What about those who never knew Jesus?

grasping the after wind

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This is where I was going with this. Now in Dante's Inferno there is a Purgatory, people who lived good lives but did not know Jesus, a temporary place. Cause many Christians claim that the truth reaches everyone person on Earth, all 7 Billion people while they are still alive. I have a hard time believing that the truth will reach all 7 Billion people on this Earth before they die, now whether or not they accept the truth is a different story.
Also people said he reveals through creation and conscience. I see two things wrong with that. If you never knew about Jesus, you might believe in God through creation, but you might not believe in only one God. You also don't know what/who God is, since you have no Bible. Second, conscience is not something everyone has, some people are scientifically proven to be sociopaths, as scientists did brain scans of all mass murders and other highly skilled criminals and they are all the same. A very small percentage, like 1 to 3 percent is that way. They can learn right from wrong, but they don't have an innate right from wrong. They might not even know why it is wrong, just that they were told it is wrong.
Edit: John: 6:44. This sounds like Predestination to me. Cause if Predestination, is true, then I feel like me trying is useless, cause I had a dream that I went to Hell when I was eight, and that I would go there when I died, like I could never reach God and he could never reach me. It wasn't the Hell people described, it was a dream, not that my actual soul went there, so it was watered down a lot versus people's souls that have been in the place and came back. And because Joseph could tell people what your dreams mean, I wonder if my dream meant exactly that. I was also told in CCD/Church that you choose to be with or turn away from God.


AFAIK people do not live good lives, God did not say living a good life has any relevance to one's salvation and Jesus is the sole path to salvation. Now with that in mind, how can someone that is completely ignorant of Jesus be saved? Not become saved,, because one cannot earn of find or acquire salvation by any means available to them but how can such a one be saved? Jesus was asked if, as he had said, that entering the Kingdom was like a camel passing through the eye of a needle "how can anyone be saved?". The person they were discussing that prompted this exchange between Jesus and the apostles claimed to have lived not only a good life but a perfect one having kept all the commandments from birth. I believe His response to that question is the only hope any of us, ignorant or wise, has of being saved.

.
 
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The Righterzpen

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This is where I was going with this. Now in Dante's Inferno there is a Purgatory, people who lived good lives but did not know Jesus, a temporary place. Cause many Christians claim that the truth reaches everyone person on Earth, all 7 Billion people while they are still alive. I have a hard time believing that the truth will reach all 7 Billion people on this Earth before they die, now whether or not they accept the truth is a different story.
Also people said he reveals through creation and conscience. I see two things wrong with that. If you never knew about Jesus, you might believe in God through creation, but you might not believe in only one God. You also don't know what/who God is, since you have no Bible. Second, conscience is not something everyone has, some people are scientifically proven to be sociopaths, as scientists did brain scans of all mass murders and other highly skilled criminals and they are all the same. A very small percentage, like 1 to 3 percent is that way. They can learn right from wrong, but they don't have an innate right from wrong. They might not even know why it is wrong, just that they were told it is wrong.
Edit: John: 6:44. This sounds like Predestination to me. Cause if Predestination, is true, then I feel like me trying is useless, cause I had a dream that I went to Hell when I was eight, and that I would go there when I died, like I could never reach God and he could never reach me. It wasn't the Hell people described, it was a dream, not that my actual soul went there, so it was watered down a lot versus people's souls that have been in the place and came back. And because Joseph could tell people what your dreams mean, I wonder if my dream meant exactly that. I was also told in CCD/Church that you choose to be with or turn away from God.

Doctrine of predestination is that - first of all, no one wants God. Romans 3:11 "... none seek after God". Everyone starts at some point or another in a state of unbelief. Coming to believe is a supernatural event and that happens because of God's action. He awakens the sinner to their need for redemption.

People can come to understand God from the witness of creation and their own conscience alone. They come to trust God because of that supernatural awakening, even if the only witness they have is the creation around them and what they understand right or wrong to be based on conscience.

Now obviously the person who has the written revelation of God's word (the Scripture) has an advantage. They have a name by with now they can articulate what they believe. That is their advantage. Yet one can actually "know Christ" and have never heard of Him.

Now sociopaths did not get there "by accident". If you've studied psychology and criminology; you know outcomes are based on not primarily factors of influence but personal choice. It's not that sociopaths don't know the difference between right and wrong. Their issue is they are so narcissistic that they tell themselves "the rules" don't apply to them. Scripture says that the wrath of God is reveled form heaven against all ungodliness. Now narcissistic people won't admit to you that they know; but they know and they WILL be held accountable.

Now as far as your dream goes. If you're worried about or afraid of ending up in hell, that's a good thing. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If you come to a sincere conviction that you deserve God's wrath because of your sin; that's a blessing and that's actually part of the process of spiritual awakening.

The other "half" of predestination; (called irresistible grace) means the choice is made on account of the awakening. The awakening being the work of God that flows forth from His mercy. A person who's been blind all their lives, does not tell the one who gave them sight; make me blind again! And that is the effectual working out of what it means to be elect. So, on the flip side of the realization is gratitude. Thank you God for redeeming me; one who was hopelessly lost; because if I got "what was fair" I'd be in hell!
 
