LDS John 10:33

ViaCrucis said:

So you think "high calling of God" refers to "God" as the calling itself? Then I understand your confusion. That's not what the text is saying.

κατὰ σκοπὸν διώκω ἐπὶ τὸ βραβεῖον τῆς ἄνω κλήσεως τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

I press on toward the mark, for the prize of God's high calling in Jesus Christ

The word "God" here is in the genitive, thus "God's high calling". The rendering of "of God" is due to the genitive case; thus "of" is used in translation for the posessesive, in the same way Abraham Lincoln said "government of the people", that is, "the government which belongs to the people", or "the music of Frank Sinatra" means "Frank Sinatra's music". The genitive noun case indicates the possessive. God's high, upward, or lofty calling on Paul is what he has spoken about here, the future glory of the resurrection and the perfection of that future life. The Apostle has not yet attained it, and he doesn't pretend that he has, but he pushes onward toward that prize (the word here, brabeion, is the victor's goal, the victory at the conclusion of a race or contest). So Paul here speaks of having his eyes set forward toward the finish line, toward the victor's crown at the end of the race, the future glory of the resurrection, the everlasting life, the fullness of what God has in store in Christ.

God's calling, God's purposes, what God has in store, in Christ, for His people is the promise of that future glory--the resurrection of the body, life everlasting, the perfection which is in Christ; which is ours now by faith, but then in full.

-CryptoLutheran

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Here are similar scriptures:
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:1)

1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


(New Testament | Revelation 3:21)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:4)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 4:7 - 8)

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

(New Testament | Hebrews 3:14)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

He is the way said:

Here are similar scriptures:
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:1)

1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


(New Testament | Revelation 3:21)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:4)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 4:7 - 8)

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

(New Testament | Hebrews 3:14)

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

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2 Corinthians 5:1, οἰκοδομὴν ἐκ θεοῦ "a habitation from God"

Revelation 3:21, "to sit with Me in My throne", yes, see also "and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Ephesians 2:6). We belong to Christ, seated with Christ, and will live and reign with Him in the Age to Come.

2 Peter 1:4, "you are made partakers of the divine nature", A bit better than the rest to make your point, but still no cigar. Our participation in the divine nature is by grace, known as Theosis. But I can only imagine how much of a headache it's going to be to engage on the subject of Theosis while having to dismantle the mountain of errors concerning LDS exaltation.

2 Timothy 4:7-8, "there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness", I see you're not even trying now.

Hebrews 3:14, "we are made partakers of Christ", yes. Yes we are. By grace and adoption.

I am going to assume, based on this sort of weak appeal to the Bible, that the LDS must not get a lot of converts from biblically literate members from other churches.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

2 Corinthians 5:1, οἰκοδομὴν ἐκ θεοῦ "a habitation from God"

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ἐκ is usually translated as "of" not from. The bulding of God is also eternal meaning that it always existed.

ViaCrucis said:

Revelation 3:21, "to sit with Me in My throne", yes, see also "and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Ephesians 2:6). We belong to Christ, seated with Christ, and will live and reign with Him in the Age to Come.

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Christ sits on His Father's throne indicating that He is one with the Father. Whoever sits on Christ's throne would be one with Christ:
(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

ViaCrucis said:

2 Peter 1:4, "you are made partakers of the divine nature", A bit better than the rest to make your point, but still no cigar. Our participation in the divine nature is by grace, known as Theosis. But I can only imagine how much of a headache it's going to be to engage on the subject of Theosis while having to dismantle the mountain of errors concerning LDS exaltation.

2 Timothy 4:7-8, "there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness", I see you're not even trying now.

Hebrews 3:14, "we are made partakers of Christ", yes. Yes we are. By grace and adoption.

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I agree that it is by grace and adoption and being made perfect in Jesus Christ becoming one with Christ and the Father.

ViaCrucis said:

I am going to assume, based on this sort of weak appeal to the Bible, that the LDS must not get a lot of converts from biblically literate members from other churches.

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I wouldn't assume that.

ViaCrucis said:

It's fascinating to see the broken record on repeat here.

"So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection any sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Let this attitude be in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who though being in the form of God did not regard equality with God something to exploit, but instead emptied Himself, taking on the form of a slave, in human likeness. And being found in human form humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross."

