Is your religion making Americans poor.

I also wanted to add that it's easy to go to a rally and demand the government equal the scales or do something about social inequality etc.

But it's far more difficult to actually go to the poor yourself and be involved in their lives.

The call to the Church is to so the latter, whereas social justice initiatives tend to do the former. Not that the former doesn't have it's place, but the Church is usually more grass roots in its approach.

Matt 25 is far harder than much of today's social justice movements. That's also why I think a call to churches to get formally involved in social justice movements is ill placed. It's not the government who was told to visit those who are sick in Matt 25.

GingerBeer said:

The USA is driven by corporate profit and governed by politicians who are in the pockets of corporate lobbyists and churches are busy making people believe that this is all good and godly and right and as things ought to be. When things go wrong how many pulpits are filled by men and women preaching

(Romans 13:1-5) [1] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgement. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.​

But the scriptures are not written to make people docile. Injustice is not to be accepted. Wealth and power are not to be taken by the strong and denied to the less strong, the old, widows, orphans, the weak, and the poor. The prophets railed against Israel's kings, nobles, and religious leaders when the poor were left homeless in poverty. How much more should churches be doing the same - railing against injustice and poverty and fighting to have it redressed. How much more should christian voters be voting to prevent wealth from being accumulated in the hands of a very small number of families while millions are in abject poverty? So is your religion making Americans poor?

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The poor in the west are far different than those in the third world. In the U.S. the 'poor' are 'vetted' by social service agencies to assess their needs. Many are 'poor' through no one's fault but their own. Poverty in America is more a media event than a reality.

OldWiseGuy said:

The poor in the west are far different than those in the third world. In the U.S. the 'poor' are 'vetted' by social service agencies to assess their needs. Many are 'poor' through no one's fault but their own. Poverty in America is more a media event than a reality.

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Communism and socialism stand on the bodies of the poor simply to attack capitalism. We should have deaf ears to this.

RDKirk said:

Yeah, that's where the unholy "Santa Claus God" doctrine comes from. Slimy preachers use it to convince people to give them money with the promise that God will directly drop manna into their dinner plates. That's also how other slimy Pharisaic types claim, "If you were righteous, you wouldn't be poor."


I would start by not ignoring the previous chapter:

The goal is equality. 2 Corinthians 8:14

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I dont believe in the prosperity gospel. You can start by not ignoring the question.

98cwitr said:

Communism and socialism stand on the bodies of the poor simply to attack capitalism. We should have deaf ears to this.

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More than that, they stand on the bodies of the 100+ million that they've mass-murdered.

GingerBeer said:

The USA is driven by corporate profit and governed by politicians who are in the pockets of corporate lobbyists and churches are busy making people believe that this is all good and godly and right and as things ought to be....

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Hmmmm….. care to evidence any of that?

Why don't you start by defining your terms.
Define what you mean by "The USA."
Define what you means by "driven by..."
Define what you mean by "governed by..."
Define what you mean by "churches."


Because the United States of America is a constitutional representative republic that is governed by the citizenry who voted. Socio-economically it is driven by diverse conditions including but not limited to the belief anyone can become anything they wish to become if they work hard enough to be so, limited right of private property, the will of the majority that maintains protections of the minorities, and open (not free) markets. The church is the ekklesia, those called out by God in service to His resurrected son regardless of what congregational preachers or teachers may say is good or not good.

And I say that to a poster who is protesting corporate profit while asserting a family owned company product as his avatar. That company has a distribution contract with PepsiCo selling in more than 40 countries globally, presumably for profit.

W2L said:

I dont believe in the prosperity gospel. You can start by not ignoring the question.

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The answer is that the goal is equality. People who are not striving for equality won't have a gun to their heads, but they're clearly not working for the stated goal of the Body of Christ--which is to keep all its members healthy and effective.

GingerBeer said:

That's harsh.

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The cold hard facts of life. Read my thread on suicide.

Suicide. Who is responsible?

Harsh is communism and socialism.

RDKirk said:

The answer is that the goal is equality. People who are not striving for equality won't have a gun to their heads, but they're clearly not working for the stated goal of the Body of Christ--which is to keep all its members healthy and effective.

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Paul says to let everyone give whats in their heart, not being forced to give. Socialism doesnt follow that teaching.

I don't think we should worry about how many people are getting rich as much as what they are doing with that. As much as there are greedy, despicable wealthy people There are rich folks who are very giving and kind and "share the wealth" so to speak. Example: the lovely couple with the beach-side mansion that opened their home to college students having a retreat for a church function when I was in college. They let them sleep in the house and use the kitchens and the furniture and offered up their time and resources to help the church. Their home has been used for things like that many times through the years. It's how they give back and thank God for the blessings they have. On the other hand, there's poor folks who are just trying to take care of their family and love Jesus at the same time and there's poor folks who will scheme and cheat the welfare systems for drug money. Anyone in any walk of life can show the fruits of the spirit or do the opposite. So really, the prayer shouldn't be "don't let too many people get rich while the poor get more poor" it should be "work in the hearts of the wealthy and those with power and those with access to future power so that they remember who their savior is and treat fellow Christians and all of society with respect"

GingerBeer said:

The USA is driven by corporate profit and governed by politicians who are in the pockets of corporate lobbyists and churches are busy making people believe that this is all good and godly and right and as things ought to be.

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I think a real problem here is the implicit American theological position that "You're poor because you deserve it, it's God's punishment upon you, therefore God's will be done!"

That manifests itself in various ways over the denominations, but it basically amounts to a tremendous unwillingness to help the poor.

However, I note in scripture--both OT and NT--that God demands His people care for the poor without regard to determining whether they deserve to be poor. For sure, slothfulness can result in poverty--there are Proverbs to that effect--but God's extreme, repeated, consistent emphasis on caring for the poor indicates that either He doesn't consider it their fault...or He intends the rest of us to take care of them anyway...or both.

Isaiah points out that the sole reason God allowed Judah to fall into captivity was because they failed to care for widows and orphans. God was willing to let them get by with everything else, but not that.

I suspect it's because God knows in this fallen world that the operation of worldly society is to exploit people so that there will be poor despite all their best efforts. Most poor people work extremely hard.

W2L said:

Paul says to let everyone give whats in their heart, not being forced to give. Socialism doesnt follow that teaching.

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And you keep deflecting from scripture by running away crying, "Socialism!"

That's really a neat trick Satan has devised to keep the wealthiest Christians in history from using it as the Lord commands.

RDKirk said:

And you keep deflecting from scripture by running away crying, "Socialism!"

That's really a neat trick Satan has devised to keep the wealthiest Christians in history from using it as the Lord commands.

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No, you are running away saying socialism aka equality. You can surely preach that the rich should give to the poor, but forcing them under a socialist theocracy is not biblical.

W2L said:

No, you are running away saying socialism aka equality. You can surely preach that the rich should give to the poor, but forcing them under a socialist theocracy is not biblical.

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If the discussion is about what the king should do, then the bible clearly gives the king the authority to do whatever he considers it necessary to maintain the order of worldly society, including levying taxes as the king sees fit. Absolutely nothing nowhere in scripture gives God's people the right to refuse to pay the king's taxes. A tax revolt was, in fact, what caused the downfall of the northern kingdom of Israel--which is the lesson taught by scripture about the consequences of tax rebellion. There is zero biblical support for opposing the king's right to levy taxes.

If the discussion is about how resources should be distributed within the Body of Christ, then scripture is equally clear: "The goal is equality." Christians who do not work toward that goal within the Body of Christ are opposing God.

RDKirk said:

If the discussion is about what the king should do, then the bible clearly gives the king the authority to do whatever he considers it necessary to maintain the order of worldly society, including levying taxes as the king sees fit. Absolutely nothing nowhere in scripture gives God's people the right to refuse to pay the king's taxes. A tax revolt was, in fact, what caused the downfall of the northern kingdom of Israel--which is the lesson taught by scripture about the consequences of tax rebellion. There is zero biblical support for opposing the king's right to levy taxes.

If the discussion is about how resources should be distributed within the Body of Christ, then scripture is equally clear: "The goal is equality." Christians who do not work toward that goal within the Body of Christ are opposing God.

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This appears to be a strawman, because im not against government taxes. Im just saying the church cant levy taxes. You cant marry socialism and the Church.

As already posted we're to help according to Scripture; however, equality isn't possible because Jesus said the poor will ALWAYS be. John 12

dup