Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

Brian Mcnamee · May 23, 2019

*Light* said:
This was taken from gotquestions.org:

"Question: "What are tribulation saints?"

"Answer: The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

According to the writer of that article, Revelation 7:14 is proof that the "Tribulation" Saints are in a group all by themselves. Do you see the problem with that argument? All that verse says is that these are Saints who will be ALIVE during the Great Tribulation, and NOTHING more. This is a clear example of eisegesis! Now here are other Problems with the Pre-Trib rapture view:"

Now here are my refutations below:

There are two last trumpets.
There are two group of God's elect.

"Immediately [AFTER THE TRIBULATION] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

The angels are sent to gather the ELECT of God that are alive at the END of the Tribulation. Now according to Pre-tribbers, this is a different group of ELECT Saints. Really? Based on what? They would have to explain why:

The Tribulation Saints are in a different group than all other Saints in the New Testament.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church.
The Tribulation Saints do NOT participate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Bride of Christ (See above).

Another silly argument made by Pre-tribbers is that it would make NO SENSE for Christ to gather His Saints AFTER the Tribulation only to come back IMMEDIATELY to set up His 1,000 Year reign on Earth. Where does it state ANYWHERE that Christ returns IMMEDIATELY after gathering His Elect? It does not give any specific time frame regarding this. More eisegesis! These poor Saints of the Tribulation are LEFT OUT of the Marriage Ceremony of the Bridegroom and His Bride; and this supposedly takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation according to them. HUGE ERROR! And if these Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church (the body of Christ), then what are they a part of? The Bible CLEARLY SAYS:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OF GENTILES], whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Poor Tribulation Saints are LEFT OUT! Is this the God you worship? Is the Jesus Christ of the Bible? What an insult!!! And finally, the presence of the Lord (Grk. Parousia) is where the Saints meet the Lord in the air in the famous Rapture passage, and what the Pre-tribbers fail to realize is that this is to be understood by its cultural context: and this is a meet and greet of the King in the air to WELCOME HIM, and from that point, they return with the King to reign. Pre-Tribbers are sneaky, and do their very best to avoid this truth. It appears as most Pre-tribbers are AFRAID of death and persecution. God and Christ PROMISED to keep Believers FROM (not "OUT" as most mistranslate the Greek words, "tereo ek") the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10). You will find that the Saints are PROTECTED from God's Wrath poured upon all the unbelieving during the Tribulation, but yet they are still present during that time.

John MacArthur said that he has studied eschatology for over 40 years and has never changed his view regarding the Pre-Trib rapture. Well Johnny Boy, that is NOT an argument, and that will NOT work in a formal debate. Nice Try! Other than that, he's a pretty solid expository preacher.

God Bless!

Hi what are you talking about saying the Bible does not say when the LORD comes with his saints to set up His kingdom? Zech 14 Dan 2,7 show the day the stone cut without hands strikes the image of the kingdoms of man and grinds them to powder leaving no trace and this stone becomes a mountain that covers the earth and is a kingdom that has no end. We see in Dan 7 a pompous is ruling and blashpheming just like the man of sin the son of perdition who exalts himself in the temple as god in 2 Thess. These are the beast in Rev 13 and all 3 are destroyed by the coming on the LORD. The beast is seen having 42 months to from the time he survives a moral wound and he is persecuting and rolls out both the image of the beast and the mark of the beast. This the same guy in Daniel 7 who is persecuting the saints when the son of man comes in glory. In both rev and Dan 7 we see the beast and the pompous one being given to the flame. In REv we see Satan bound for 1000 years then released. In Dan 7 it says the rest of the beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. This is 1000 years and then released to tempt once more. Now look at Zech 14 it is the day the LORD is king over all the earth. Jerusalem is being overrun. The woman ravished and the LORD comes and fights and destroys the enemies. This is the day the kingdom has come and Jesus takes the throne of David . He will reign for 1000 years as the nations which are left must now keep the feats of Tabernacles or they get no rain. At the end of the 1000 years Satan is released and raises one more army which surrounds Jerusalem and then fire comes down from heaven and that is the end. Great white throne judgment and new Jerusalem time. You see the LORD comes and is king at the very moment that Satan is bound and the beast thrown into the fire. When the rapture occurs is still debatable but the cool thing is the application for all positions is to be ready and about the work of the kingdom.

jgr · May 23, 2019

nolidad said:
Yes the church is built upon the prophets! For they prophesied of His coming to earth!

