Abortion: The Real Reason Why States are Passing Laws Against It

tall73 · May 24, 2019

Sparagmos said:
I don’t agree with your analysis. HUMAN ERROR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THOSE FAILURES.

It is not my analysis. Here, you can see it from Planned Parenthood if you like:

Birth Control Methods & Options | Types of Birth Control

ChicanaRose · May 24, 2019

Sparagmos said:
People aren’t always conscious of their motives. I’m fine with you saying I think you are being dishonest, but I don’t see it quite that way. I used to be pro-life. Those ideas were fed to me right along with sexual shame, judgement, and sexism. They went hand in hand.

I am still pro-life, but I think OP's and your points are valid, as they are not attacking a prolife position per se, but some problematic aspects of the approach.

tall73 · May 24, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
I am still pro-life, but I think OP's and your points are valid, as they are not attacking a prolife position per se, but some problematic aspects of the approach.

The very purpose of the OP is to suggest that for many pro-lifers it is all about imposing a theocracy. That is in fact attacking those who take the pro-life stance. But it is not in fact clear that most pro-life adherents want a theocracy.

Sparagmos · May 24, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
I am still pro-life, but I think OP's and your points are valid, as they are not attacking a prolife position per se, but some problematic aspects of the approach.

We could cut the abortion rate in half if we worked together on getting all teenagers and adults access to free contraceptives along with good sex education.

tall73 · May 24, 2019

Sparagmos said:
We could cut the abortion rate in half if we worked together on getting all teenagers and adults access to free contraceptives along with good sex education.

The CDC notes that the rate of students indicating sexual activity is going down, at 39.5 percent in 2017 nationwide having sex at some point through high school. Even accounting for under-reporting, that means the majority are likely not having sex, and the numbers of those who are is going down.

Of those having sex only 13.8 percent were not using contraception.

https://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/data/yrbs/pdf/2017/ss6708.pdf

Most are not having sex. Most who are having sex are using contraception.

But contraception has a failure rate.

tall73 · May 24, 2019

Sparagmos said:
Yes on the poverty comment. Pro-lifers, for the most part, OPPOSE measures that help the poor.

Do you have hard numbers on that? It may be that is the case. Certainly among republicans that could be the case. But it may also be that pro-lifers are not monolithic.

Not David · May 24, 2019

jayem said:
But once in a while it's needed for health reasons. Which is why the moral calculus is not quite that of homicide. In what other situation would it be even remotely tolerable to kill one innocent human being in order to save the life of another one?

(Actually, I can think of one.)

Interesting how people try to use an argument that is based on less than 5% of abortions. And the doctors are not playing "Saw" in trying to decide whom to save. Unfortunately, a lot of times, the unborn won't survive the procedure, not because the doctors are trying to kill them but as an inevitable result of the procedure.

Not David · May 24, 2019

Pommer said:
What are your views on “excess embryos”, left over from in vitro fertilization?
Are they each all “a human being”?

Since they are more than one, they are human beings not "a human being".

tall73 · May 24, 2019

Sparagmos said:
I don’t agree with your analysis. HUMAN ERROR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THOSE FAILURES..

Understanding contraceptive failure

The following shows the number of women out of 100 who will become pregnant in one year, by method. The first number is for typical use, and the second is for perfect use:

Spermicides 29/8
Withdrawal 27/4
Sponge
Parous women 32/20
Nulliparous women 16/9
Diaphragm 16/6
Condom
Female 21/5
Male 15/2
Combined pill and progestin-only pill 8/0.3
Patch 8/0.3
Ring 8/0.3
3-month injectable 3/0.3
Female sterilization 0.5/0.5
Male sterilization 0.15/0.10

St_Worm2 · May 24, 2019

Fantine said:
While I cannot be 100% sure of any legislator's motives (and neither can you--or anyone else) I judge their real intentions by their commitment to serving the common good through the legislative process.

The legislators I follow most closely are those in my own state (shudder). I track their actions through a statewide advocacy group--and the legislators who vote "pro-life" have an appalling record on serving the common good.

I am the legislative liaison for a progressive Christian women's group that is active in civil rights. I have also been a regional rep for the anti-death penalty group in our state. It's like Sisyphus rolling a stone uphill to influence these legislators. No matter how hard I look for barely discernable indications that they care about the rest of us, I can't find any. And so no, I don't believe they vote pro-life because they care about babies. They care about getting votes from social conservatives. That's all.

Hi Fantine, I wasn't judging anyone's "intentions" in my last post, I was stating the main reason that our Pro-Life Senate and House members (the ones I've heard/read anyway) give for opposing abortion.

