Pre-Trib Deception in the Last Times

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This was taken from gotquestions.org:

"Question: "What are tribulation saints?"

"Answer: The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

According to the writer of that article, Revelation 7:14 is proof that the "Tribulation" Saints are in a group all by themselves. Do you see the problem with that argument? All that verse says is that these are Saints who will be ALIVE during the Great Tribulation, and NOTHING more. This is a clear example of eisegesis! Now here are other Problems with the Pre-Trib rapture view:"

Now here are my refutations below:

There are two last trumpets.
There are two group of God's elect.

"Immediately [AFTER THE TRIBULATION] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

The angels are sent to gather the ELECT of God that are alive at the END of the Tribulation. Now according to Pre-tribbers, this is a different group of ELECT Saints. Really? Based on what? They would have to explain why:

The Tribulation Saints are in a different group than all other Saints in the New Testament.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church.
The Tribulation Saints do NOT participate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Bride of Christ (See above).

Another silly argument made by Pre-tribbers is that it would make NO SENSE for Christ to gather His Saints AFTER the Tribulation only to come back IMMEDIATELY to set up His 1,000 Year reign on Earth. Where does it state ANYWHERE that Christ returns IMMEDIATELY after gathering His Elect? It does not give any specific time frame regarding this. More eisegesis! These poor Saints of the Tribulation are LEFT OUT of the Marriage Ceremony of the Bridegroom and His Bride; and this supposedly takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation according to them. HUGE ERROR! And if these Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church (the body of Christ), then what are they a part of? The Bible CLEARLY SAYS:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OF GENTILES], whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Poor Tribulation Saints are LEFT OUT! Is this the God you worship? Is the Jesus Christ of the Bible? What an insult!!! And finally, the presence of the Lord (Grk. Parousia) is where the Saints meet the Lord in the air in the famous Rapture passage, and what the Pre-tribbers fail to realize is that this is to be understood by its cultural context: and this is a meet and greet of the King in the air to WELCOME HIM, and from that point, they return with the King to reign. Pre-Tribbers are sneaky, and do their very best to avoid this truth. It appears as most Pre-tribbers are AFRAID of death and persecution. God and Christ PROMISED to keep Believers FROM (not "OUT" as most mistranslate the Greek words, "tereo ek") the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10). You will find that the Saints are PROTECTED from God's Wrath poured upon all the unbelieving during the Tribulation, but yet they are still present during that time.

John MacArthur said that he has studied eschatology for over 40 years and has never changed his view regarding the Pre-Trib rapture. Well Johnny Boy, that is NOT an argument, and that will NOT work in a formal debate. Nice Try! Other than that, he's a pretty solid expository preacher.

God Bless!
 

Acts2:38

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This was taken from gotquestions.org:

"Question: "What are tribulation saints?"

"Answer: The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

According to the writer of that article, Revelation 7:14 is proof that the "Tribulation" Saints are in a group all by themselves. Do you see the problem with that argument? All that verse says is that these are Saints who will be ALIVE during the Great Tribulation, and NOTHING more. This is a clear example of eisegesis! Now here are other Problems with the Pre-Trib rapture view:"

Now here are my refutations below:

There are two last trumpets.
There are two group of God's elect.

"Immediately [AFTER THE TRIBULATION] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

The angels are sent to gather the ELECT of God that are alive at the END of the Tribulation. Now according to Pre-tribbers, this is a different group of ELECT Saints. Really? Based on what? They would have to explain why:

The Tribulation Saints are in a different group than all other Saints in the New Testament.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church.
The Tribulation Saints do NOT participate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Bride of Christ (See above).

Another silly argument made by Pre-tribbers is that it would make NO SENSE for Christ to gather His Saints AFTER the Tribulation only to come back IMMEDIATELY to set up His 1,000 Year reign on Earth. Where does it state ANYWHERE that Christ returns IMMEDIATELY after gathering His Elect? It does not give any specific time frame regarding this. More eisegesis! These poor Saints of the Tribulation are LEFT OUT of the Marriage Ceremony of the Bridegroom and His Bride; and this supposedly takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation according to them. HUGE ERROR! And if these Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church (the body of Christ), then what are they a part of? The Bible CLEARLY SAYS:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OF GENTILES], whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Poor Tribulation Saints are LEFT OUT! Is this the God you worship? Is the Jesus Christ of the Bible? What an insult!!! And finally, the presence of the Lord (Grk. Parousia) is where the Saints meet the Lord in the air in the famous Rapture passage, and what the Pre-tribbers fail to realize is that this is to be understood by its cultural context: and this is a meet and greet of the King in the air to WELCOME HIM, and from that point, they return with the King to reign. Pre-Tribbers are sneaky, and do their very best to avoid this truth. It appears as most Pre-tribbers are AFRAID of death and persecution. God and Christ PROMISED to keep Believers FROM (not "OUT" as most mistranslate the Greek words, "tereo ek") the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10). You will find that the Saints are PROTECTED from God's Wrath poured upon all the unbelieving during the Tribulation, but yet they are still present during that time.