The phroneo--the attitude, way of thinking, heart-attitude--we are to have is that of Christ who humbled Himself. Christ, though God, did not cling to His Deity to exploit it, but emptied Himself, He freely poured Himself out as though nothing, in humility, even to the shame and humiliation of the cross. That same mindset, that same way of thinking, that same attitude and heart should be ours. If Christ Himself, even though He is God, gave Himself freely. If God Himself became our slave, how much more ought the slaves of God understand ourselves as slaves and servants, pouring ourselves out, regarding our stations in life to be nothing. For our stations in life are nothing compared to the Deity of God's Son, and yet He did not exploit His position.

For no servant is greater than his master.

And, I know, this won't be the last time that I have to explain the obvious here.

-CryptoLutheran

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Phillippians 2:5-6
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Paul is not telling us to be humble like Jesus, he is telling us the be like minded with Jesus in being equal with God.

Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, Paul says let this mind be in you, which is in Jesus.

How do you miss this point. Because you will go out of your way to get away from what Paul said to the Phillippians. You can't believe that you can be equal with God so obviously either Paul is crazy or he is thinking something else. But surely he is not thinking that we can be equal with God.

Well, get used to it, that is exactly what he was telling the Phillippians.

Peter1000 said:

Phillippians 2:5-6
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Paul is not telling us to be humble like Jesus, he is telling us the be like minded with Jesus in being equal with God.

Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, Paul says let this mind be in you, which is in Jesus.

How do you miss this point. Because you will go out of your way to get away from what Paul said to the Phillippians. You can't believe that you can be equal with God so obviously either Paul is crazy or he is thinking something else. But surely he is not thinking that we can be equal with God.

Well, get used to it, that is exactly what he was telling the Phillippians.

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Because the whole point that Paul is making is that we should be humble like Jesus, that's what he's talking about in this passage.

How do you ignore literally everything else Paul is saying here, cling to two verses out of context, and then accuse me of missing the point?

The mind of Christ is not Christ's equality with His Father, but Christ's humiliation and kenosis. The word translated as "mind" here is phroneo, meaning something like way of thinking or attitude, rather than "mind" strictly speaking, (which is nous in Greek), in fact it's a verb, not a noun. Something like "adjust your thinking to be like that of Christ Jesus, who though being in the form of God did not regard equality with God something to exploit, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a slave"

Paul is speaking to having Christ's attitude in His lowering of Himself, of His humiliation, of His emptying Himself.

How are you missing this? This isn't complex exegesis, it's basic reading comprehension.

-CryptoLutheran

Phoebe Ann said:

@ViaCrucis
Mormons teach that Christ was not fully God until He was resurrected. How can God be only partly God?

So they take the verse "thought it not robbery to be equal with God," to mean that
created humans can also become equal with God. But Christ did not become equal with God; He already was!

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This boggles my mind, how does one get the exact opposite meaning from the passage?

-CryptoLutheran

Phoebe Ann said:

@ViaCrucis
Mormons teach that Christ was not fully God until He was resurrected. How can God be only partly God?

So they take the verse "thought it not robbery to be equal with God," to mean that
created humans can also become equal with God. But Christ did not become equal with God; He already was!

Even Christ himself was not perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness [see D&C 93:11-13]. Is not this to be so with the children of men? Is any man perfect? Has any man received a fulness at once? Have we reached a point wherein we may receive the fulness of God, of his glory, and his intelligence? No; and yet, if Jesus, the Son of God, and the Father of the heavens and the earth in which we dwell, received not a fulness at the first, but increased in faith, knowledge, understanding and grace until he received a fulness, is it not possible for all men who are born of women to receive little by little, line upon line, precept upon precept, until they shall receive a fulness, as he has received a fulness, and be exalted with him in the presence of the Father?
Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 68
“He Received . . . Grace for Grace” (D&C 93:12) | Religious Studies Center


Doctrine and Covenants 88
106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

The fundamental principle of our religion is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. ... He grew “from grace to grace, until he received a fulness” of the Father's power.
Ezra Taft Benson
Jesus Christ:Our Savior and Redeemer - President Ezra Taft Benson

Essentially, the gospel of Jesus Christ is a five-ingredient recipe for eternal life. First, let us consider what can become of us if we follow this recipe, and then we can consider each of the ingredients. . .

