Salvational Logic And Mr. Bill

Concord1968 · May 23, 2019

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

bling · May 23, 2019

Grip Docility said:
There are some simple terms that get thrown around in reference to accepting Jesus.

1) Justification
2) Sanctification
3) Atonement
4) Propitiation

Justification in theology always means (Made right before God)

Sanctification is a little more complicated because this gets redefined by many conflicting theologies.

- Some theologies state that after initial justification, the human response to “Sanctification” is a Salvational factor

- Some theologies state this is a work of the Holy Spirit that occurs naturally as a result of hearing and believing the gospel.

- Some theologies purport that a true Christian doesn’t sin and are Sanctified upon Justification

- Some theologies call this perseverance and again link it to human response after Justification

Atonement This simply means to repair something

Propitiation This simply means to Win or Regain Favor with God.

Logical use of these words in response to Jesus’ Death, Burial and Resurrection...

Jesus is God... so we can now say that these matters are rested on God’s shoulders as surely as the Cross was, on Christ’s agonizing walk to (The place of the Skull).

Justification- God’s Death, Burial and Resurrection are sufficient to Make a person right before God.

Sanctification- Exodus 14:14 is the best way to understand this

Atonement- When we put on Christ’s life, death, Burial and Resurrection like a Cloak... we are “Covered” like (Jacob) as he stood before (Isaac) and was seen as the “First Born Son”. The Birthright becomes ours.

Propitiation- God the Son pleased God the Father, through His Life, Death, Burial and Resurrection... unto Favor with God.

Now... Allow me to be clear...

Upon Faith: Christ’s Life, is imputed to us as if it was our own. This is how we are Justified.

Upon Faith: We are Justified through Jesus’ propitiation.

A Justified Christian that holds to Jesus as their Propitiation, will be naturally and effortlessly Sanctified within their soul, by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9)

The Atoning Covering Of Christ over our entire life (Happens upon Faith)... means we are Justified, Sanctified and Propitiated for, by Jesus.

John 6:28-29 tells us Belief is our Work. Yeah, I said it. It takes work to genuinely believe.

Belief has two meanings... I’ll illustrate.

We’ll use Mr. Bill as an example.

Mr. Bill is trapped in a burning plane and will soon die, unless Mr. Bill grabs a Parachute.

Demon type Belief...

Mr. Bill “Believes” The Parachute Exists. Does this save Mr. Bill? No! This is simple Belief that something is real.

This is Demon Type Belief. They know God is real... but they don’t “BELIEVE” in Him. They believe in POWER and SELF SUFFICIENCY.

Mr. Bill can Believe the Parachute Exists, but be too AFRAID to Have BELIEF in it to put it on. Can you say... “Oh No Mr. Bill”.

Saving Belief

Mr. Bill is Afraid to jump out of the plane and afraid the Parachute won’t work, but out of courage and necessity, Mr. Bill picks up the Parachute and Puts it on. Then, he Jumps!

Imagine if Mr. Bill has the Parachute on and decides He can do better than the Parachute, so he doesn’t pull the Rip Cord, and flaps his arms all the way down....

Mr. Bill ... would then... well (Oh No Mr. Bill)

But... let’s say Mr. Bill has Faith in the Parachute and pulls the Rip Cord...

Hooray Mr. Bill!!!

What have we learned?

Mr. Bill needed to use the Parachute with Faith to LIVE.

If Mr. Bill tells other people that his amazing ARM FLAPPING saved him, he would be wrong.

If Mr. Bill Said he had to FLAP his arms after the Parachute was opened, he would be wrong. Infact, his arm flapping may just cause his arms to tangle the Parachute cords and (OH NO, MR. BILL)

If Mr. Bill says... “I saw the Parachute, Put it on and depended on it to Save me. That’s why I’m alive to this very day.”

Mr. Bill would be telling THE TRUTH.

Did those Jews who crossed the Red Sea have a saving faith in God? Why did some of them not stay behind, from what we know, lots did not seem to have that saving faith from their actions a short time later.

Does it not have to be a real choice?

Place a gun against someone’s head and asking if they “believe” is not a real choice?