So we agree.

nolidad · May 23, 2019

jgr said:
So we agree.

Yes the NT church is not part of the OT saints though!

jgr · May 23, 2019

nolidad said:
Yes the NT church is not part of the OT saints though!

If the OT prophets are included in the foundation of the NT Church, how are they not part of the NT Church?

Acts2:38 · May 23, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"church"
"Ekklesia"
not always the same.

"assembly of people" ? Usually NOT Ekklesia - most assemblies of people are enemies of Christ.

SET APART by Yahuweh(God) - for Himself - people - EK - EKKLESIA - SET APART PEOPLE .... not just people (of the world).

In the sense that I and nolidad are are discussing for this topic, it is the same. The "saints" are the "church". It is not designated to an inanimate object such as a building, it is the actual people, assembled together or group designation.

ekklēsia = "in a Christian sense, an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting; a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake; the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth; those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body; "

"especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church."

So, again, for what both of us were discussing, that is exactly what it is I said.

nolidad said:
They very much are different.

Matthew 16:18 [Full Chapter]
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say I have been building my church or will continue to build my church!

The church was born at Pentecost and will end at the rapture!

Paul used the term "in christ" many times. For him it was a technical term that meant those saved since Pentecost!

I am not sure what you are rambling about. You must have meant to post whatever your talking about to someone else. I merely informed you that the saints you mentioned are the same as the church. They ARE the church. The church IS the saints. They are one in the same.

The church IS the kingdom as it is used interchangeably in Matthew 16:18-19 and I do agree it began on Pentecost In Acts 2. I never denied that nor did I speak of that.

However you are wrong about the church (the saints aka Christians) not growing after Pentecost.

Acts 2:38-41 shows the very first group of people being added to the kingdom (church). Then you move down to Acts 2:47 and you see that the Lord is adding these people to the church (kingdom) daily.

Another example of the church growing in Acts 16
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Daily means everyday right? So, yes my friend, it does grow when people are added to the church aka body of saints (believers/Christians).

Did you know, each time someone does what the Ethiopian eunuch did in Acts 8:27-39, they become a Christian?

And when you become a Christian, when you do what the Ethiopian did, you put on Christ Galatians 3:27, right?

And Once you put on Christ, by doing what the Ethiopian did, you then receive spiritual blessings right Ephesians 1:3?

And truly also, when you have done what the Ethiopian did, you receive remission of sins and the Holy Spirit right Acts 2:38?

So then, by ALL accounts, one would surely be in Christs body right 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12?

So, therefore you would be a saint right?

Here is an example of a church body, the Ephesians 4, where Paul is telling fellow brethren, who are Christians, important information:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

See that? For the "perfecting of the saints". All those people in verse 11 are to be equipping the saints (Christian people/the body 1 Corinthians 12).

Saints ARE Christians, Christians ARE the body, the body IS the church, the church ARE the saints.

They are one in the same, just as I first told you. You used them like they were separate, which is false.

In case you skipped my response to the other poster here is the word church, used in the Christian (aka the saints) sense

ekklēsia = "in a Christian sense, an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting; a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake; the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth; those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body; "

"especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church."

nolidad · May 23, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
In the sense that I and nolidad are are discussing for this topic, it is the same. The "saints" are the "church". It is not designated to an inanimate object such as a building, it is the actual people, assembled together or group designation.

ekklēsia = "in a Christian sense, an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting; a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake; the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth; those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body; "

"especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church."

So, again, for what both of us were discussing, that is exactly what it is I said.

I am not sure what you are rambling about. You must have meant to post whatever your talking about to someone else. I merely informed you that the saints you mentioned are the same as the church. They ARE the church. The church IS the saints. They are one in the same.

The church IS the kingdom as it is used interchangeably in Matthew 16:18-19 and I do agree it began on Pentecost In Acts 2. I never denied that nor did I speak of that.

However you are wrong about the church (the saints aka Christians) not growing after Pentecost.

Acts 2:38-41 shows the very first group of people being added to the kingdom (church). Then you move down to Acts 2:47 and you see that the Lord is adding these people to the church (kingdom) daily.

Another example of the church growing in Acts 16
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Daily means everyday right? So, yes my friend, it does grow when people are added to the church aka body of saints (believers/Christians).