According to Elder Bruce R. McConkie: “Eternal life is not a name that has reference only to the unending duration of a future life; immortality is to live forever in the resurrected state, and by the grace of God all men will gain this unending continuance of life. But only those who obey the fulness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life. … It is ‘the greatest of all the gifts of God …, for it is the kind, status, type, and quality of life that God himself enjoys. Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation; they are sons of God, joint-heirs with Christ, members of the Church of the Firstborn; they overcome all things, have all power, and receive the fulness of the Father” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 237).
Elder L. Tom Perry
The Gospel of Jesus Christ - Elder L. Tom Perry


“Jesus perfected his life and became our Christ. Priceless blood of a god was shed, and he became our Savior; his perfected life was given, and he became our Redeemer; his atonement for us made possible our return to our Heavenly Father, and yet how thoughtless, how unappreciative are most beneficiaries! Ingratitude is a sin of the ages.”
Spencer W. Kimball, see Chapter 1, p. 6 at this link:
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36500_eng.pdf?lang=eng

"Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved."
Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434

“The statement of our Lord that he could do nothing but what he had seen the Father do, means simply that it had been revealed to him what his Father had done. Without doubt, Jesus came into the world subject to the same condition as was required of each of us-he forgot everything, and he had to grow from grace to grace. His forgetting, or having his former knowledge taken away, would be requisite just as it is in the case of each of us, to complete the present temporal existence.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:32

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Christ Himself said that He had not been perfected:

(New Testament | Luke 13:32)

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Was Christ lying?

ViaCrucis said:

This boggles my mind, how does one get the exact opposite meaning from the passage?

-CryptoLutheran

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(New Testament | Luke 13:32)

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

ViaCrucis said:

Because the whole point that Paul is making is that we should be humble like Jesus, that's what he's talking about in this passage.

How do you ignore literally everything else Paul is saying here, cling to two verses out of context, and then accuse me of missing the point?

The mind of Christ is not Christ's equality with His Father, but Christ's humiliation and kenosis. The word translated as "mind" here is phroneo, meaning something like way of thinking or attitude, rather than "mind" strictly speaking, (which is nous in Greek), in fact it's a verb, not a noun. Something like "adjust your thinking to be like that of Christ Jesus, who though being in the form of God did not regard equality with God something to exploit, but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a slave"

Paul is speaking to having Christ's attitude in His lowering of Himself, of His humiliation, of His emptying Himself.

How are you missing this? This isn't complex exegesis, it's basic reading comprehension.

-CryptoLutheran

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I get that Jesus humbled himself to be a servant. I get what Paul was saying about that.

Paul also said that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, and Paul says that we should be like minded in this thought also.

Like minded in humility, like minded in being equal with God. Jesus is now surely equal with God and we are joint-heirs with him of all that the Father has, making us equal with Jesus and thus equal with God, eventually. A lot of water has to go under the bridge in order for us to be equal with God, but if we do what Jesus tells us to do and are like minded in our humility and humbleness, we can also be like minded in being equal with our Father in heaven.

Phoebe Ann said:

@ViaCrucis
Mormons teach that Christ was not fully God until He was resurrected. How can God be only partly God?

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When Jesus came to earth as a man, he gave up some of the qualities of being God.

For instance, he did not know the time of the second coming? (Matthew 24:36) If Jesus was fully God, would he not know that important time? Of course.

He had to learn things. (Hebrews 5:8) Does God have to learn things? Of course not.

He admitted that he had a God. (John 20:17) Would God have to admit that he had a God that he prayed to and worshiped? Of course not.

He admitted that his God was greater than he was. (John 14:28) Would God admit that there was another God that was greater than him? Of course not.

He admitted that mere mortals would do greater works than he had done. (John 14:12) Would God admit that mere mortals would be able to do greater works than he did? Of course not.

So keep it all in prospective. Jesus had to go through a process to become equal to his God and Father
and that process did not come to fruition until after he was resurrected and exalted in the heavens.
The scriptures make it quite clear.

Peter1000 said:

I get that Jesus humbled himself to be a servant. I get what Paul was saying about that.

Paul also said that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, and Paul says that we should be like minded in this thought also.

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Except that Paul brings up Christ's equality with God not for its own purpose, but to give emphasis to Christ's humility.

If I say, "The king left his palace to dwell among the poor" the point is the contrast between station and activity. A king leaving his palace and living among the poor is a much more drastic contrast than, say, a cobbler leaving his shoe shop and living among the poor.

Paul is setting up the measure of Christ's humility--that Christ, who is GOD, became a human slave, and willingly embraced the shameful death of a Roman crucifixion. The attitude we are supposed to have isn't one of personal glory, thinking that we are somehow gods or equals with God; the attitude we are supposed to have is the willingness to abandon ourselves, throw ourselves away, empty ourselves in service to others.

like minded in being equal with God.

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Hellish blasphemy.

Jesus is now surely equal with God

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He always has been, because that's what He is, God. There was no point when He wasn't God, and therefore no point when He wasn't equal with His Father. The Logos was in the beginning as God with God.