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nolidad

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Okay, so the bible says, "Jesus will know all and all will come to know Jesus." So what happens to those born in a Buddhist country? Let me take that one step further. A group of people are born in a Buddhist country, never learned about Jesus Christ in school, and noone ever taught them about Jesus, so they never had the opportunity to switch religions until they die. They are isolated tribes in Africa and other parts of the world that live how people live back in the stone age. Odds are, noone will ever be able to reach them and teach them about Jesus, and even if they could, they would have to speak their language to teach them. So these people are unfarily condemned to Hell?

'
I did not read all the responses but I will show what Scripture says!

Jesus said unless a person is born from above, they cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3)
Peter said there is salvation in no other name (Buddha, good works etc.) Acts 4
Paul in Romans 10 said people have to believe to be saved!
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Many may answer and say that they will be judged by their works or conscience. This is simply not true!

But let us remember what Gods Word says!

Romans 2: 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Paul in romans 10 made it very specific:

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There is no salvation except by trusting in the death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus !


This is a hard statement for us to have to swallow- but it is true nonetheless.

We also must remember that God has never been under any obligation to save any human being. We rebelled against God not the other way around.

Is god unfair then to those who do never had a chance to even hear the gospel?

Romans 9:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Let me conclude by saying this. If there is any other means by which a person can be saved other than hearing and believing the gospel, then we should cease immediately sending missionaries around the world! For if a person was "saved" by other means and they hear the gospel then they become responsible to the gospel and lose their other means of salvation.
 
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-57

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So being part of the elect obviously depends on the country of birth then.
Given that the gospel for the last 250 years has largely been spread by white Anglo Saxon Protestants, we can rest assured that heaven will be populated by WASPS and the rest of the world can go to hell, literally.

Being of the elect depends upon God sovereignty and providence.
You do understand that the whole world deserves to go to hell. All fall short.
You do understand God wasn't required to save anyone.
You do understand the gate is narrow.
You do know God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and God will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. Romans 9
You do understand There is no one righteous, not even one. 11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Romans 3.
You do understand Jesus is the only way?
You do understand God has to draw you...not woo you like post 17 claims. John 6:44
You do understand God has to grant you the ability to come to Jesus? John 6:65
You do understand people are dead in their sin and trespasses and God has to regenerate you. Eph 2

Salvation isn't a scale where all of your good qualities are placed on one side and bad qualities are placed on the other...then God see's which way it tips.
 
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-57

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Just leave it to God, he is a good God who loves mankind. It seems like a lot of people think God is trying to find something to get you and condemn you but that is not the case.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
 
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Cis.jd

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I've met and seen too many christians who have exhibited the worst form of personality both morally and in logic. It's kinda hard to read that people who have such high forms of narcissism are considered "good" while others who don't judge and just go about their business trying the best they can to do good regardless of whatever ignorances or disinterests they have are evil and will go to heaven.

Christians are the ones who are supposed to represent christ to others but many christians give a representation and message that no sane person would ever want to be part of, regardless of it being true or not. SO them rejecting christ can also be the fault of many of Christ's christians who really don't like applying logic to what they read in scripture or take in anything intellectually.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The entire Old Testament is filled with people who do not know Christ but they do know God. One God.
Christ died for the sins of the entire world and that includes the distant and remote. The criteria is pure in heart.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God (Mt. 5:8).

Just leave it to God, he is a good God who loves mankind. It seems like a lot of people think God is trying to find something to get you and condemn you but that is not the case.

Yahuweh's Word is eternally true.

The number of those "pure in heart" , according to His Word, is "few" (way fewer than those who make false claims).

Jesus came to seek and to save those who are still lost. He doesn't change His Word though, nor lower His Standard.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I've always wondered about this myself. I honestly think that God would reveal the truth to everyone so that they have a chance to believe.
Good.
He Says He gives a chance to everyone to believe. He says no one has an excuse for unbelief.
He Says most people have hated the LIGHT (JESUS), because their lives are evil.
i.e. they do not take the chance to believe to be saved.
 
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Blade

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I Like what Jesus said "if you were BLIND you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. We are judged on the LIGHT in which we have. Kind of hard for a RIGHTEOUS JUST JUDGE to judge someone that never heard the truth.. as one said here.. it is written on our hearts. We dont need man to tell us dont do harm dont lie.. so forth so on. He wrote these on our hearts.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Yahuweh's Word is eternally true.

The number of those "pure in heart" , according to His Word, is "few" (way fewer than those who make false claims).

Jesus came to seek and to save those who are still lost. He doesn't change His Word though, nor lower His Standard.
Yes,they are called the remnant.
 
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Not David

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Yahuweh's Word is eternally true.

The number of those "pure in heart" , according to His Word, is "few" (way fewer than those who make false claims).

Jesus came to seek and to save those who are still lost. He doesn't change His Word though, nor lower His Standard.
What's your point?
 