Did you know, each time someone does what the Ethiopian eunuch did in Acts 8:27-39, they become a Christian?

And when you become a Christian, when you do what the Ethiopian did, you put on Christ Galatians 3:27, right?

And Once you put on Christ, by doing what the Ethiopian did, you then receive spiritual blessings right Ephesians 1:3?

And truly also, when you have done what the Ethiopian did, you receive remission of sins and the Holy Spirit right Acts 2:38?

So then, by ALL accounts, one would surely be in Christs body right 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12?

So, therefore you would be a saint right?

Here is an example of a church body, the Ephesians 4, where Paul is telling fellow brethren, who are Christians, important information:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

See that? For the "perfecting of the saints". All those people in verse 11 are to be equipping the saints (Christian people/the body 1 Corinthians 12).

Saints ARE Christians, Christians ARE the body, the body IS the church, the church ARE the saints.

They are one in the same, just as I first told you. You used them like they were separate, which is false.

In case you skipped my response to the other poster here is the word church, used in the Christian (aka the saints) sense

ekklēsia = "in a Christian sense, an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting; a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake; the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth; those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body; "

"especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church."

I may have misunderstood what you were writing. You cleared it up. sorry if I muddled things up!

I never even implied the church stopped growing after Pentecost- It has been growing since Pentecost both in numbers and quality in places.

The only thing I would disagree is that the church is all saints! OT saints are not part of the church (the body of Christ) nor are the trib saints. Saints in this dispensation of Grace or church age are the church- but as we agreed the church began at Pentecost and ends at the rapture.

nolidad · May 23, 2019

jgr said:
If the OT prophets are included in the foundation of the NT Church, how are they not part of the NT Church?

Because the NT Church is comprised of people baptized by the Holy Spirit as Paul explicitly wrote.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

OT saints were not Baptized into the body by the Holy Spirit!

keras · May 23, 2019

nolidad said:
I may have misunderstood what you were writing. You cleared it up. sorry if I muddled things up!

I never even implied the church stopped growing after Pentecost- It has been growing since Pentecost both in numbers and quality in places.

The only thing I would disagree is that the church is all saints! OT saints are not part of the church (the body of Christ) nor are the trib saints. Saints in this dispensation of Grace or church age are the church- but as we agreed the church began at Pentecost and ends at the rapture.

This is the old Two People, Two Promises doctrine.
It has been discussed extensively on this forum and elsewhere.
The 2P,2P idea has been refuted and is simply not Biblical. It is a major tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, where they must have Israel on earth, while the Church sits in heaven.
That whole idea is unscriptural nonsense and should be put into the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
Several points that prove it:
There is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +
Jesus was the One who guided the Israelites. 1 Corinthians 10:4
We Christians are told to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12

Acts2:38 · May 23, 2019

keras said:
This is the old Two People, Two Promises doctrine.
It has been discussed extensively on this forum and elsewhere.
The 2P,2P idea has been refuted and is simply not Biblical. It is a major tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, where they must have Israel on earth, while the Church sits in heaven.
That whole idea is unscriptural nonsense and should be put into the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
Several points that prove it:
There is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +
Jesus was the One who guided the Israelites. 1 Corinthians 10:4
We Christians are told to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12

I was just going to reply to him when I read your post. Thank you for pulling out scripture for this, especially since we all know there is no scripture that states what that person was stating.

In addition to that, he probably should study the book of Hebrews.

Acts2:38 · May 23, 2019

nolidad said:
I may have misunderstood what you were writing. You cleared it up. sorry if I muddled things up!

I never even implied the church stopped growing after Pentecost- It has been growing since Pentecost both in numbers and quality in places.

The only thing I would disagree is that the church is all saints! OT saints are not part of the church (the body of Christ) nor are the trib saints. Saints in this dispensation of Grace or church age are the church- but as we agreed the church began at Pentecost and ends at the rapture.

And your scripture to back this up?

LittleLambofJesus · May 23, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
I was just going to reply to him when I read your post. Thank you for pulling out scripture for this, especially since we all know there is no scripture that states what that person was stating.
In addition to that, he probably should study the book of Hebrews.

Especially the the Hebrew Jews of today.................

Copperhead · Jun 23, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
I was just going to reply to him when I read your post. Thank you for pulling out scripture for this, especially since we all know there is no scripture that states what that person was stating.

