Abortion Pill & Morning After Pill Contraception

SPF said:

Well, let's employ some basic logical thinking here. A new human being comes into existence at fertilization. After a new human being is created, they often die "naturally". If we then consider that death was not part of the original plan of God and only came about as a result of the fall..... The logical conclusion I see is that prior to the fall, there probably wouldn't have been miscarriages.

I feel like we make no progress. A new human being comes into existence at fertilization and begins about a 25 year developmental period. But at no point during their 25 years of development are they not a human being. Couple this basic biological fact with the basic Biblical fact that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value...... And you arrive at the inescapable conclusion that the killing of innocent human beings (which begin their existence at fertilization) is immoral.

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Ok, I get this is your view. The scripture I referred to in post #9 (which you responded to only a bit of) -- that scripture says after death the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Therefore the spirit was not in the body before God gave it.

The spirit could only be in the body shortly after conception solely if God placed it there at that time, and not before, since the individual spirit is given by God, so therefore does not arise naturally.

Why think then that God would intentionally place a spirit in any egg He knows will not live even a day for instance?

JacobKStarkey said:

Your opinion is not supported by Scripture or science.

The morning after pill is contraceptive protocol not an abortion.

Leave this to the woman and God.

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Plan B is believed to be contraception because many women don't know human life begins at fertilization. Or, as we have seen so many times in other threads, their religious beliefs do not line up with the Biblical beginning of a human being/person/human life.

Which verse is it, Jeremiah 1:5 I think, that verifies we are human beings at fertilization? One word in it is "sanctified."

SPF said:

Can you be specific about what in my position is not supported by science or Scripture? I'm more than open to changing my position if you can actually demonstrate with supported and logical statements instead of one sentence, unsupported, claims

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Begin with supporting your assertions with evidence from science and scripture.

ChristianForCats said:

Which verse is it, Jeremiah 1:5 I think, that verifies we are human beings at fertilization? One word in it is "sanctified."

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Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you a prophet to the nations."

That God knows us -- our individual spirit -- even long before conception it would seem.

We know it has to fit also though with the Ecclesiastes chapter 12 verse above in post #9 -- that the spirit is given by God, instead of arising naturally on its own.

JacobKStarkey said:

Begin with supporting your assertions with evidence from science and scripture.

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Which of my assertions would you like me to support? I can only assume since you're asking this you're very new to the abortion debate section. Maybe you would be better off jumping over to this particular conversation.

At this juncture, I'm more than willing to support Plan B for victims of rape and incest, provided that the report is filed with the police.

Halbhh said:

Ok, I get this is your view. The scripture I referred to in post #9 (which you responded to only a bit of) -- that scripture says after death the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Therefore the spirit was not in the body before God gave it.

The spirit could only be in the body shortly after conception solely if God placed it there at that time, and not before, since the individual spirit is given by God, so therefore does not arise naturally.

Why think then that God would intentionally place a spirit in any egg He knows will not live even a day for instance?

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First off, given the Genre of Ecclesiastes, I don't know that we can take what it says literally. Afterall, when Christ returns, He is going to redeem and restore all of creation, and we will all reside, physically, here on the new earth.

So perhaps if we wanted to take that passage as literally as possible we could say that for a time after we die we are disembodied spirits up in heaven pending the return of Christ. I would be fine with that.

I don't know of anywhere in Scripture where it indicates there ever exists a living human being without a soul. Therefore, I think the most logical conclusion is that when a new human being is created, that God gives them a soul at that moment. Is it possible that God waits? I guess? But then we might have to engage in discussing when the incarnate Jesus became the incarnate Jesus if it wasn't at fertilization.

SPF said:

First off, given the Genre of Ecclesiastes, I don't know that we can take what it says literally. Afterall, when Christ returns, He is going to redeem and restore all of creation, and we will all reside, physically, here on the new earth.

So perhaps if we wanted to take that passage as literally as possible we could say that for a time after we die we are disembodied spirits up in heaven pending the return of Christ. I would be fine with that.

I don't know of anywhere in Scripture where it indicates there ever exists a living human being without a soul. Therefore, I think the most logical conclusion is that when a new human being is created, that God gives them a soul at that moment. Is it possible that God waits? I guess? But then we might have to engage in discussing when the incarnate Jesus became the incarnate Jesus if it wasn't at fertilization.