The prodigal son when he came to his senses could have stayed and starved to death in the pigsty, if he was: macho, really willing to pay the piper, been willing to accept the punishment he fully deserved, tried to maintain at least a little pride (a false pride), thought of how his older brother would mock him, and would it not have been more noble not to further disturb your father with another undeserving request?

Lot’s wife just looked back.

It is hard to provide an outward physical choice to the choice that is made inwardly, the person must mental chose, while even good actions can be do for the wrong reasons.

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

TheSeabass said:
The only correct conclusion that can be gained from James is that one is NOT justified by faith only.

In your OP, if "Bill" had belief only then he would have never jumped but sat on the airplane doing nothing.

Similar example, "Bill" is on the third story of a building that is on fire. The firemen below tell "Bill" to jump and they will catch him and bring him to safety.
--If "Bill" has belief only he will do nothing, just wish he was not in the burning building and will end up being burned.
--If "Bill" has a belief that will save him he will act on that belief and jump to safety in the net.

The safety net Jesus provides for men to jump into to be saved consists of belief (John 8:24); repentance (Luke 13:3), confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16). Many, many do not have faith in what Jesus says but try and save themselves from the burning building by their own means.

You’re opening statement shows you misunderstand James.

What you have unknowingly said... as so many do... is that “The Salvic Work Of Jesus is Insufficient to save”.

Martin Luther initially called James an Epistle of straw. Later, near his death, he saw that James was compatible with Salvation by Faith.

If I were to exegete James, you would find that James condemns the sort of statement that looks at works for Salvation.

Hint... (Salvation for Sex workers).. and note... Rahab was saved in a typification Of Apocalyptic Times.

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

bling said:
Did those Jews who crossed the Red Sea have a saving faith in God? Why did some of them not stay behind, from what we know, lots did not seem to have that saving faith from their actions a short time later.

Does it not have to be a real choice?

Place a gun against someone’s head and asking if they “believe” is not a real choice?

The prodigal son when he came to his senses could have stayed and starved to death in the pigsty, if he was: macho, really willing to pay the piper, been willing to accept the punishment he fully deserved, tried to maintain at least a little pride (a false pride), thought of how his older brother would mock him, and would it not have been more noble not to further disturb your father with another undeserving request?

Lot’s wife just looked back.

It is hard to provide an outward physical choice to the choice that is made inwardly, the person must mental chose, while even good actions can be do for the wrong reasons.

That “real choice” is indeed the most amazing gift of God.

It is a horrible thing to “look” back.

Well said! <3

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

James Murphy said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

James Murphy said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The fact that people actually attempt to rewrite what Paul is saying here, so very clearly... always terrifies me!

ThatCanadianDude_88 · May 23, 2019

TheSeabass said:
The only correct conclusion that can be gained from James is that one is NOT justified by faith only.

In your OP, if "Bill" had belief only then he would have never jumped but sat on the airplane doing nothing.

Similar example, "Bill" is on the third story of a building that is on fire. The firemen below tell "Bill" to jump and they will catch him and bring him to safety.
--If "Bill" has belief only he will do nothing, just wish he was not in the burning building and will end up being burned.
--If "Bill" has a belief that will save him he will act on that belief and jump to safety in the net.

The safety net Jesus provides for men to jump into to be saved consists of belief (John 8:24); repentance (Luke 13:3), confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16). Many, many do not have faith in what Jesus says but try and save themselves from the burning building by their own means.

This post caught my attention.

Think of it this way.

If Bill "believes" and does nothing, does he really believe? The point is that true faith produces action, and not the other way around. It is not that we are active in our works, it's that we are active in our believing which is what leads us into the works God has prepared for us in Christ Jesus (Epeshians 2:10). There were many disciples of Jesus who did not truly believe in Him, and were quick to abandon Him when their unbelief became exposed (John 6:66). Even when it came to the disciples that did believe in Him, the problem of inaction is always identified as having little or no faith.

Salvation is guaranteed, faith is our part - and even in the face of inaction or unbelief, it is not that faith automatically fails so as to produce apostasy, look at the apostles.

In a sense, works are like a thermometer which simply gauges a room's temperature. A thermometer has no ability to change the temperature, it only reads it. Your works have no ability to change a thing but can serve as a gauge of where you are spiritually. Your works are subject to your faith and flow out of your faith and are the means God provides to build your faith as you serve Him. It is all centered on God through Christ.

We are justified by grace, through faith and not of works. Believing in Christ is the one thing that saves you and not believing in Him is the one thing that condemns you. You can't even repent if you don't believe! You need to begin here.

Adding works as a prerequisite to salvation is to not understand the role that works play in our salvation. Abraham did not to do anything aside from listen to God and believe Him, and it was accounted to Him as righteousness (Romans 4:3).

John 6:28-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

John 8:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Hebrews 3:12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Peril of Unbelief
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

rockytopva · May 23, 2019

The Ordinances of the Azusa Street Mission were Basically Seven (and this is my logic on salvation) ….

Justification by faith – We are saved, or justified, by simple faith in Christ.
Sanctification by faith - As a second definite work of grace upon the heart and evidenced by the sweet spirit of Christ in the experience!
Power - The baptism in the Holy Ghost is a gift of power upon the sanctified life, anointing it in service and in work, with the speaking in tongues as one of the ‘signs following’ in the baptized believer along with casting out devils, healing the sick and the fruits of the Spirit accompanying the signs.
Marriage – As a holy union between a man and a woman.
Water Baptism – On those who have reached the age of accountability
Communion - “We believe in the ordinance of the Lord’s supper as instituted by Jesus and followed by the apostles, and teach that it should be frequently observed in holy reverence.”
Foot Washing - “We believe in feet washing as an ordinance, as it was established by our Master before the Lord’s supper, according to John 13:4-18, and believe it was practiced by the Apostles and disciples through the First Century” (1 Tim. 5:10).

The Methods to the Fullness of the Spirit of God were Basically Seven....

1. Justification - Faith to enter in
2. Salvation - Christ is our sacrifice
3. Sanctification - "Sanctification makes us clean on the inside." - William Seymour
4. Bible Reading - At the Table of Shewbread
5. Spiritual Fruit - At the Lampstand
6. Prayer and Praise meetings - At the Altar of Golden Incense
7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit - In the Holy of Holies

And in William Seymours own handwriting....

As far as tongues William Seymour says that if people weren’t expressing the I Corinthians 13 kind of love, then, “I care not how many tongues you may have, you have not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.” William Seymour also warned that, “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.”

Not David · May 23, 2019

James Murphy said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yeah, nobody can work to get God's grace. It still does not say "faith alone"

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Yeah, nobody can work to get God's grace. It still does not say "faith alone"

We provide the initial response to the call of Christ... by Faith.

Does He not naturally provide the rest?

Not David · May 23, 2019

Grip Docility said:
We provide the initial response to the call of Christ... by Faith.

Does He not naturally provide the rest?

God always provides, but we just don't stop following God. It is something we must endure everyday

Concord1968 · May 23, 2019

Grip Docility said:
We provide the initial response to the call of Christ... by Faith.

Does He not naturally provide the rest?

Of course, people also like to ignore that "not a result of works" part ^_^

Not David · May 23, 2019

James Murphy said:
Of course, people also like to ignore that "not a result of works" part

I provided an explanation so it is not "ignoring".

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I provided an explanation so it is not "ignoring".

When you specify holding to belief... Is this the act of clinging to Christ alone, or more?

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

David Cabrera said:
God always provides, but we just don't stop following God. It is something we must endure everyday

Could you please articulate what you mean by “following God”. There may be a simple understanding.

TheSeabass · May 23, 2019

Grip Docility said:
You’re opening statement shows you misunderstand James.

What you have unknowingly said... as so many do... is that “The Salvic Work Of Jesus is Insufficient to save”.

Martin Luther initially called James an Epistle of straw. Later, near his death, he saw that James was compatible with Salvation by Faith.

If I were to exegete James, you would find that James condemns the sort of statement that looks at works for Salvation.

Hint... (Salvation for Sex workers).. and note... Rahab was saved in a typification Of Apocalyptic Times.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"

Easy words to understand. Faith only does not justify.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (what kind of works?) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

More clear, easy words to understand. Abraham was justified by works. Not by works of merit per (Ephesians 2:9), not by works of the OT law of Moses per (Romans 4:5) but justified by obedient works in doing the will of God. If Abraham simply had faith only and not obey by offering Isaac then his faith only would not justify him.

In Romans 6:17-18, Paul showed how those Jewish converts in Rome to whom he was writing had been justified:

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then made free from sin/justified

Their obedience came BEFORE justification. And they, like Abraham, were justified by their obedience to God.

James--------(obedient) works>>>>>>>>justified
Paul-----------obey from the heart>>>>>justified/freed from sin

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, then Paul and James are in 100% total agreement that obedience leads one to justification. Luther's personal philosophy was out of step with both Paul and James.

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

The Bible teaches us there are just two fates for us, we will either be eternally saved or be eternally condemned. Paul points out both of these alternatives in verse 16:

We are serving either:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

We each are serving one of these two. I serve obedience unto righteousness. Luther's 'faith only' eliminates #2..

Which do you serve?

Not David · May 23, 2019

Grip Docility said:
When you specify holding to belief... Is this the act of clinging to Christ alone, or more?

I would be interested in what you mean "clinging to Christ alone", because some people can interpret it in different ways

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

TheSeabass said:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"

Easy words to understand. Faith only does not justify.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (what kind of works?) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

More clear, easy words to understand. Abraham was justified by works. Not by works of merit per (Ephesians 2:9), not by works of the OT law of Moses per (Romans 4:5) but justified by obedient works in doing the will of God. If Abraham simply had faith only and not obey by offering Isaac then his faith only would not justify him.

In Romans 6:17-18, Paul showed how those Jewish converts in Rome to whom he was writing had been justified:

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then made free from sin/justified

Their obedience came BEFORE justification. And they; like Abraham were justified by their obedience to God.

James--------(obedient) works>>>>>>>>justified
Paul-----------obey from the heart>>>>>justified/freed from sin

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, then Paul and James are in 100% total agreement that obedience leads one to justification. Luther's personal philosophy was out of step with both Paul and James.

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

The Bible teaches us there are just two fates for us, we will either be eternally saved or be eternally condemned. Paul points out both of these alternatives in verse 16:

We are serving either:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

We each are serving one of these two. I serve obedience unto righteousness. Luther's 'faith only' eliminates #2..

Which do you serve?

I serve Christ. More specifically, I am told by all of Scripture... (Isaiah 43:11) that the works (Exodus 14:14) Of God are the Works that Save us.

His Life, Death, Burial and Resurrection culminate in our complete salvation.

Our response in Belief is our Work.

He does the rest. The complete travel package is provided, but I have to pick it up and trust Him.

Not David · May 23, 2019

TheSeabass said:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"

Easy words to understand. Faith only does not justify.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (what kind of works?) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

More clear, easy words to understand. Abraham was justified by works. Not by works of merit per (Ephesians 2:9), not by works of the OT law of Moses per (Romans 4:5) but justified by obedient works in doing the will of God. If Abraham simply had faith only and not obey by offering Isaac then his faith only would not justify him.

In Romans 6:17-18, Paul showed how those Jewish converts in Rome to whom he was writing had been justified:

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then made free from sin/justified

Their obedience came BEFORE justification. And they; like Abraham were justified by their obedience to God.

James--------(obedient) works>>>>>>>>justified
Paul-----------obey from the heart>>>>>justified/freed from sin

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, then Paul and James are in 100% total agreement that obedience leads one to justification. Luther's personal philosophy was out of step with both Paul and James.

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

The Bible teaches us there are just two fates for us, we will either be eternally saved or be eternally condemned. Paul points out both of these alternatives in verse 16:

We are serving either:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

We each are serving one of these two. I serve obedience unto righteousness. Luther's 'faith only' eliminates #2..

Which do you serve?

Exactly! Also Paul when talking about "works" is talking about the Jewish law which is not the one that brings salvation. Plus, him mentioning "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" takes away the idea that we have no will in doing godly works.

Grip Docility · May 23, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I would be interested in what you mean "clinging to Christ alone", because some people can interpret it in different ways

Okay... obedience to the Gospel, is our Belief.

What I am saying is... that Jesus is our total Salvation and upon accepting Him, I have Salvational assurance.

What does “Obedience” mean to you?

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