In addition to that, he probably should study the book of Hebrews.

It would be ok if it was also confirmed by the OT. That is the Torah requirement of the testimony of two witnesses before a matter can be established. And the Bereans of Acts 17 showed us how this requirement is applied. Any position has to have equal support in both OT and NT or it doesn't meet the standard of evidence.

Copperhead · Jun 23, 2019

keras said:
This is the old Two People, Two Promises doctrine.

There is truth to that idea. Where it gets messed up by those who disregard it comes from the misconception that election is an equivalent term with justification. That isn't the case.

nolidad · Jun 23, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
And your scripture to back this up?

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say- have been building, or will continue to build, or keep on building. He said will- future! Entry into the body of Christ requires the baptism of the Spirit- this did not start until Pentecost!

nolidad · Jun 23, 2019

keras said:
This is the old Two People, Two Promises doctrine.
It has been discussed extensively on this forum and elsewhere.
The 2P,2P idea has been refuted and is simply not Biblical. It is a major tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, where they must have Israel on earth, while the Church sits in heaven.
That whole idea is unscriptural nonsense and should be put into the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
Several points that prove it:
There is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +
Jesus was the One who guided the Israelites. 1 Corinthians 10:4
We Christians are told to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12

It is very biblical! It has to do with order in the Millenial kingdom!

Israel is the wife of Jehovah and the church is the espoused to Christ!

God did not transfer His promises to Israel to the church.

the church or Body of Christ did not exist in the old testament!

We do not sit in heaven. After we have wedded Jesus (after the bema seat judgment which occurs in heaven) we come down with Jesus to reign as His queen for 1,000 years and Israel governs the earth.

The fact you have the body of Christ in the 70th week of Daniel shows you know not the 2 reasons for the 70th week.

But as you have allegorized so many passages to make the promises of Israel belong to the church; let me ask you an honest question.

Why is your allegorical interpretation to be believed more thasn the Roman Church or the Mormons or the Jw's ? What authority do you base your allegories as being the truth over an dabove these others who claim the same thing?

I claim to hold to the Scriptures as written

So you claim only one people of God and use those two vewrses? Let us look at them!

John 17:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

When did the Apostles preach to the OT saints?

Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

When did the OT saints actually hear the gospel and trust Christ and were baptized in the Holy spirit???

As for Israel having a future kingdom? One verse should convince any that believe the bible is the Word of God!

Acts 1:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus did not say they are through as a nation. He did say- it is not for you to know when teh Father will accomplish it!

keras · Jun 23, 2019

nolidad said:
God did not transfer His promises to Israel to the church.

No. His holy and faithful people have always been since Abel, since the 7000 of Elijah's time, since the disciples of Christ and now every faithful Christian person. - ONE people, who will receive the Promises of God to them.

nolidad said:
We do not sit in heaven. After we have wedded Jesus (after the bema seat judgment which occurs in heaven) we come down with Jesus to reign as His queen for 1,000 years and Israel governs the earth.

This statement points up your confusion and error.
The 'bema' Judgement does not occur in heaven, that is your idea. Matthew 25:31-33
People do not Return with Jesus, verse 31 and Rev 19:14 makes that clear.

nolidad · Jun 24, 2019

keras said:
This statement points up your confusion and error.
The 'bema' Judgement does not occur in heaven, that is your idea. Matthew 25:31-33
People do not Return with Jesus, verse 31 and Rev 19:14 makes that clear.

You are confusing the judgment of teh sheep and goats with a bema seat. Only believers will have their works judged for purposes of awards (as is what a bema seat was for) The judgment in MAtt 25 is for survivors of teh 70th week of Daniel and is to see who goes into the millenial kingdom and who gets tossed into the place of torments awaiting final internment in the lake of fire 1,000 years later.

Revelation 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Notice verse 1? People!!!! Not angels!~ I do not believe God lets such glaring errors in His Word!

Notice verse 7? Still in heaven! the marriage is now! that is the meaning of that verse! The extended marriage supper happens when the Millenial kingdom is established!

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Now look at these two verses:

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Was this doen to confuse many believers?

As for the Matthew quote- if that were the only passage I would agree with you! But it is not, revelation shows the church in heaven and multitudes of people shouting Alleluias! and also given the fact that the synoptic writers excluded things because they were not part of the narrative God was inspiring them to write, and given that Matthew was writing to a Jewish mindset- they would have scoffed at the thought of people in heaven.