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Yes, that was (in the only other discussion I've had on this question) what Redleghunter then asked: What about Christ's spirit? We know Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. We could very reasonably think His Spirit was present from the first moment of physical being then (though this is a guess in fairness). Either that...or the body was first formed (perfect) and then later the perfect spirit arrived, but when? But I wondered: isn't Christ different? He would seem likely different not only in conception alone, but in Spirit definitely.

But still, to try to think of the 'when' the spirit arrives we might be left with no obvious time except for 4 possible key moments (for the rest of us ordinary people), that of fertilization (I think unlikely due to the reasons above previously, about the many nonviable fertilized eggs God knows will die shortly), or implantation of a viable embryo (7-14 days later), or when the woman suddenly feels in a subtle, deep way something (not the same as the testing or thinking or merely noticing the period is late) that she is pregnant, or finally the moment of first true consciousness, which would require we can think both neurons and possibly spirit together (possibly as early as 11 or 12 weeks, but possibly later such as when able to respond to music).

After all, if the body hosts the spirit, and the spirit leaves as consciousness dies....then....logically, the spirit is associated to consciousness. Then it would be plausibly associated to the body through consciousness, thus through neurons, so not associated before neurons.

SPF said:

First off, given the Genre of Ecclesiastes, I don't know that we can take what it says literally. Afterall, when Christ returns, He is going to redeem and restore all of creation, and we will all reside, physically, here on the new earth.

So perhaps if we wanted to take that passage as literally as possible we could say that for a time after we die we are disembodied spirits...

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About this, and you may have already realized this since posting, but remember what Christ said as He died: "into your hands I commend my spirit" and then in 1rst Peter chapter 3 v18-19 we learn more, that His spirit then was able to go to the dead to bring the gospel to the spirits in prison. So, then it would seem we definitely could take that literally as the spirit truly departing the dead body, so then the Ecclesiastes 12 verse seems also literal.

98cwitr said:

At this juncture, I'm more than willing to support Plan B for victims of rape and incest, provided that the report is filed with the police.

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The victim needs to take Plsn B before police finish writing a report to make sure it works though ,right? I would support a police report requirement to get one of the "abortion pills" such as RU-486, but Plan B is, by definition, an emergency drug.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Not according to Scripture.

i.e. in Ekklesia (born again by the Will of Father in heaven), their emotions and feelings and self-life (soul life) and so on is not only set aside when they are re-born, but also are "crucified with Christ",

and turned/ renewed to think His Way , self-lessly, agreeing with His Judgment always, abiding in His Word, as He Says.

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Maybe not but the rape victim may think otherwise.

I admire the rape victim who decides to have the baby and still loves the child as her own after it is born. But most women are not going to see having the baby as much of a pleasantry. I have very strongly pro-life, but I also believe in common sense policies. In the case of rape I believe a woman should have the legal right to chose without being pressured into having the child or aborting it. She is the victim and its her choice, not ours.

Outside of rape cases, I believe abortion should be banned. President Trump also has a common sense approach to abortion.

"Plan B is believed to be contraception because many women don't know human life begins at fertilization" is a false statement.

One verse identifies one individual for one special purpose.

There is no universal application from that verse to the entire canon scripture.

I never let my personal belief overcome actual scripture or science.

Study Ecclesiastes 12 prayerfully and sincerely.

Yahuweh created a body for Yahushua, in the womb of Mary.

Yahuweh gives life to HUMANS, in a woman's womb - LIFE IS A GIFT FROM YAHUWEH, ALWAYS. (and Humans are ALWAYS Human)

individuals certainly can have their own beliefon this issue, but since when why men telling women what to do with unwanted or criminally-forced pregnancies?

JacobKStarkey said:

Why are men telling women what to do with unwanted or criminally-forced pregnancies?

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Perfect question, just sub out “men” for “people.”

Jacob, for one thing, men don't have to worry about Plan B.

Then men can stay out of it, yeah.

JacobKStarkey said:

individuals certainly can have their own beliefon this issue, but since when why men telling women what to do with unwanted or criminally-forced pregnancies?

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Since when does one need to be a specific gender to say that it’s wrong to kill an innocent and vulnerable human being?