Kirsten Gillibrand says anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith"

Are anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith"

  • No, she has it backwards

    Votes: 22 91.7%
  • Yes, she is right the Bible says 'free will' is key to human choice

    Votes: 2 8.3%

  • Total voters
    24

Fantine

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Social justice? How is permitting and supporting the slaughter of 60 million babies (just in the US, just since 1974) social justice? That's a holocaust 10 times bigger than Hitler's. Most self-described social justice churches are total phonies. They don't know Jesus. They wouldn't have protected him if he were in the womb and needed their help. This passage comes to mind.

Matt. 25:44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’​
Gillibrand would tell you that there are more effective ways to combat abortion.

She would cite the abortion statistics of western Europe.

Universal healthcare.
Safety net programs.
Sex education.
Affordable contraception.
Paid maternity and paternity leaves.
Free university for children.

She would ask you why you are accusing her of killing 60 million preborn--when the solution you propose is far less effective.

When the Affordable Care Act mandated contraception coverage, abortion rates went down.

Everything I mentioned above is accepted by at least some Christian churches.

And yes, I agree It's very sad so many conservative chuches are opposed to universal healthcare, affordable higher education, and paid parental leaves. :(
 
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aiki

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Is Kirsten Gillibrand's theology correct?

Of course not.

Flanked by abortion rights advocated at the Georgia state house Thursday, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand said that laws banning or restricting abortion are "against Christian faith."

When a person is about to make a statement about abortion surrounded by abortion advocates as they do so, it is pretty certain the statement will NOT be biblical.

"If you are a person of the Christian faith, one of the tenants of our faith is free will. One of the tenants of our democracy is that we have a separation of church and state, and under no circumstances are we supposed to be imposing our faith on other people. And I think this is an example of that effort," she said at a press conference.

First, I know Calvinist/Reformed folk who hotly deny free will. And they are well within what constitutes being a Christian. Second, its a bit rich that Kirsten spoke of "imposing faith on other people" when 100s of millions of tax dollars are given to abortionists (aka Planned Parenthood). Does the government give taxpayers the freedom not to have their tax dollars distributed to such a vile organization? No. Sounds like some imposing is going on but its not by people of faith.
 
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Calminian

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Gillibrand would tell you that there are more effective ways to combat abortion.

She would cite the abortion statistics of western Europe.

Universal healthcare.
Safety net programs.
Sex education.
Affordable contraception.
Paid maternity and paternity leaves.
Free university for children.

She would ask you why you are accusing her of killing 60 million preborn--when the solution you propose is far less effective.

When the Affordable Care Act mandated contraception coverage, abortion rates went down.

Everything I mentioned above is accepted by at least some Christian churches.

And yes, I agree It's very sad so many conservative chuches are opposed to universal healthcare, affordable higher education, and paid parental leaves. :(

This makes me think about when Christians were trying to abolish slavery. I suppose you and the others, had you lived then, would say,

Don't worry about making slavery illegal. There are better ways to handle this. Just love slave owners and maybe they'll set their slaves free. We're actually less pro-slavery than you, we just know it won't get solved by voting against it, in fact, we're going to vote for the pro-slavery party since they're doing so many other good things.

Christians then would have seen through this lie. Here's an abortion counter if you want to see the stats in the US and worldwide. There is only one road to ending the mass genocide worldwide and that is to lead the world in saying it's wrong and making it illegal.
 
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Fantine

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I don't find your analogy very compelling.

Given that Gillibrand supports free and available contraception, it would be more like Democrats deciding to stop the ships that brought the slaves (i.e. sperm) in and Republicans doing nothing to stop bringing the slaves in but making it illegal for plantation owners to own them.
 
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Calminian

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I don't find your analogy very compelling.

Given that Gillibrand supports free and available contraception, it would be more like Democrats deciding to stop the ships that brought the slaves (i.e. sperm) in and Republicans doing nothing to stop bringing the slaves in but making it illegal for plantation owners to own them.

How has free contraception and affordable contraction been working out? Is it stoping all the ships as you claim? I'm looking at the abortion clock worldwide and babies are dying every second.

For your analogy to work, you'd have to mandate contraceptives on everyone. Is that what Gillibrand is calling for? Or is she merely giving the slave runners a choice?
 
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Fantine

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If you isolate the countries where that is the case, there are far fewer abortions and less teen pregnancy. So yes, ships are being stopped when there is the means to stop them.

I see 100% of Americans seeing abortion as a difficult and often heartbreaking act. I see people with different approaches to minimizing it--neither of which are completely effective.

I find the studies connecting conservatism to authoritarian personality traits to be interesting. I am not saying that as a value judgment, just an interesting piece of data.

I do believe authoritarianism can have a place. Establishing structure is good for children, and there has to be a certain amount (way less than 100%) to bring structure.

I do not believe authoritarianism which can be harsh and punitive is the best way to deal with abortion. That doesn't mean I have no interest in combating it.

The perfect blend is authoritative which allows for some collaborative decision making. Is authoritarianism the best approach for Alabama, where the decision makers are providing NO help for prenatal care, health insurance, disability therapies, housing or food--other than what the federal government requires? NO help to educate single parents and break the cycle of poverty? If Alabama has a compelling interest in the preborn, let's see the step up to bat--in writing
 
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Calminian

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...I see 100% of Americans seeing abortion as a difficult and often heartbreaking act. ...

I don't. I see people celebrating abortion on your side of the isle. Curious how you think you can speak for 100% of Americans.

And I don't see anything about Gillibrand trying stop all abortions (stop the ships). Quite the contrary.

