Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?

Hammster

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That view is exactly why I am stating your contradicting yourself. Not sure what it is that I have posted that you do not understand. Maybe we should leave it here for now. Thanks for the discussion.
Let’s try this. God created 1000 people. They are all sinners who, unless God acts, are going to hell. He chooses to save one. That one is elect. He predestines that one elect person to be conformed to the image of His son. That person is saved. God acting on the saved person doesn’t change the fact that the other 999 are hell-bound. So the 999 aren’t predestined. That was what was going to happen to them.
 
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Hammster

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I am not trying to jab you brother. My posts are of sincerity and love for you as a brother in Christ. I have only shared God's Word with you and asked you some questions to think about. I am no one. JESUS is all and it is only to God's Word that I point you because it is only there we find and know the one who is calling us. At least pray about what we are talking about and the questions asked. Once again thanks for the discussion.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
Then why did you answer your own question?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Simple straightforward question. Does sinful man (all of us) deserve the justice of God?
Thankfully, it's not about what we deserve.

In terms of God's heavy handed judgment, or in terms of God's message of Justice for the downtrodden - it's about who God is, not about what we deserve.
 
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StevenBelievin

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I think that most people are overlooking the fact that in order for someone to believe that Jesus is Christ the Lord and Savior, God The Father has to reveal it to them. If this revelation does not occur then the person will not choose to follow Christ because the belief that Christ is preferable and should be followed has to proceed the choice to follow. This belief is brought about by God's revelation of His Son to the person...

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (NKJV)


Jesus also stated that only those whom the Father had given Him (Election) would come to Him.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Therefore the coming of someone to Christ is based on whether the The Father has given that person to Jesus or not. The giving isn't based on the coming, the coming is based on the giving. Since all do not come, obviously all are not given.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

Notice verse 29 where Jesus says "My Father who has given them to me". This is the same principal at work. A person has either been given to Jesus by the Father or not. Those given will come to Jesus and those not given will not. It's right there in the text. Jesus Himself even says in verse 26 that the reason they choose not to believe is because they are not His sheep, or that they were not given to Him by the Father. Their decision to believe or not is based on whether they had been given to Jesus by the Father at a previous point. I believe this point is at the time of election (Before the foundations of the world). This proves that Election cannot be based on foreseen faith or belief because the faith of the person is contingent upon God giving the person to Jesus anyway. God would only be foreseeing the outworking of His own previous action of giving the person to Jesus in eternity past. There is no way around election being God's choice alone and not being based on foreseen faith.
 
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Grip Docility

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I think that most people are overlooking the fact that in order for someone to believe that Jesus is Christ the Lord and Savior, God The Father has to reveal it to them. If this revelation does not occur then the person will not choose to follow Christ because the belief that Christ is preferable and should be followed has to proceed the choice to follow. This belief is brought about by God's revelation of His Son to the person...

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (NKJV)


Jesus also stated that only those whom the Father had given Him (Election) would come to Him.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Therefore the coming of someone to Christ is based on whether the The Father has given that person to Jesus or not. The giving isn't based on the coming, the coming is based on the giving. Since all do not come, obviously all are not given.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

Notice verse 29 where Jesus says "My Father who has given them to me". This is the same principal at work. A person has either been given to Jesus by the Father or not. Those given will come to Jesus and those not given will not. It's right there in the text. Jesus Himself even says in verse 26 that the reason they choose not to believe is because they are not His sheep, or that they were not given to Him by the Father. Their decision to believe or not is based on whether they had been given to Jesus by the Father at a previous point. I believe this point is at the time of election (Before the foundations of the world). This proves that Election cannot be based on foreseen faith or belief because the faith of the person is contingent upon God giving the person to Jesus anyway. God would only be foreseeing the outworking of His own previous action of giving the person to Jesus in eternity past. There is no way around election being God's choice alone and not being based on foreseen faith.

Hold up, no one communes with the Father that doesn’t go through the Son.

Anyone who bypasses The Son is a thief and a robber.

God has enabled mankind to approach God of their own volition by the Message of Jesus. The disabled man argument is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

Christ reconciled the “Kosmos” to God and now it is for those Loved first... (All Humanity)... to respond.

The work of coming to Jesus, of one’s own volition, in humility and admission of need is charged to mankind.

John 6:28-29 is clear

What must I “do”

Believe in the Son

Any other exegesis is void of subtext, pretext and context.
 
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Hammster

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Hold up, no one communes with the Father that doesn’t go through the Son.
At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
— Matthew 11:25

And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
— Matthew 16:17
 
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Grip Docility

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At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
— Matthew 11:25

And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
— Matthew 16:17

Yet Simon had responded to the Call of Jesus. Through the Son, and by Belief in The Son, Of Simons own Volition... Peter was called as all are in Christ’s LDBR. Peter responses to The Son and thus had access to the Father... and the Father was given access to Peter, through The Son.

The Call through the Son (Reconciliation offered to ALL)

The Response Of Carnal Volition (Broken Will to respond to the Son’s Call)

The Belief Of mind

The response of The Father to Belief in the Son

The Holy Spirit brings the Believer into True Faith, and The Fathers leadership, through the Son.

No man has access to the Father, but through THE SON.
 
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Hammster

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Yet Simon had responded to the Call of Jesus. Through the Son, and by Belief in The Son, Of Simons own Volition... Peter was called as all are in Christ’s LDBR. Peter responses to The Son and thus had access to the Father... and the Father was given access to Peter, through The Son.