It is also highly probable that Matthew was not even aware of people in heaven. Paul was given that revelation and we don't know if Matthew knew fo what God told Paul before He wrote His gospel.

Copperhead · Jun 24, 2019

nolidad said:
The judgment in MAtt 25 is for survivors of teh 70th week of Daniel and is to see who goes into the millenial kingdom and who gets tossed into the place of torments awaiting final internment in the lake of fire 1,000 years later.

Agreed. It is actually an expository discourse on Joel 3. The nations being judged for the reason you state.

Acts2:38 · Jun 24, 2019

nolidad said:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say- have been building, or will continue to build, or keep on building. He said will- future! Entry into the body of Christ requires the baptism of the Spirit- this did not start until Pentecost!

Sir, it has taken you so long to reply back to this you must have forgot to WHAT I was referring to when I said:
"what is the scripture to back this up?"

I am quite aware that Matthew 16 uses this in the "future tense". I never argued that. So I have no idea why you are attempting to bludgeon me with that. :scratch:

Also, I am assuming you think baptism is just you saying by mouth "I believe in Christ" and then the spirit enters you and your saved, right?

Then how do you explain Acts 2:38 and verse 41? This kinda tells you otherwise.

But wait wait wait. Before you go off touting Cornelius, the spirit only entered him to show the Jews that Gentiles are also an accepted chosen people (see Acts 11). So Cornelius was baptized into water just as those jews in Acts 2, Paul in Acts 22, the Ethiopian in Acts 8, the Philippian Jailer in Acts 16, etc etc. Thus, by being baptized into water (not because the water itself saves but because of this--> 1 Peter 3:20-21 and Romans 6:1-5 combined with 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 obedience to what the gospel commands) Cornelius, and friends and family who were baptized too, were saved too.

Now, getting back on track,

This is the quote YOU said, that I want you to back up in scripture:

nolidad said:
The only thing I would disagree is that the church is all saints! OT saints are not part of the church (the body of Christ) nor are the trib saints. Saints in this dispensation of Grace or church age are the church

There is NO scripture at all that supports the theory that there are multiple types of saints.

Saints are ALL those who have been baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)

and for people in the Old testament, Christs blood "flows both ways". Those in the OT who obeyed the laws are saved (ie Moses, Joshua, etc), they too are saints. Anyone who is in a saved state or has died in a saved state, are indeed saints.

There is nothing in scripture that says anything about different types of saints.

Your either a saved person (saint) or you are not (lost worldly person aka not a saint).

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

No categories of saints here sir. Just anyone who keeps the commandments, are the saints.

Romans 1:7, Anyone "called" aka those added to the church, saved people, are saints.

Psalms 30:4, saints in the OT! I don't see different categories here either.

1 Corinthians 14:33 All who are in the churches are what? Saints? Are there different categories here? or are they just all saints period?

nolidad · Jun 24, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
There is NO scripture at all that supports the theory that there are multiple types of saints.

Saints are ALL those who have been baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27)

and for people in the Old testament, Christs blood "flows both ways". Those in the OT who obeyed the laws are saved (ie Moses, Joshua, etc), they too are saints. Anyone who is in a saved state or has died in a saved state, are indeed saints.

There is nothing in scripture that says anything about different types of saints.

Your either a saved person (saint) or you are not (lost worldly person aka not a saint).

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

No categories of saints here sir. Just anyone who keeps the commandments, are the saints.

Romans 1:7, Anyone "called" aka those added to the church, saved people, are saints.

Psalms 30:4, saints in the OT! I don't see different categories here either.

1 Corinthians 14:33 All who are in the churches are what? Saints? Are there different categories here? or are they just all saints period?

Well you are confusing the word "saint" with the saints that are members of the Body of Christ!

I will give you the one verse that should end your misunderstanding!

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus is god the Son-ergo does not make careless statements.

Jesus did not say, have been building my church, or will keep building my church, or continue building my church like His blood reached back into history to make from Adam to John the Baptist!

But He spoke of a future building! Not a continuous building that has been going on!

Even John the Baptist recognizes that He is not part of the bride of Christ!

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but thefriend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

DEo I need to list the verses that says only those Baptized in the Spirit are the bride of Christ?

Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads