CAN A BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM GOD AND BECOME AN UNBELIEVER?

aiki · May 23, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi my brothers and sisters. Can a believer become an unbeliever?

No, not a genuinely born-again believer, indwelt by God's Spirit and fundamentally transformed by him. (2 Corinthians 5:17) There are, of course, many "tares" in the Church (Matthew 13:24-43), false converts, or "false brethren," as Paul the apostle called them (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4), who appear to be saved but because they aren't truly saved, eventually depart from the faith. (1 John 2:19)

LoveGodsWord said:
I believed we can all fall away from believing and following God's Word because this is what the scriptures teach...

One can certainly know about God and be familiar with Scripture and not be actually born-again. From this sort of thing many professing to be believers "fall away."

LoveGodsWord said:
1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers.

Uh, no. Those who "went out from us" were "anti-christs," or those possessed of the spirit of anti-christ. And they "went out," not from the truth, but "from us," that is, the Body of Believers, the Church. In doing so they revealed that they were, in fact, anti-christs and not "of us," that is, not of the Church, the fellowship of genuinely saved people. John, then, is saying that these false believers within the Church, these anti-christs, finally revealed the falsity of their faith by departing from the Church. He points out that if they had been truly saved, if they had been "of us," they would have remained within the Body of Believers. What is in view, then, in John's words isn't believers falling away from the truth but false believers departing from the Church.

LoveGodsWord said:
No longer believing God's Word they went out from us.

This isn't what John says, though. He doesn't say they believed God's word and then didn't but, instead, calls those who departed the Church "anti-christs" who because they were anti-christs (as opposed to actual born-again Christians) left the fellowship of genuine believers.

LoveGodsWord said:
The very scripture you supply disagrees with your interpretation of it showing that anyone can FALL AWAY from the truth and no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD as shown in the very scriptures you quote or ignore...

??? You haven't shown this yet...

LoveGodsWord said:
HEBREWS 3:7-19
[7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

When the Israelites doubted God's promises and were kept from the Promised Land as a consequence, did God utterly reject His Chosen People? Did He cast them off and leave them to their own devices? No. He didn't. He continued to be their God and provide and protect them in the wilderness. The Israelites may have departed from God in their unbelief, but He did not depart from them! How much more is He committed to the born-again believer whom He has adopted as a "joint-heir" with Christ? MUCH more! This passage, then, does not help your saved-and-lost false doctrine.

LoveGodsWord said:
2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This passage doesn't say anything about who, exactly, falls away. It is reading into the passage what isn't there to say those who fall away are genuine born-again believers. It seems much more likely that false converts are in view here.

LoveGodsWord said:
2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

This confirms what I just suggested. Those who fall away are those who were not saved. That makes a lot more sense than the idea that truly born-again folk departed from the faith. These passages, then, don't help a saved-and-lost point of view.

LoveGodsWord said:
HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Is one who is "enlightened" also necessarily saved? No. I know of people who understand the Gospel very well, who can lay it all out for me quite clearly, but who are not saved. They possess some measure of intellectual enlightenment but their hearts remain far from God. That this kind of superficial enlightenment is in view is supported by the fact that those being described had only "tasted of the heavenly gift." The idea of a taste of something suggests only a partial, limited experience of it. Jesus "tasted" the vinegar on the sponge lifted to his lips while he was dying on the cross. But as soon as he had, he didn't suck thirstily at the vinegar, but immediately rejected it. When I say I've tasted something, generally I mean I have had only a small amount of it. This, I think, is the sense in which "tasted" is used in the passage above from Hebrews 6 which in turn suggests that the enlightenment mentioned was only superficial or partial, too.

The word "partaker" in connection with the Holy Spirit is also, I think, referring to a second-hand partnering with the Spirit in his work in and through the Church. Many "tares" participate in the life and ministries of the Church. They don't have the Spirit indwelling them, but they still do partner with the Spirit by participating with genuine believers who are indwelt by him in their labours for God. That this is likely the way in which they have been "partakers" of the Spirit is confirmed by their falling away from the Gospel and the Church. As the apostle John wrote, "if they had been of us they would have continued with us."

LoveGodsWord said:
[17], These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[18], For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19], While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yep seems Peter thinks that you can know and follow God and then turn back from God to follow SIN and leave God....

As your long quotation reveals, false teachers/prophets are in view in Peter's words, not genuine born-again believers. Verse 20 continues to speak of those who Peter had just said were "servants of corruption" and "wells without water" to whom is reserved the "blackness of darkness forever." How you can think, then, that Peter is describing genuine born-again believers in the section you've all-capped and bolded is beyond me. You might also pay attention to the word "if" at the beginning of verse 20. It could be construed as introducing an entirely speculative or potential situation, not a real one. He writes that if these lost false teachers escaped the pollutions of the world, etc., not that they actually had.

You'll notice that Peter speaks only of knowledge in the last three verses of your quotation from 2 Peter 2. He doesn't say they were saved, or born-again, or converted, or redeemed, only that if through the knowledge of Christ - not a saving faith in him - they had escaped the pollutions of the world but are entangled in them again, their end is worse than their beginning. What does it mean to "escape the pollutions of the world"? Does this refer to genuine salvation? I don't think so. I've known false converts who lived in a Christian manner, separate from the world in many ways. They could be said to have "escaped the pollutions of the world," avoiding bars, and strip clubs, casinos, even movie theatres, but it would have been wrong to say they were therefore saved.

Peter goes on to focus on what these people knew, rather than on what they had truly come to believe and put their trust in. (Verse 21) He doesn't ever indicate that he is talking about genuinely born-again people, only those who knew the way of righteousness. As I already noted, I know of a number of people who are not saved but who know the Gospel quite well. Their knowledge does not equate to salvation. I think this is true of those false teachers Peter described in the passage you've quoted above. He was not speaking of true believers who abandoned their faith.

LoveGodsWord said:
ACTS 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Don't see any mention of born-again believers here. Your bolded bit only speaks of false teachers drawing to themselves followers - disciples. It doesn't say these followers were born-again believers, or, if they were, that they were therefore unsaved.

I've run out of time, I'm afraid, and will have to address the rest of your post later. Just scanning quickly through the remaining quotations you've put forward, it seems you continue to fall prey to eisegesis or the misapplication of Scripture.

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

aiki said:
No, not a genuinely born-again believer, indwelt by God's Spirit and fundamentally transformed by him. (2 Corinthians 5:17) There are, of course, many "tares" in the Church (Matthew 13:24-43), false converts, or "false brethren," as Paul the apostle called them (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4), who appear to be saved but because they aren't truly saved, eventually depart from the faith. (1 John 2:19)

One can certainly know about God and be familiar with Scripture and not be actually born-again. From this sort of thing many professing to be believers "fall away."

Uh, no. Those who "went out from us" were "anti-christs," or those possessed of the spirit of anti-christ. And they "went out," not from the truth, but "from us," that is, the Body of Believers, the Church. In doing so they revealed that they were, in fact, anti-christs and not "of us," that is, not of the Church, the fellowship of genuinely saved people. John, then, is saying that these false believers within the Church, these anti-christs, finally revealed the falsity of their faith by departing from the Church. He points out that if they had been truly saved, if they had been "of us," they would have remained within the Body of Believers. What is in view, then, in John's words isn't believers falling away from the truth but false believers departing from the Church.

This isn't what John says, though. He doesn't say they believed God's word and then didn't but, instead, calls those who departed the Church "anti-christs" who because they were anti-christs (as opposed to actual born-again Christians) left the fellowship of genuine believers.

??? You haven't shown this yet...

When the Israelites doubted God's promises and were kept from the Promised Land as a consequence, did God utterly reject His Chosen People? Did He cast them off and leave them to their own devices? No. He didn't. He continued to be their God and provide and protect them in the wilderness. The Israelites may have departed from God in their unbelief, but He did not depart from them! How much more is He committed to the born-again believer whom He has adopted as a "joint-heir" with Christ? MUCH more! This passage, then, does not help your saved-and-lost false doctrine.

This passage doesn't say anything about who, exactly, falls away. It is reading into the passage what isn't there to say those who fall away are genuine born-again believers. It seems much more likely that false converts are in view here.

This confirms what I just suggested. Those who fall away are those who were not saved. That makes a lot more sense than the idea that truly born-again folk departed from the faith. These passages, then, don't help a saved-and-lost point of view.

Is one who is "enlightened" also necessarily saved? No. I know of people who understand the Gospel very well, who can lay it all out for me quite clearly, but who are not saved. They possess some measure of intellectual enlightenment but their hearts remain far from God. That this kind of superficial enlightenment is in view is supported by the fact that those being described had only "tasted of the heavenly gift." The idea of a taste of something suggests only a partial, limited experience of it. Jesus "tasted" the vinegar on the sponge lifted to his lips while he was dying on the cross. But as soon as he had, he didn't suck thirstily at the vinegar, but immediately rejected it. When I say I've tasted something, generally I mean I have had only a small amount of it. This, I think, is the sense in which "tasted" is used in the passage above from Hebrews 6 which in turn suggests that the enlightenment mentioned was only superficial or partial, too.

The word "partaker" in connection with the Holy Spirit is also, I think, referring to a second-hand partnering with the Spirit in his work in and through the Church. Many "tares" participate in the life and ministries of the Church. They don't have the Spirit indwelling them, but they still do partner with the Spirit by participating with genuine believers who are indwelt by him in their labours for God. That this is likely the way in which they have been "partakers" of the Spirit is confirmed by their falling away from the Gospel and the Church. As the apostle John wrote, "if they had been of us they would have continued with us."

As your long quotation reveals, false teachers/prophets are in view in Peter's words, not genuine born-again believers. Verse 20 continues to speak of those who Peter had just said were "servants of corruption" and "wells without water" to whom is reserved the "blackness of darkness forever." How you can think, then, that Peter is describing genuine born-again believers in the section you've all-capped and bolded is beyond me. You might also pay attention to the word "if" at the beginning of verse 20. It could be construed as introducing an entirely speculative or potential situation, not a real one. He writes that if these lost false teachers escaped the pollutions of the world, etc., not that they actually had.

You'll notice that Peter speaks only of knowledge in the last three verses of your quotation from 2 Peter 2. He doesn't say they were saved, or born-again, or converted, or redeemed, only that if through the knowledge of Christ - not a saving faith in him - they had escaped the pollutions of the world but are entangled in them again, their end is worse than their beginning. What does it mean to "escape the pollutions of the world"? Does this refer to genuine salvation? I don't think so. I've known false converts who lived in a Christian manner, separate from the world in many ways. They could be said to have "escaped the pollutions of the world," avoiding bars, and strip clubs, casinos, even movie theatres, but it would have been wrong to say they were therefore saved.

Peter goes on to focus on what these people knew, rather than on what they had truly come to believe and put their trust in. (Verse 21) He doesn't ever indicate that he is talking about genuinely born-again people, only those who knew the way of righteousness. As I already noted, I know of a number of people who are not saved but who know the Gospel quite well. Their knowledge does not equate to salvation. I think this is true of those false teachers Peter described in the passage you've quoted above. He was not speaking of true believers who abandoned their faith.

Don't see any mention of born-again believers here. Your bolded bit only speaks of false teachers drawing to themselves followers - disciples. It doesn't say these followers were born-again believers, or, if they were, that they were therefore unsaved.

I've run out of time, I'm afraid, and will have to address the rest of your post later. Just scanning quickly through the remaining quotations you've put forward, it seems you continue to fall prey to eisegesis or the misapplication of Scripture.

Okay... you worded this so well, I’m throwing some Mahalia Jackson in... :oldthumbsup:

klutedavid · May 23, 2019

View attachment 257090 Hello world.

klutedavid · May 23, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Okay... you worded this so well, I’m throwing some Mahalia Jackson in...

How do you post a picture?

Grip Docility · May 24, 2019

klutedavid said:
How do you post a picture?

Go to a pictures URL... and copy it. Then use the picture icon... at the top of your post frame. Then paste the picture url into the window that pops up.

Peter J Barban · May 24, 2019

In short, I believe that a believer could fall away due to unbelief, but either God prevents that or he makes it extremely difficult to fall away.

No one accidentally falls away and no one falls away due to repeated "weakness" or falling into temptation. Falling away must be a deliberate choice to reject the saving covenant of God.

klutedavid · May 24, 2019

klutedavid · May 24, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Go to a pictures URL... and copy it. Then use the picture icon... at the top of your post frame. Then paste the picture url into the window that pops up.

It worked GD thanks for the help.

klutedavid · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello brother David, nice to see you. Good scriptures. For me these scriptures are talking about how God's WORD is received and those who keep it and those who depart from it and some of the reasons why people depart from God's Word after they had received it. How do you understand these scriptures? BTW nice scriptures very relavant to the OP. Thanks for sharing.

I read those verses as they are written.

I never apply an interpretation to any text in the scripture.

Grip Docility · May 24, 2019

klutedavid said:
It worked GD thanks for the help.

You’re welcome, Klutedavid

Hammster · May 24, 2019

klutedavid said:
I read those verses as they are written.

I never apply an interpretation to any text in the scripture.

That’s not possible.

NothingIsImpossible · May 24, 2019

Yes. This is why I get annoyed at people that teach "Once Saved, Always Saved".

Presbyterian Continuist · May 24, 2019

Hammster said:
That’s not possible.

i agree. We automatically interpret any Scripture on the basis of our culture, theological position, and mind-set. Instead of seeking to see how the writer in the First Century wrote what he wrote in the context of his culture, making his points on his own mind-set about the things of God, and how First Century Christians would understand the points he is making. That is called Exegesis.

But, then we have to consider whether what is written that is cultural to the time in which it was written, or whether it is transcultural, and how we could determine what is written for our education to give us a general picture, and what is written to us in the same way it was written to the First Century Christians. That is called Hermeneutics.

The problem is that a person can take a Scripture and bypass the first step and go straight to the second step and then come to ridiculous conclusions about some passages of Scripture like, "A woman must have her head covered when she prays and prophesies in church", when the mind-set of the person interpreting it is Cessationist and doesn't believe in modern prophecy. Therefore that particular verse is meaningless to that person.

Also, the verses about women keeping silence in church and the Timothy verses about women not being able to teach, for a First Century Christian would be in the context that women were the possession of men, not educated, and did not have the same freedoms as women today. Therefore, the verses are not transcultural, because women today are educated, and have recognised ministries which are fully supported by the Holy Spirit, and so are nothing like the women of the First Century. I think that Paul, today, would freely acknowledge that culture has changed and that he would welcome women having ministries and sharing church leadership. But what is transcultural is either women or men usurping the leadership in any church.

So, Exegesis is studying what the passage says in its own context, but Hermeneutics is interpreting the same passage according to our culture and mind-set, 2000 years later, when our culture is nothing like First Century culture where some passages are totally meaningless to us, like eating meat sacrificed to idols and Christians going to pagan temples, when in our societies, unlike First Century Christians, the instances of doing those things would never happen.

Presbyterian Continuist · May 24, 2019

klutedavid said:
I read those verses as they are written.

I never apply an interpretation to any text in the scripture.

So you can eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as it doesn't offend weaker Christians? What if there are no pagan temples where food is sacrificed to idols in your city? How can that Scripture have any meaning for you?

What about women having to have their heads covered when praying or prophesying? If your church doesn't have prophecy, that Scripture has no meaning and therefore it can't apply.

If you don't believe that women can speak in church and have a leadership or ministry role, are you going to impose First Century culture on women and deny them an education, not allow them to be employed, and have to always stay at home as the possession of their husbands? So, if you believe those verses as they are written, and try to teach them as they are written, you would be teaching 2000 year old First Century culture, which does not exist today. If you hold to that teaching, you might never find a wife, because no woman would want to have a 2000 year old restrictive culture imposed on them.

Neogaia777 · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi my brothers and sisters. Can a believer become an unbeliever? If so how? I believed we can all fall away from believing and following God's Word because this is what the scriptures teach...

Can you know God and fall away?

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer belied and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (Believers and followers of Gods' Word). If they contunued with us then then would be continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word and would have been of us. No longer believing God's Word they went out from us. If you no longer believe and follow the truth of God's Word to the end then you are no longer of us. The very scripture you supply disagrees with your interpretation of it showing that anyone can FALL AWAY from the truth and no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD as shown in the very scriptures you quote or ignore...

HEBREWS 3:7-19
[7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
[12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 PETER 2:1-22
[1], But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
[2], And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[3], And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
[4], For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;
[5], And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
[6], And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample to those that after should live ungodly;
[7], And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[8], For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;
[9], The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished:
[10], But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
[11], Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
[12], But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[13], And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
[14], Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

[15], WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

[16], But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbade the madness of the prophet.
[17], These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[18], For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19], While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20], FOR IT THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Yep seems Peter thinks that you can know and follow God and then turn back from God to follow SIN and leave God....

links to....

HEBREWS 10:26-31
26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

GALATIANS 1:6
[6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

ACTS 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

HEBREWS 10:35-38
[35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Seems both PAUL and PETER agree together that you can KNOW GOd have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

ISAIAH 59:1-3
1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOSHUA 23:11-13
[11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
[12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
[13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Now Joshua is joining Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

NUMBERS 14:43
[43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, the Lord will not be with you.”

