason He's come. Hebrews 10:7-10

So, sin is atoned for either way. Either Christ paid for your sin or you pay for your own. Either way, law (which is an expression of God's holiness) demands payment for transgression.

No one just "loves God". The prostitute (and anyone else) didn't just "love Jesus" because he was a "nice guy". 1 John 4 says that those who love God is because God first loved them and right there in the middle of that passage is says:

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
vs 10

Right there is the reason anyone loved God - is because He paid for their sin!

People don't "love God" automatically. If you do in deed love God; it's not something that springs out of you naturally. Sin is what causes humanity to run the other way. There are those of humanity who are afraid of God's wrath (and rightfully we should be) but the actual reason people won't repent is that they'd rather have their sin.

So, your issue appears to be that you don't want to believe that God could (and rightfully should) be angry at you. I love Jesus so therefore God isn't mad at me. Yet you seem to have no clue as to what Jesus actually did! Is the real issue that you don't believe your a sinner who deserves wrath and needs to be atoned for?
 
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