“I will also make sure and guarantee that no matter what state you live in, you will have a right to access full reproductive services, including abortion services,” Gillibrand said.​

You can use buzz words like authoritarianism, but who are the real authoritarians? It is Gillibrand that's trying play God with a certain group of humans, insisting that their murder remains legal. They are apparently worth the risk. Something tells me that if your life were at risk, you'd in the streets with Trump signs begging voters to save you. But since it's babies can't be heard, there is no compassion at all.
 
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Fantine

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I know prro-choice far better than you. Most of my Democratic friends are far more pro-choice than I am. I always tell them that the more extreme (and very very rare) choices they support, the more likely they are to lose a critical mass of the vast majority of Americans who are on the fringe--who, in 2016, saddled us with a president who is at best narcissistic and unqualified and at worst a treasonous despot.

They want to stop abortions by stopping unwanted pregnancies and the poverty and ignorance that is their breeding ground. Many Pro-birth supporters want to stop abortions by sending doctors to jail for 99 years and turning their back on the needs of children whose parents cannot adequately provide for their physical and emotional needs. I think their way is better.
 
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Calminian

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I know prro-choice far better than you.

How do you know? I was pro-choice growing up. It wasn't until I became a Christian I realized it was purely an emotional position. I think I do understand the mindset—the core of which is selfishness. Look at the phrases you're using....

They want to stop abortions by stopping unwanted pregnancies and the poverty and ignorance that is their breeding ground. Many Pro-birth supporters want to stop abortions by sending doctors to jail for 99 years and turning their back on the needs of children whose parents cannot adequately provide for their physical and emotional needs. I think their way is better.

"unwanted" "unplanned" It's very simple. I should never have to bare a child I conceived by accident (so the pro-choice argument goes). That's the majority of abortions and that's the core issue. Mary experienced one of these pregnancies and never droned on about her rights and inconveniences. These are God's children, knit in the womb. I understand the mindset of both pro-choice and pro-life. I don't think you do.
 
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Fantine

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There are Christians on both sides of the abortion issue. The pro-choicers I know are the ones who are running the food pantries and free clinics and lobbying to prevent climactic disasters from destroying our earth. After all, 30 years from now no one will be talking about abortion because they'll be trying to save cities like Miami and NY from going underwater, killing millions. I would like to discuss this more, but I am on my way to help an elderly woman move her furniture and antiques as she awaits the worst flood in 70 years here. What are you doing to help the living today?
 
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Calminian

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There are Christians on both sides of the abortion issue. The pro-choicers I know are the ones who are running the food pantries and free clinics and lobbying to prevent climactic disasters from destroying our earth. After all, 30 years from now no one will be talking about abortion because they'll be trying to save cities like Miami and NY from going underwater, killing millions. I would like to discuss this more, but I am on my way to help an elderly woman move her furniture and antiques as she awaits the worst flood in 70 years here. What are you doing to help the living today?

Wow. Well, this might be news to you, but my pro-life family volunteers at food pantries often. I guess I'm the only one you've meet.

But now let's examine your argument. I help the poor, therefore, it's okay to support the legalized murder of 60 million babies and counting? Think about that. Could a NAZI get away with that same argument? Or any mass murderer for that matter. Yes, I murder, or I support murder in some cases, but hey, I do a lot of good things as well. That is not a valid argument. It's just a distraction from the real issue.

Per your next argument, yes, I realize there are Christians on all sides of many issues. That's because Christians can be wrong, and Christians can fall into all kinds of sin. This also is not an argument. It's only a distraction.

And I'm glad you're helping an elderly woman. I'm simply saying you can do that and help the plight of those facing harm in the womb. All they want from you is a simple vote every couple years or so.
 
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I think a lot of us would say there's no such thing as an unborn baby.

I hope you're not one of them.

Luke 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,
 
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Calminian

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I hope you're not one of them.

Luke 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,

Luke 2:5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child.

The idea that a Christian would deny Jesus was a child or baby in the womb is unthinkable.
 
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hedrick

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I hope you're not one of them.

Luke 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,
The Greek word used includes embryo. The English word "baby" does not. Terms like preborn baby are great propaganda but not good descriptions. Particularly at early stages, which are those protected by Roe v Wade. (Elizabeth seems to have been in the 6th month, when the description becomes a bit more plausible, although I still wouldn't use the term "baby" in English except when doing anti-abortion propaganda.)
 
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hedrick

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On the OP. Gillibrand's claim is dubious. It's true that free will was a critical concept in early Christianity. Indeed Stark argues that it was one of the things that helped Christianity grow. Particularly among women. Christianity provided them with honorable alternatives to "traditional family values."

But after Augustine, the idea that Christianity values individual freedom and choice becomes harder to support. It's certainly an American value, and many American Christians find it compatible with Christianity. In fact I do. But I think Christianity has been a bit ambiguous about both free will and separation of church and state.
 
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Calminian

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The Greek word used includes embryo. The English word "baby" does not. ...

Not true. The english word, baby, also refers to a fetus.

From The American Heritage® Dictionary:
n. A very young child; an infant.
n. An unborn child; a fetus.
n. The youngest member of a family or group.

Also, Vocabulary.com
an unborn child; a human fetus
“I felt healthy and very feminine carrying the baby”
“it was great to feel my baby moving about inside”​

Just as with the greek word, the term "baby" has a range that includes baby in the womb. This is fairly common knowledge. Virtually everyone I've come across refers to their unborn baby as a baby. Hard to believe you've had a different experience. Only the radical activists of our day are trying to make a hardline exclusionary distinction.

For instance: NPR: ‘A Baby Is Not a Baby Until It Is Born’
 
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