The Call through the Son (Reconciliation offered to ALL)

The Response Of Carnal Volition (Broken Will to respond to the Son’s Call)

The Belief Of mind

The response of The Father to Belief in the Son

The Holy Spirit brings the Believer into True Faith, and The Fathers leadership, through the Son.

No man has access to the Father, but through THE SON.
How is it again that Peter made his confession?

I’m going with the plain words of Jesus.
 
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Grip Docility

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How is it again that Peter made his confession?

I’m going with the plain words of Jesus.

How is it again being contested that “No man gets to the Father, but THROUGH the Son”?

If a tree is focused on (John 6:29) then the Forest will be missed (John 6:27-29)(John 6:28)

If the Tree is focused on (John 6:37) then the Forrest is missed (John 14:6)

No man “cometh”... approach.... head towards of one’s own volition

Do we agree that Peter was called by Jesus and Peter had a choice to respond or deny?
 
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Hammster

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How is it again being contested that “No man gets to the Father, but THROUGH the Son?

If a tree is focused on (John 6:29) then the Forest will be missed (Jon. 6:27-29)(John 6:28)

If the Tree is focused on (John 6:37) then the Forrest is missed (John 14:6)

No man “cometh”... approach.... head towards of one’s own volition

Do we agree that Peter was called by Jesus and Peter had a choice to respond?
You said “no one communes with the Father that doesn’t go through the Son.”
I showed otherwise.
 
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Grip Docility

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You said “no one communes with the Father that doesn’t go through the Son.”
I showed otherwise.

Your opinion is that you proofed your posit. (“Showed otherwise”)

My opinion is that the John 6:66 of the matter, as well as the John 14:6 of the matter is being sidestepped.

The horse is getting placed before the cart.

Peter was called by Jesus as all are in provided reconciliation.

[Note, Israel Elect’s Sin was forgiven by Jesus before the DBR upon interaction with Him. Luke 7:48 Thus, my Posit that Jesus reconciled Peter to God upon calling on him, is scripturally supported.]

Peter was Israel elect...... thus Jesus was working within the timeline.

Peter responded and believed, before the Father revealed matters to Peter.

Is this being ignored, of volition?
 
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Grip Docility

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Note, Sin was forgiven by Jesus before the DBR. Luke 7:48 Thus, my Posit that Jesus reconciled Peter to God upon calling on him, is scripturally supported.

Peter was Israel elect...... thus Jesus was working within the timeline.

Even the Jews acknowledge that Only God can Forgive Sin “Outside Of the context of the DBR”... affirming God Had the Power to forgive sin, Even before the DBR.

This now shows the DBR does much more than simple Propitiation.

Hint (Matthew 27:51)
 
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StevenBelievin

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Hold up, no one communes with the Father that doesn’t go through the Son.

Anyone who bypasses The Son is a thief and a robber.

God has enabled mankind to approach God of their own volition by the Message of Jesus. The disabled man argument is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

Christ reconciled the “Kosmos” to God and now it is for those Loved first... (All Humanity)... to respond.

The work of coming to Jesus, of one’s own volition, in humility and admission of need is charged to mankind.

John 6:28-29 is clear

What must I “do”

Believe in the Son

Any other exegesis is void of subtext, pretext and context.

Sorry, none of this disproves my post at all. Also I did not use the word commune or communion in my post. I said the God gave a revelation of His Son's true identity to Peter. It's right there in Matthew 16:17.
 
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Grip Docility

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Sorry, none of this disproves my post at all. Also I did not use the word commune or communion in my post. I said the God gave a revelation of His Son's true identity to Peter. It's right there in Matthew 16:17.

And I’m certain you agree Peter had willingly, Of his own volition chose to follow Jesus, when Jesus called to him.

In other words, God the Son called him and Peter responded. (Matthew 4:18-22)

After responding, your verse comes into play.

Are we in agreement on the context?

John 10:1 ; John 14:6
 
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RDKirk

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So why do you feel we deserve His wrath for doing what HE made us to do?

So let's go with that using an example from scripture.

Let's say a sculptor creates a clay chamber pot. You know what those are. Back before there were indoor commodes, people in cities got up at night and did their numbers one and two into a vessel made for that purpose called a "chamber pot." In the morning, someone had to empty it (usually by tossing it out into the street).

Chamber pots were made specifically to be chamber pots, and after a period of use they were simply discarded. I guess from the chamber pot's point of view, that looked like "wrath" on the potter's part. After all, the chamber pot had been doing what it was designed to do. But it had been designed from the beginning to be an "ignoble vessel" created for the sole purpose of people purging themselves into it (2 Timothy 2:20, 21). Does the chamber pot have a right to complain? Doesn't the potter who created it have a right to determine the purpose and destiny of his own creations?

But what if, what if instead of destroying the vessel that had been created for the purpose of destruction, the sculptor instead took that vessel, cleaned it thoroughly, glazed it in the kiln, and placed it on the dinner table alongside the elegant vessel that had been designed from the beginning as a serving dish?

Does the serving dish have a right to complain that the sculptor was merciful to the chamber pot?
 
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Tone

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I don’t believe God predestines anyone to not believe. Man’s natural state is unbelief. So there’s no need to predestine someone to a state that they are naturally in.

Don't you mean "man's unnatural state"?
 
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Hammster

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Don't you mean "man's unnatural state"?
No.

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3
 
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Tone

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No.

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:3

Were Adam and Eve created naturally?
 
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Tone

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The discussion is man’s state now. That’s why I quoted Ephesians 2:3

I bring it up, because I think it is directly related to how people view "freewill"...
they fail to remember that we are not in the state we were created to be in.

*Not unregenerate man.
 
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