Now you can also add Moses to Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JAMES 5:19
[19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Seems also James agrees with Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JEREMIAH 3:8-14
[8], And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[9], And it came to pass through the lightness of her prostitution, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
[10], And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to me with her whole heart, but feignedly, said the LORD.
[11], And the LORD said to me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
[12], Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN FAITHLESS ISRAEL, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the Lord; I will not be angry forever.
[13], Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the LORD your God, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed my voice, said the LORD.
[14], TURN O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, said the LORD; for I am married to you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

Looks like we can add Jeremaiah to James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOEL 2:13
[13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

LUKE 8:13
[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Well here so far we have Joel, Jeremaiah, James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter, Luke and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and FALL AWAY back into SIN.

.................

What do you think can we fall away from believing and following God's WORD? If so how?

Thanks for sharing and God bless you all as you continue seeking JESUS through His WORD!

What sin, or what specific type of sin, or what kinds of "sins" (plural) does one (have to or must) commit to fall away...?

God Bless!

Mountainmanbob · May 24, 2019

Nope, Jesus will not lose one of his sheep.

Some may play the game but, He never knew them and they (truly) never knew Him.

It ain't rocket science.

M-Bob

Neogaia777 · May 24, 2019

The verse that mentions the "falling away" is not falling away from the faith specifically, but "Grace", or the Grace of God, and go back to the Law and works idea and/or philosophy...

That's why they were with them and went out from them and fell (or turned) away, ect. Because they ultimately rejected the Grace of God for Law and works based idea(s) or philosophy(s), systems, ect... or works and earning it or deserving it or being good enough for it, with their work or works or due to and/or because of their work or works, ect, cause they think that's how you "get it", ect... As if you have to "get" or "earn it" ect...

God Bless!

Servant of Yeshua · May 24, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi brother crossnotes, nice to see you and thankyou for sharing your view. For me these scriptures are a good example of what it means not to be "OF US". They were not of us because they went out from us. Another words they are not of us because they no longer believe and follow God's WORD. The scriptures here do not really say if they were born again or not but HEBREWS 6:4-8 seems to suggest these people were born again who also departed from the faith. Thanks for sharing brother.

God bless.

I apologize that I honestly have not gotten to read many of the replies. Once school is out I will have more time!! Jesus only had to die once on the cross for us. This is not a topic I normally would engage in since it could just go in circles. Romans 10:9 givens us a sense of what it takes to be saved. Also the thief on the cross repented of his sins and believed who Jesus was. From the disciples perspective, they would have thought Judas fell away. But God has revealed in his word that Judas did not fall away, for he was never born again. Sadly, there are many fakers and there are also those who have deceived themselves because they want to please people so badly. As when Christ says in Matthew 7:21-23. There will be those who say "Lord, Lord..." who were even doing miracles in Jesus name. I guess I would say that the main thing we need to do as Christians, is:

1st) Repent of ALL sin and trust only in Jesus death for you on the cross to save you. Spend time with in the Word praying for wisdom from the Lord everyday, do everything here on earth as doing it for the Lord and not for man, ask God to reveal anything in our hearts that would prevent us from true communion with Him, and pray for Him to show us our blind spots and to give us wisdom on how to speak truth in love to others.
2nd) Pray for those we love and that God would show us who are not born again in spirit and truth.

Many who think that they love the Lord with all their heart, are simply "in like" with Him which is a big difference which will be the difference between heaven and hell. Loving with ALL your heart, soul, mind and strength will only come when one is born again. There will be no denying the change that it in your heart. You are a new creation. Once can assume since Jesus told the thief that today He would be with him in paradise, that the thief met all the requirements to be saved. It seems simple...yet we can trust scripture in Matthew 7:13-14 that many go on the road to destruction. Peace to all of you as you follow the Lord today.

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
What sin, or what specific type of sin, or what kinds of "sins" (plural) does one (have to or must) commit to fall away...?
God Bless!

Unrepentant

LoveGodsWord · May 24, 2019

Mountainmanbob said:
Nope, Jesus will not lose one of his sheep.

Some may play the game but, He never knew them and they (truly) never knew Him.

It ain't rocket science.

M-Bob

Of course God does not forsake those who are His Sheep. His Sheep are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (present tense) those who are not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God are not His Sheep because they do not hear His Voice or follow him. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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