Adulteress in John and ending of Mark not in early manuscripts?

JohnClay

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They don’t call it a contradiction.
Luke 3:35b-36 - "...the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad"
Genesis 11:12 - "When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah"

Cainan is missing. I think the only possibility of it not being a contradiction is that Cainan should be mentioned in Genesis 11:12 but was skipped and then the author of Luke somehow had knowledge of that missing ancestor.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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So our "earliest manuscripts", that are complete and clearly ommit them, were written in the fourth century, such as the codices Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Prior to this, we already have Church Fathers that mention the Pericope Adulterae and the Long Ending of Mark - meaning, when they were copied, these were already extent, and we are merely dealing with variant versions that had both been present at the time.

So why give primacy to the shorter forms? It is merely the luck of history, of which manuscripts happened to survive, that our "earliest manuscripts" ommit them. The actual reason is that Form Criticism decided that shorter forms are more original, based on the premise that the Gospels aren't unitary narratives, but a combination of stories and anecdotes that the early Church wove together. This is, of course, merely assumption that the Gospels don't represent a real linear remembered narrative, and that longer forms must be later as material was added. But people abridge as much as they add, as we can see in Soviet forms of Doestoeyevsky or abridged Shakespeare or such. The grounds are highly equivocal to affirm the short version 'original' therefore.

Further, the short version of Mark seems abrupt and unfinished, not completing the literary themes within the Gospel. Form Critics say this is why it was later extended, but you may as well argue why the work was left so incomplete in the first place? To me, that rather argues for the Long ending.

But what of the Codices themselves? They possibly represent copies prepared for Constantine, which would explain a lot - certainly the omission of the Pericope Adulterae. Constantine had his wife baked to death in a bathhouse for Adultery, and it certainly would be a Biblical rebuke. Augustine in fact mentions copyists purposefully leaving it out, for fear that it somehow gives wives leniency to sleeping around. So it would make sense for one of the Emperor's henchmen, or merely assidious or oleaginous scribes, to ommit the passage in Bibles made for him to assuage the embarrassment.
 
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Apparently the adulteress that was going to be stoned wasn't in early manuscripts of John:
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia
Also the ending of Mark was added to in later manuscripts:
Mark 16 - Wikipedia
There are many more examples but I'll just focus on these two for now.
My question for Christians is what they believe as far as these additions go. Are they the true word of God?
e.g.
Mark 16:18 - "They will pick up snakes with their hands. And when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all"
The problem is that we don't have any of the original manuscripts, so all the manuscripts that we have are all copies. So, we can't know for sure whether the disputed verses are original or not. The default, giving the verses the benefit of the doubt, is to treat them as genuine Scripture until it can be conclusively proved otherwise.
 
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mark kennedy

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Apparently the adulteress that was going to be stoned wasn't in early manuscripts of John:
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia
Also the ending of Mark was added to in later manuscripts:
Mark 16 - Wikipedia
There are many more examples but I'll just focus on these two for now.
My question for Christians is what they believe as far as these additions go. Are they the true word of God?
e.g.
Mark 16:18 - "They will pick up snakes with their hands. And when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all"
No one is really sure how the ending to Mark got in there but most Christian scholars believe Mark didn't write it, it was a later addition. The passage you are talking about in John 8 is a little less cut and dried but there are some things that don't seem to fit. Jesus is at the Feast of Tabernacles, he has a big showdown with the Scribes and Pharisees, goes up to the Mount of Olives for the evening. He stayed with family there in a town called Bethany when he visited the city. That night the woman caught in adultery, a pretty good moral to the story but a rather odd miracle writing something in the dirt. The next day the Feast of Tabernacles is over and most of the Jews are heading home after the Holy Convocation. But Jesus comes back and picks up his conversation where he had left off the day before. It doesn't appear in some of the earlier manuscripts and while it's not cut and dried it's questionable.

With Genealogies and Chronologies in the Old Testament sometimes the order are inconsistent. None of this really effects doctrine or redemptive history but these imperfections do tend to puzzle Christian scholars greatly. There are a few other things that are suspicious like the ending to the Lord's Prayer that goes, 'to thine be the kingdom, the power and the glory forever amen'. That's not in the oldest manuscripts either but it was a common way to end prayers in the early church. In Revelations where it describes the seven churches it says, 'the churches that are in Asia Minor'. That's not in the oldest manuscripts but what scholars think happened is that it was kind of a note. Someone reading that from say Rome, might never have heard of those cities but they knew where Asia Minor was.

The Bible has these issues, sometimes they take a concerted effort to deal with fairly and effectively. I've come to see them as marks of human handling, actually it would be pretty suspicious if they didn't have those little imperfections because human works seldom do, especially something from antiquity.
 