-CryptoLutheran

Peter1000 said:

So keep it all in prospective. Jesus had to go through a process to become equal to his God and Father

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False. There was never a time when the Son was not equal with His Father, because the Son is the eternal and uncreated God.

Baruch ata Adonai Eloheinu Melech HaOlam, blessed be the Lord our God the King of the Universe.

-CryptoLutheran

He is the way said:

Christ Himself said that He had not been perfected:

(New Testament | Luke 13:32)

32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Was Christ lying?

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Oy vey. So what Christ says there is καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ τελειοῦμαι, "and the third I shall conclude it" or "shall reach the end of my course". Teleioumai is the present indicative passive first person singular of teleioo, meaning "make complete". From the noun telos, meaning "goal" or "end". The meaning of "perfect" here is in its older sense of completed or finished. The finish line, the end goal of Christ's work is the resurrection.

The meaning of "perfect" as employed in modern vernacular English as "flawless" or "without defect" or such senses is absent here. This is the modern vernacular usage, the more archaic usage (which we still use), and which is how the KJV uses it here, is in the sense of completeness. It's the difference between "I have a perfect gemstone" vs "I have perfected my craft", the latter does not mean that they have become infallible, or have become incapable of mistakes, or errors; but rather that they have reached their goal in skill.

You'd likely have a better time if you didn't rely on the KJV so much, and took a gander at other translations and at least took notice of comparisons.

NIV
He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'

NLT
Jesus replied, “Go tell that fox that I will keep on casting out demons and healing people today and tomorrow; and the third day I will accomplish my purpose.

ESV
And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.

BSB
But Jesus replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘Look, I will keep driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach My goal.’

NASB
And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'

CSB
He said to them, “Go tell that fox, ‘Look, I’m driving out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete my work.’

CEV
Jesus said to them: Go tell that fox, "I am going to force out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and three days later I'll be through."

GNT
Jesus answered them, "Go and tell that fox: 'I am driving out demons and performing cures today and tomorrow, and on the third day I shall finish my work.'

HCSB
He said to them, "Go tell that fox, Look! I'm driving out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete My work.'

NET
But he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Look, I am casting out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete my work.

NAS
And He said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’

DRB
And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I am consummated.

Even pre-KJV translations such as the following can be helpful here.

Wycliffe
And he seide to hem, Go ye, and seie to that foxe, Lo! Y caste out feendis, and Y make perfitli heelthis, to dai and to morew, and the thridde dai Y am endid.

Tyndale
And he sayd vnto them. Goo ye and tell that foxe beholde I cast oute devyls and heale the people to daye and to morowe and the third daye I make an ende.

Coverdale
And he sayde vnto the: Go ye and tell that foxe: beholde, I cast out deuels, and heale the people todaye and tomorow, and vpo the thirde daye shal I make an ende:

-CryptoLutheran

Phoebe Ann said:

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Being perfected doesn't make us Gods!

The use of the term "perfected" here should be taken in the usual biblical context: as a reference to maturity and completion. This is not a reference to sinlessness, since even Jesus—who had no sin (Hebrews 4:15)—is said to be "perfected" in a sense by God as He performed the Father's will (Hebrews 2:10). Instead, this echoes the idea presented in Hebrews 7:25: that Christ's sacrifice can do, completely, what the animal sacrifices of the old covenant could only do partially.
What does Hebrews 10:14 mean?

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You said: "The use of the term "perfected" here should be taken in the usual biblical context: as a reference to maturity and completion."

Who gave you this opinion?

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


You said: "Being perfected doesn't make us Gods!" Scripture citation needed:

ViaCrucis said:

False. There was never a time when the Son was not equal with His Father, because the Son is the eternal and uncreated God.

Baruch ata Adonai Eloheinu Melech HaOlam, blessed be the Lord our God the King of the Universe.

-CryptoLutheran

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(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

ViaCrucis said:

False. There was never a time when the Son was not equal with His Father, because the Son is the eternal and uncreated God.

Baruch ata Adonai Eloheinu Melech HaOlam, blessed be the Lord our God the King of the Universe.

-CryptoLutheran

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It is interesting that you ignored every scripture that I gave you that proves that Jesus was not always equal to his God and Father until he was resurrected and glorified.

These scriptures all prove that there was a time when Jesus was not equal with God. He is not God, he is the Son of God, and he himself says in the holy bible that his God is greater than he is. That does not sound like he was equal at that time.

Please comment on John 14:28, and if Jesus really says in the bible that God is greater than him, how do you conclude that Jesus was always = to his God. (John 20:17)

Sorry, but your learning has taught you to ignore scripture that does not fit your agenda.