John MacArthur said that he has studied eschatology for over 40 years and has never changed his view regarding the Pre-Trib rapture. Well Johnny Boy, that is NOT an argument, and that will NOT work in a formal debate. Nice Try! Other than that, he's a pretty solid expository preacher.

God Bless!
This was taken from gotquestions.org:

"Question: "What are tribulation saints?"

"Answer: The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

According to the writer of that article, Revelation 7:14 is proof that the "Tribulation" Saints are in a group all by themselves. Do you see the problem with that argument? All that verse says is that these are Saints who will be ALIVE during the Great Tribulation, and NOTHING more. This is a clear example of eisegesis! Now here are other Problems with the Pre-Trib rapture view:"

Now here are my refutations below:

There are two last trumpets.
There are two group of God's elect.

"Immediately [AFTER THE TRIBULATION] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

The angels are sent to gather the ELECT of God that are alive at the END of the Tribulation. Now according to Pre-tribbers, this is a different group of ELECT Saints. Really? Based on what? They would have to explain why:

The Tribulation Saints are in a different group than all other Saints in the New Testament.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church.
The Tribulation Saints do NOT participate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Bride of Christ (See above).

Another silly argument made by Pre-tribbers is that it would make NO SENSE for Christ to gather His Saints AFTER the Tribulation only to come back IMMEDIATELY to set up His 1,000 Year reign on Earth. Where does it state ANYWHERE that Christ returns IMMEDIATELY after gathering His Elect? It does not give any specific time frame regarding this. More eisegesis! These poor Saints of the Tribulation are LEFT OUT of the Marriage Ceremony of the Bridegroom and His Bride; and this supposedly takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation according to them. HUGE ERROR! And if these Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church (the body of Christ), then what are they a part of? The Bible CLEARLY SAYS:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OF GENTILES], whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Poor Tribulation Saints are LEFT OUT! Is this the God you worship? Is the Jesus Christ of the Bible? What an insult!!! And finally, the presence of the Lord (Grk. Parousia) is where the Saints meet the Lord in the air in the famous Rapture passage, and what the Pre-tribbers fail to realize is that this is to be understood by its cultural context: and this is a meet and greet of the King in the air to WELCOME HIM, and from that point, they return with the King to reign. Pre-Tribbers are sneaky, and do their very best to avoid this truth. It appears as most Pre-tribbers are AFRAID of death and persecution. God and Christ PROMISED to keep Believers FROM (not "OUT" as most mistranslate the Greek words, "tereo ek") the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10). You will find that the Saints are PROTECTED from God's Wrath poured upon all the unbelieving during the Tribulation, but yet they are still present during that time.

John MacArthur said that he has studied eschatology for over 40 years and has never changed his view regarding the Pre-Trib rapture. Well Johnny Boy, that is NOT an argument, and that will NOT work in a formal debate. Nice Try! Other than that, he's a pretty solid expository preacher.

God Bless!

You forgot another 2 points:
When that day does come, the earth and heavens will be destroyed. So how will he reign on the earth? 2 Peter 3:10

Also, Davids descendants, thanks to Coniah,which is what Christ falls under See Matthew 1, will never rule in Judah. Jer. 22:24 and 30. So where is he going to rule then? New York or Vatican City? :laughing:
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Also, Davids descendants, thanks to Coniah,which is what Christ falls under See Matthew 1, will never rule in Judah. Jer. 22:24 and 30. So where is he going to rule then?
What? This is subject to testing and verifying.

Where will who rule ?

Jerusalem ? New Jerusalem ?

Obviously not in italy or new ork.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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This was taken from gotquestions.org:
"Question: "What are tribulation saints?"..........
John MacArthur said that he has studied eschatology for over 40 years and has never changed his view regarding the Pre-Trib rapture. Well Johnny Boy, that is NOT an argument, and that will NOT work in a formal debate. Nice Try! Other than that, he's a pretty solid expository preacher.
God Bless!
Not necessarily a solid expository preacher.
Others have long exposed his teaching as false, and as a false gospel ....
The fact he expouses YEC is enough for me not to embrace his teachings, along with his dispensationalist pre-trib rapture views. Some info from wiki:

John F. MacArthur - Wikipedia

John Fullerton MacArthur Jr. (born June 19, 1939) is an American pastor and author known for his internationally syndicated Christian teaching radio program Grace to You. He has been the pastor-teacher of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, since February 9, 1969.[1] He is also the current president of The Master's University in Santa Clarita, California, and The Master's Seminary in Los Angeles California.......................