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redleghunter

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So our "earliest manuscripts", that are complete and clearly ommit them, were written in the fourth century, such as the codices Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Prior to this, we already have Church Fathers that mention the Pericope Adulterae and the Long Ending of Mark - meaning, when they were copied, these were already extent, and we are merely dealing with variant versions that had both been present at the time.
Yes. For some reason skeptics from the 19th century onward somehow believed they were examining the manuscripts for the first time. When we do need to take, heavily, into consideration the manuscripts the early fathers had available and we don't now have copies of.

I find interesting the Latin Vulgate OT was translated by St Jerome from Hebrew manuscripts in his time which are no longer available to us. That is why many of the English translators from the 16th century onward took into account the Latin Vulgate OT when there were discrepancies with other manuscripts of the OT.
 
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Sanoy

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Apparently the adulteress that was going to be stoned wasn't in early manuscripts of John:
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia
Also the ending of Mark was added to in later manuscripts:
Mark 16 - Wikipedia
There are many more examples but I'll just focus on these two for now.
My question for Christians is what they believe as far as these additions go. Are they the true word of God?
e.g.
Mark 16:18 - "They will pick up snakes with their hands. And when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all"
There is certainly an explanation for why the differences exist. We can look at each example separately in a text critical method which can give us a working explanation, but there is no way to know if that working explanation IS the right explanation.

We know that glosses we're a standard practice where a copiest might try to update a text with relatively modern names or to try to complete the authors understanding of a theological point. So in regards to snake handling it seems to fit more into the category of a gloss where the copiest, or investor in the work wanted to incorporate some things from Paul's journey in acts.

We know Christians beliefs about the resurrection were early due to Paul's Creed in 1 Corinthians 15. So this could be just an update to include the more current aspects of the Jesus account.

The account of the adulterous is unknown. It could be an attempt to update the text with what the person paying for the manuscript feels is a legitimate account. I think it is either a true account or a fable meant to transmit a theological message. Either way the theological message is important and valid.
 
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Sanoy

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So why give primacy to the shorter forms? It is merely the luck of history, of which manuscripts happened to survive, that our "earliest manuscripts" ommit them. The actual reason is that Form Criticism decided that shorter forms are more original, based on the premise that the Gospels aren't unitary narratives, but a combination of stories and anecdotes that the early Church wove together. This is, of course, merely assumption that the Gospels don't represent a real linear remembered narrative, and that longer forms must be later as material was added. But people abridge as much as they add, as we can see in Soviet forms of Doestoeyevsky or abridged Shakespeare or such. The grounds are highly equivocal to affirm the short version 'original' therefore.
I have heard that it has been estimated that the book of Romans cost $1k to make. (I forget the actual cost atm but I know it's at least 1k). You couldn't just go down to Costco and get a box of paper, or down to Kinko's for a 10¢ copy. This sort of thing cost a fortune, so much that people washed and reused their scrolls. So your point about the shortness of a text makes a lot of sense. There are many valid reasons to leave something out.
 
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Kate30

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Apparently the adulteress that was going to be stoned wasn't in early manuscripts of John:
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia
Also the ending of Mark was added to in later manuscripts:
Mark 16 - Wikipedia
There are many more examples but I'll just focus on these two for now.
My question for Christians is what they believe as far as these additions go. Are they the true word of God?
e.g.
Mark 16:18 - "They will pick up snakes with their hands. And when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all"
John as to what was accepted as the cannon of scripture. It wasn’t always determined by the earliest sources unless of course you have the originals of which we don’t. The Bible was brought about by a multitude of materials and witness over time that was trusted and excepted by the church. As to the ending of the gospel Mark. John I do find no reason why we would not trust the reading . Was not the apostle Paul bitten by a viper when he was ship wrecked. He simply shrugged the snake off. As to the deadly poison. Well I’m sure the apostles and Gods people have had many poison arrows come their way in life. With the lady taken in adultery from the gospel of John. Those scriptures are very much treasured and loved by the church. Which speak so wonderfully of our Lords compassion, love and forgiveness with redemption from sin. You would like to see those verses removed? I think it would be very sad if they ever were.
 
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Radagast

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Apparently the adulteress that was going to be stoned wasn't in early manuscripts of John:
Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia

It seems likely that this story was in the original, and that some people removed it. That's what Augustine says, at least, and his story is plausible. So, yes, I think it is the word of God.

Also the ending of Mark was added to in later manuscripts:
Mark 16 - Wikipedia

Different endings to Mark have coexisted since very early on. It seems likely that the "long ending" was an addition made quite early on (perhaps because the original ended very abruptly). So maybe not the word of God in this case.
 
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JohnClay

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It seems likely that this story was in the original, and that some people removed it. That's what Augustine says, at least, and his story is plausible. So, yes, I think it is the word of God.
From my special upside down white NIV Bible:
"The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53 - 8:11."
That passage is in small italics and Jesus's words aren't in red.

Perhaps the authors of that NIV are more knowledgeable about what was in the early manuscripts than what a person in the early 400s thought.
 
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Radagast

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From my special upside down white NIV Bible:
"The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53 - 8:11."

That's very true. But, then again, a bunch of other ancient witnesses do quote it as a gospel passage.

Perhaps the authors of that NIV are more knowledgeable about what was in the early manuscripts than what a person in the early 400s thought.

Well, the person in the early 400s had access to many ancient manuscripts that are now lost. And Augustine's explanation seems to me by far the most likely one.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So our "earliest manuscripts", that are complete and clearly ommit them, were written in the fourth century, such as the codices Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. Prior to this, we already have Church Fathers that mention the Pericope Adulterae and the Long Ending of Mark - meaning, when they were copied, these were already extent, and we are merely dealing with variant versions that had both been present at the time.

So why give primacy to the shorter forms? It is merely the luck of history, of which manuscripts happened to survive, that our "earliest manuscripts" ommit them. The actual reason is that Form Criticism decided that shorter forms are more original, based on the premise that the Gospels aren't unitary narratives, but a combination of stories and anecdotes that the early Church wove together. This is, of course, merely assumption that the Gospels don't represent a real linear remembered narrative, and that longer forms must be later as material was added. But people abridge as much as they add, as we can see in Soviet forms of Doestoeyevsky or abridged Shakespeare or such. The grounds are highly equivocal to affirm the short version 'original' therefore.

Further, the short version of Mark seems abrupt and unfinished, not completing the literary themes within the Gospel. Form Critics say this is why it was later extended, but you may as well argue why the work was left so incomplete in the first place? To me, that rather argues for the Long ending.

But what of the Codices themselves? They possibly represent copies prepared for Constantine, which would explain a lot - certainly the omission of the Pericope Adulterae. Constantine had his wife baked to death in a bathhouse for Adultery, and it certainly would be a Biblical rebuke. Augustine in fact mentions copyists purposefully leaving it out, for fear that it somehow gives wives leniency to sleeping around. So it would make sense for one of the Emperor's henchmen, or merely assidious or oleaginous scribes, to ommit the passage in Bibles made for him to assuage the embarrassment.

I remember reading that when Wulfila made his translation of the Bible for the Goths, the books of the Kings were intentionally left out, out of fear that the violence in the narratives might be seen as justification for violence among the Goths.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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JohnClay

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I thought this was relevant:
Neither Do I Condemn You
....most New Testament scholars do not think it was part of the Gospel of John when it was first written, but was added centuries later...

.... 5. When the story starts to appear in manuscript copies of the Gospel of John, it shows up in three different places other than here (after John 7:36; 7:44; 21:25), and in one manuscript of Luke, it shows up after 21:38.

6. Its style and vocabulary is more unlike the rest of John’s Gospel than any other paragraph in the Gospel.
 
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JohnClay

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I found a new video by NonStampCollector that talks about how Luke was based on Mark. One of the characters kind of has a Christian point of view saying that it could still be the Truth.
So it is about early vs later manuscripts.
 
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Radagast

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....most New Testament scholars do not think it was part of the Gospel of John when it was first written, but was added centuries later...

I don't think anyone's ever counted, but a good many also think it's original.

Certainly, numerous Christians of the 4th century quote it as Scripture. Earlier references also exist, but are less clear-cut.

.... 5. When the story starts to appear in manuscript copies of the Gospel of John, it shows up in three different places other than here (after John 7:36; 7:44; 21:25), and in one manuscript of Luke, it shows up after 21:38.

This is consistent with Augustine's statement that some people took it out -- when people put it back in, they were sometimes confused as to where it should go.

6. Its style and vocabulary is more unlike the rest of John’s Gospel than any other paragraph in the Gospel.

There is some unique vocab (for John). That's explained by the unique topic.

G1636 -- Mt of Olives
G3722 -- daybreak
G1122 -- scribes
G3430 -- adultery
G1888 -- in the act
G3431 -- adultery (v)
G3036 -- stone (v)
G2955 -- stoop
G1961 -- continued
G352 -- un-stoop (v)
G361 -- sinless
G4893 -- conscience
G4245 -- eldest
G2641 -- left (alone)
G3367 -- nobody
G4133 -- besides
G2725 -- accusers
G2632 -- condemn

I found a new video by NonStampCollector that talks about how Luke was based on Mark.

And based on other preexisting material (such as Q). Luke 1:1 pretty much indicates that Luke was largely summarising earlier accounts.
 
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Radagast

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I remember reading that when Wulfila made his translation of the Bible for the Goths, the books of the Kings were intentionally left out, out of fear that the violence in the narratives might be seen as justification for violence among the Goths.

Wasn't he an Arian?
 
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