Could they be lying :scratch:

. NEVER .. well, unless you know of a Republican or a Democrat in the history of our country who has lied, of course

Question (as a bit of an aside), if the Pro-Life legislators in your State have such an appalling record on "serving the common good", then why did the people of your state elect them in the first place, and why do they re-elect them?

Finally, if the Pro-Life politicians in your State oppose/fail to support some of the things that you believe contribute to the common good (such as anti-death penalty legislation), how does that prove that they are liars when it comes to their stated reasons for opposing abortion?

Thanks!

--David

Sparagmos · May 24, 2019

tall73 said:
Understanding contraceptive failure

The following shows the number of women out of 100 who will become pregnant in one year, by method. The first number is for typical use, and the second is for perfect use:

Spermicides 29/8
Withdrawal 27/4
Sponge
Parous women 32/20
Nulliparous women 16/9
Diaphragm 16/6
Condom
Female 21/5
Male 15/2
Combined pill and progestin-only pill 8/0.3
Patch 8/0.3
Ring 8/0.3
3-month injectable 3/0.3
Female sterilization 0.5/0.5
Male sterilization 0.15/0.10

Those numbers look great. When combined with the rhythm method, or using double protection, the risk of pregnancy is very low. Look at the difference proper use makes!

jayem · May 24, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Interesting how people try to use an argument that is based on less than 5% of abortions. And the doctors are not playing "Saw" in trying to decide whom to save. Unfortunately, a lot of times, the unborn won't survive the procedure, not because the doctors are trying to kill them but as an inevitable result of the procedure.

Do numbers make a difference when invoking a moral argument? If you accept that terminating a pregnancy, in some uncommon circumstances, may be necessary to preserve the mother's life, then you're admitting that when push comes to shove, the already born are a little higher on the moral spectrum than the unborn.

USincognito · May 24, 2019

Pommer said:
Relationship status can be a proxy for exposure to sexual activity, and can also influence individuals’ and couples’ childbearing goals. The distribution of abortion patients and abortion indices varied by relationship status. About 14% of abortion patients were married, and an additional 31% were cohabiting. A slight majority were not living with a partner in the month they became pregnant (46% had never married and 9% had been previously married).

Source:Characteristics of U.S. Abortion Patients in 2014 and Changes Since 2008

Thanks. I'm probably thinking of statistics from 20 years ago.

rjs330 · May 24, 2019

zephcom said:
I don't completely disagree with you. -I- think women desperately need support and help when they find themselves in that situation. I think the entire bunch of people who dislike abortion HAVE to get together and solve the issues which make a woman consider an abortion.

I don't think making a criminal out a woman is going help her in any way whatsoever. If she STILL thinks abortion is her best or only option, she will just break the law and hope she doesn't get caught. And she will end up in a back alley somewhere where her danger level goes off the scale.

Desperate people will take desperate measures. Surely you know that to be true.

I guess we shouldn't worry about some murders either, because the murderer may believe there is no other way out and will just break the law anyway.

rjs330 · May 24, 2019

zephcom said:
I truly do appreciate what you have done for human lives. And if you were the only person in this country who is Christian you would make my comments completely wrong. But let's face it, Christians flock to the military in such quantities the religion even sends preachers to the military to preach to them. I doubt those preachers are telling them to respect all lives and don't kill people.

And there are a LOT of Christians who do live in states with capital punishment. In fact, I think I just read that Alabama just executed another person.

I point out that, in general, human life is not precious to Christians. They just don't seem to have the passion for keeping people alive that they do for getting them alive.

You make a false equivalency.

rjs330 · May 24, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Trust me. Women not only have sex with men they don't like, but with men they don't even know.

Men too! And probably more of them.

rjs330 · May 24, 2019

tall73 said:
The very purpose of the OP is to suggest that for many pro-lifers it is all about imposing a theocracy. That is in fact attacking those who take the pro-life stance. But it is not in fact clear that most pro-life adherents want a theocracy.

Citation needed

rjs330 · May 24, 2019

Sparagmos said:
We could cut the abortion rate in half if we worked together on getting all teenagers and adults access to free contraceptives along with good sex education.

Oh wait... We already have that.

USincognito · May 24, 2019

No Username Found said:
@thecolorsblend what do you think in regards to post #30?

Since there are three or four others who have expressed the same or similar sentiments, you might want to expand the scope of your inquiry.

W2L · May 24, 2019

Im glad my mother didnt abort me. Also i dont believe in a theocracy.

W2L · May 24, 2019

I believe God created us, and so i have trouble with humans deciding who is born and who is not. Thats my motive. But i dont believe in a theocracy. Im divided in my thinking but cannot support abortion.

Abortion: The Real Reason Why States are Passing Laws Against It

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