In 1985, MacArthur became the president of The Master's University (formerly Los Angeles Baptist College), an accredited four-year liberal-arts Christian college;[18] and, in 1986, he founded The Master's Seminary. MacArthur also received honorary doctorates from Talbot Theological Seminary (Doctor of Divinity, 1977) and from Grace Graduate School (1976).[19]

Nearly 43 years after beginning in the pulpit of Grace Community, MacArthur completed one of his own life goals,[1] that of preaching through the entire New Testament, on June 5, 2011,[20] at the end of his projected target window, stated the previous January, to finish "some time in the summer".[1] In 2015, the MacArthur New Testament Commentary series was completed.[21] MacArthur is married to his wife, Patricia[22] and together they have four children and fifteen grandchildren....................

Theological views

Young-Earth Creationism

MacArthur advocates young-earth creationism in his book The Battle For the Beginning (2001), and in his sermons.[24] Speaking about evolutionary theory, he writes that Christians "ought to expose such lies for what they are and oppose them vigorously".
He argues that "the battle for the beginning is ultimately a battle between two mutually exclusive faiths – faith in Scripture versus faith in anti-theistic hypotheses. It is not really a battle between science and the Bible."..........................

MacArthur is a premillennialist and pre-tribulationist in regards to the timing of the Rapture and other end-time events, stating, "I'm committed to the fact that Jesus will come to set up a literal earthly kingdom and that He will come seven years before the kingdom, He will come prior to the tribulation." [26] However, he has tried to distance himself from others within this school of interpretation, such as minister Tim LaHaye and novelist Jerry B. Jenkins of Left Behind series fame. MacArthur remarked during a sermon, "...somebody out there is going to say, "Oh boy, he's into the Left Behind series." No—I'm not into Rapture-fiction and I'm not into wacky charts. You don't see me up here with a big chart and a stick. And I'm not into newspaper exegesis where...everything that happens in the news fulfills some obscure Old Testament prophecy...I reject the wacky world of newspaper exegesis and cartoon eschatology and crazy interpretation like the locusts of Revelation 9 being helicopters..."...............

Law and Covenant
MacArthur describes himself as a "leaky dispensationalist".[28] While he holds to premillennialism and a pre-tribulational Rapture of the Church and literal fulfillment of all the covenant promises made to the Jews, he rejects some of the classic dispensational ideas, such as the Law having no application to the Church. MacArthur stated, "I'm not into all that is traditionally known as dispensationalism, seven dispensations, two kingdoms, two New Covenants, two ways of salvation, discontinuity between the Old Testament and the New."............

In December 1989, the Bible Broadcasting Network terminated MacArthur's Grace to You program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ and "Lordship salvation." Davey called these teachings "confusing".
In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a "....drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to" and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "....convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism...." MacArthur preaches salvations by election of God's sovereignty.[31] However, the term "Hyper-Calvinism" is used by some to denote 5-point Calvinism or even any strong defense of Calvinism, rather than the historical "Hyper-Calvinism" position that only the "Elect" may be offered the Gospel (compare with the historical teaching of all Protestant denominations, including MacArthur, of the free offer of the gospel). This position does not seem to accurately reflect MacArthur's position in his sermons. The controversy concerning the efficacy of Christ's blood stems from MacArthur's statement that it is not the literal liquid blood of Christ that saves, but his sacrificial death on the Cross, a view that he espoused in an article titled "Not His Bleeding, but His Dying," published in the May 1976 issue of the Grace to You family paper distributed to his church. MacArthur himself, though, later clarified what was stated of him in the article, noting his position concerning Christ's blood and death in atonement, mentioning that the efficacy of Christ's blood is not some particular physical property of the blood itself, but the fact that He shed blood in dying, and his affirmation that Christ's blood in death was necessary to satisfy God's holy requirement for atonement.[32]
 
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nolidad

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This was taken from gotquestions.org:

"Question: "What are tribulation saints?"

"Answer: The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

According to the writer of that article, Revelation 7:14 is proof that the "Tribulation" Saints are in a group all by themselves. Do you see the problem with that argument? All that verse says is that these are Saints who will be ALIVE during the Great Tribulation, and NOTHING more. This is a clear example of eisegesis! Now here are other Problems with the Pre-Trib rapture view:"

Now here are my refutations below:

There are two last trumpets.
There are two group of God's elect.

"Immediately [AFTER THE TRIBULATION] of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and [THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31)

The angels are sent to gather the ELECT of God that are alive at the END of the Tribulation. Now according to Pre-tribbers, this is a different group of ELECT Saints. Really? Based on what? They would have to explain why:

The Tribulation Saints are in a different group than all other Saints in the New Testament.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church.
The Tribulation Saints do NOT participate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Bride of Christ (See above).

Another silly argument made by Pre-tribbers is that it would make NO SENSE for Christ to gather His Saints AFTER the Tribulation only to come back IMMEDIATELY to set up His 1,000 Year reign on Earth. Where does it state ANYWHERE that Christ returns IMMEDIATELY after gathering His Elect? It does not give any specific time frame regarding this. More eisegesis! These poor Saints of the Tribulation are LEFT OUT of the Marriage Ceremony of the Bridegroom and His Bride; and this supposedly takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation according to them. HUGE ERROR! And if these Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church (the body of Christ), then what are they a part of? The Bible CLEARLY SAYS:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. [FOR BY ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OF GENTILES], whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

Poor Tribulation Saints are LEFT OUT! Is this the God you worship? Is the Jesus Christ of the Bible? What an insult!!! And finally, the presence of the Lord (Grk. Parousia) is where the Saints meet the Lord in the air in the famous Rapture passage, and what the Pre-tribbers fail to realize is that this is to be understood by its cultural context: and this is a meet and greet of the King in the air to WELCOME HIM, and from that point, they return with the King to reign. Pre-Tribbers are sneaky, and do their very best to avoid this truth. It appears as most Pre-tribbers are AFRAID of death and persecution. God and Christ PROMISED to keep Believers FROM (not "OUT" as most mistranslate the Greek words, "tereo ek") the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10). You will find that the Saints are PROTECTED from God's Wrath poured upon all the unbelieving during the Tribulation, but yet they are still present during that time.

John MacArthur said that he has studied eschatology for over 40 years and has never changed his view regarding the Pre-Trib rapture. Well Johnny Boy, that is NOT an argument, and that will NOT work in a formal debate. Nice Try! Other than that, he's a pretty solid expository preacher.

God Bless!


Well the problem is you do not understand that OT saints are the friends of teh bridegroom, the church is the bride of Christ and the Trib saints are the trib saints on earth!

All these positions are for different venues in the millennial kingdom! Once eternity is established we just do not know what will take place!

Instead of e writing a long treatise , I would encourage you to ariel.org, click the resource tab then download free the manuscript on the rapture of the church. It is 23 pages but loaded with biblical references why the church cannot go into the 70th week of Daniel.

But one big reason why the church is yanked off the planet before the trib is the big reason for the 70 weeks!

Dan. 24: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

All seventy weeks are for Israel and Jerusalem! not the church.

Then an eisegetical conclusion is that we see the bride in heaven while the trib is going on and she is clothed in clean white linien! This as the after result fo the bema seat judgment. And that takes some time!
 
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Acts2:38

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Well the problem is you do not understand that OT saints are the friends of teh bridegroom, the church is the bride of Christ and the Trib saints are the trib saints on earth!

You do realize that the "church" IS THE "saints" right?

Church in the greek is ekklesia just means the assembly of people. It is the assembly of people in Christs body, His kingdom.

Saints is just another way to mention those verse same people.

You act like they are two different things. They are not.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You do realize that the "church" IS THE "saints" right?

Church in the greek is ekklesia just means the assembly of people. It is the assembly of people in Christs body, His kingdom.

Saints is just another way to mention those verse same people.

You act like they are two different things. They are not.
"church"
"Ekklesia"
not always the same.

"assembly of people" ? Usually NOT Ekklesia - most assemblies of people are enemies of Christ.

SET APART by Yahuweh(God) - for Himself - people - EK - EKKLESIA - SET APART PEOPLE .... not just people (of the world).
 
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nolidad

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You do realize that the "church" IS THE "saints" right?

Church in the greek is ekklesia just means the assembly of people. It is the assembly of people in Christs body, His kingdom.

Saints is just another way to mention those verse same people.

You act like they are two different things. They are not.

They very much are different.

Matthew 16:18 [Full Chapter]
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say I have been building my church or will continue to build my church!

The church was born at Pentecost and will end at the rapture!

Paul used the term "in christ" many times. For him it was a technical term that meant those saved since Pentecost!
 
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Douggg

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These poor Saints of the Tribulation are LEFT OUT of the Marriage Ceremony of the Bridegroom and His Bride; and this supposedly takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation according to them. HUGE ERROR! And if these Tribulation Saints are NOT part of the Church (the body of Christ), then what are they a part of? The Bible CLEARLY SAYS:
The assumption being made is that the marriage supper of the Lamb is Jesus to the Church. But to me it makes more sense that the marriage is between Jesus and the Kingdom of God, which he will rule over. There is a thread on this line of thought....Who is the Bride of Christ? (Hint: It's not the Church)

My view is that the rapture could take place pre-trib (a misnomer for pre-70th week) or it may not.
 
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They very much are different.

Matthew 16:18 [Full Chapter]
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say I have been building my church or will continue to build my church!

The church was born at Pentecost and will end at the rapture!

Paul used the term "in christ" many times. For him it was a technical term that meant those saved since Pentecost!

Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Yes, the New Testament Church was born at Pentecost. But its predecessors were the Old Testament Church in the wilderness, and the OT prophets who foretold of the Messiah who would be the Chief Corner Stone of the NT Church.
 
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jgr

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"church"
"Ekklesia"
not always the same.

"assembly of people" ? Usually NOT Ekklesia - most assemblies of people are enemies of Christ.

SET APART by Yahuweh(God) - for Himself - people - EK - EKKLESIA - SET APART PEOPLE .... not just people (of the world).

1577 [e]
ekklēsia
ἐκκλησίᾳ
congregation
N-DFS

"in the Sept. often equivalent to קָהָל, the assembly of the Israelites,Judges 21:8; 1 Chronicles 29:1, etc., especially when gathered for sacred purposes, Deuteronomy 31:30 (Deuteronomy 32:1); Joshua 8:35 (Joshua 9:8), etc.; in the N. T. thus in Acts 7:38; Hebrews 2:12."
 
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nolidad

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Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Yes, the New Testament Church was born at Pentecost. But its predecessors were the Old Testament Church in the wilderness, and the OT prophets who foretold of the Messiah who would be the Chief Corner Stone of the NT Church.

One verse does not a doctrine make!

Also then you believe that God in Human flesh misspoke or lied!

If you wish to call the OT saints a church because of one verse- that is your privilege, but it is not biblical.

There are enormous differences between the two!

The OT saints (Israel) are the wife of Jehovah, the church is the espoused of Christ and will be wed in the future!

OT saints were not baptized in the Holy Spirit as is required to be a member of the body of Christ!

OT saints did not have faith in Christ-the Church has to believe in Jesus!

OT saints will not be raptured from their graves- NT saints will

The church is in Christ- OT saints are not!

Paul in ephesians was speaking of the mystery of the church in that Gentiles would be equal memebers with Jews without becoming proselytes.;/ Paul said the law was a wall to keep Gentiles as Gentiles away from the Jew.

Yes the church is built upon the prophets! For they prophesied of His coming to earth!

Israel was promised an earthly kingdom, the church a heavenly kingdom!

I could go on and on- but the Word of God makes a distinction between Israel and the church- we should as well.

These distinctions AFAWK are only for the millennial kingdom.
 
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nolidad

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The assumption being made is that the marriage supper of the Lamb is Jesus to the Church. But to me it makes more sense that the marriage is between Jesus and the Kingdom of God, which he will rule over. There is a thread on this line of thought....Who is the Bride of Christ? (Hint: It's not the Church)

My view is that the rapture could take place pre-trib (a misnomer for pre-70th week) or it may not.


Well Paul smashed that concept when He told the Corinthians He engaged them to Christ! Jesus doesn't marry an inanimate thing! So much of what Jesus wrote in JOhn 14 and the parables of the bridegroom is all based on the Jewish wedding system.

Besides how can He marry a kingdom? that is not established yet? After He returns to earth with the church, He separates the sheep and goats for the purpose of populating the kingdom. Also after the campaign of Armeggedon, There is time that passes between HIs physical return and the establishment of the kingdom. Daniel 12 speaks of this and there is a specific purpose for that.
 
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nolidad

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Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Yes, the New Testament Church was born at Pentecost. But its predecessors were the Old Testament Church in the wilderness, and the OT prophets who foretold of the Messiah who would be the Chief Corner Stone of the NT Church.


See you are just arguing semantics. You take one use of the word ekklesia and build an entire doctrine around it when the OT calls Israel other things many many more times.

But let me ask you a question. what happened when they left the wilderness? Were they no longer a church?

church is the assembly of believers and the NT church belongs to Jesus while the OT "church" belongs to teh father!
 
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