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AppleGold

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One last question remains that I have is that since Jesus forgives all sins, and since only very few Christian domination believe in Purgatory then what is to prevent people from using the classic attitude, "I'll live my life the way I want to live it, not the way God wants me to live it. Then when I'm on my death bed, I'll confess all my sins and then live my life for Jesus." Like literally three days before their death. Yes, the bible tells us to always be prepared, there things that can happen, like being hit by a car, etc. But, someone who actually does pull that off, it is like their is no bad consequence for them. They have the same outcome as someone who lived their life for Jesus for forty years until death, right?
 
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The Righterzpen

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One last question remains that I have is that since Jesus forgives all sins, and since only very few Christian domination believe in Purgatory then what is to prevent people from using the classic attitude, "I'll live my life the way I want to live it, not the way God wants me to live it. Then when I'm on my death bed, I'll confess all my sins and then live my life for Jesus." Like literally three days before their death. Yes, the bible tells us to always be prepared, there things that can happen, like being hit by a car, etc. But, someone who actually does pull that off, it is like their is no bad consequence for them. They have the same outcome as someone who lived their life for Jesus for forty years until death, right?

The problem with the notion of "Oh, I'll just repent before I die." is that it lacks the sincerity of genuine repentance.

If "I'll repent before I die." Why not now?

If one is truly convicted of their sin and the need for repentance and then having a sincere desire to obey God; that conviction becomes the foundation of their life. If neither is there in the present, what makes one think it would be honestly there in the future? And since it's the goodness of God that leads one to repentance in the first place (Romans 2:4) - God does everything in His prefect timing, but He's not a procrastinator. That's not how the Holy Spirit normally operates.

Granted the "death bed conversion" can happen, but it's like the jailhouse conversion. How many prove to be genuine after release?

The other misnomer is that although Jesus paid for all of a believer's sin, He did not atone for unbelievers. They end up in hell to pay for their sin because in a sense; Christ didn't. (And if you understand Romans 3:11 "none seek after God"; they didn't want to be atoned for anyways.)

Atonement is the only predication that prevents someone from being condemned. So the notion that Jesus atoned for every single human being that ever lived and that people are only condemned because of unbelief; runs into a couple of problems.

1. Unbelief is not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (the only unpardonable sin). We know this because everyone is in a state of unbelief at some point or another. So if Jesus paid for all of your sin, that would include the sin of unbelief.

2. If Jesus paid for "Joe's" sin and "Joe" ends up in hell to atone for his own sin; that's two people paying for the sin of one, and that's not justice.

3. God would have no justification to condemn anyone if atonement was universal.

4. Jesus said that all that the father gives to Him will come and He would loose nothing. (John 6:39) So if He atoned for someone He lost; then Jesus is a liar.

5. Jesus states pretty emphatically that there are those who will be condemned and punished for their sin. Thus another way we know atonement isn't universal.

6. The notion of universal atonement makes a portion of Jesus's work ineffectual.

7. Lastly if someone who's intended to be redeemed isn't; than God fails the definition of God.
a. God didn't know they wouldn't come. (He's not omniscient.)
b. God could not prevent their being lost. (He's not omnipotent.)
c. God was unwilling to enact that person's salvation. (He is unloving.)
d. No one is secure. (God is capricious, unfair, unjust and evil.)

Those are but a few issues with what is coined as "Arminian doctrine".
 
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-57

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What's your point?
You said "Just leave it to God, he is a good God who loves mankind. It seems like a lot of people think God is trying to find something to get you and condemn you but that is not the case."

I pointed out God doesn't have to look. People are already condemned.
 
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Francis Drake

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Our God is a powerful God.
Yes He is.
He knows everything in this world.
Yes He does.
He use Pastors, evangelists, missionaries, and other ministries to go to all places in the world to spread the Gospel of Jesus.
But the idea that the arrival of these people will somehow answer the OP is pure mythology.
Missionaries are still finding people groups who have never previously heard the gospel. The ancestors of these people have been dying for thousands of years never having been previously visited by your pastors, evangelists, missionaries.
Are they all in hell now just because the missionaries were tardy in doing their jobs?

When it comes to eternal life, the reach of the Holy Spirit is far greater than having to wait on your fickle human missionaries etc.
 
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Yennora

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This is where I was going with this. Now in Dante's Inferno there is a Purgatory, people who lived good lives but did not know Jesus, a temporary place. Cause many Christians claim that the truth reaches everyone person on Earth, all 7 Billion people while they are still alive. I have a hard time believing that the truth will reach all 7 Billion people on this Earth before they die, now whether or not they accept the truth is a different story.


What about the atheist who doesn’t believe what scripture says because they don’t trust humans? Technically they heard but they are to skeptical of people to accept that it’s 100% true. Do they have a chance?

Romans 2:13-16 is the answer to your questions. :')

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Romans 2:13-16
 
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Being of the elect depends upon God sovereignty and providence.
You do understand that the whole world deserves to go to hell. All fall short.
You do understand God wasn't required to save anyone.
Whatever your "understanding" means to you, God's self declare character clearly guarantees He will provide the ability for everyone to be saved.

Man was created to dwell in a love relationship with God. In order to achieve that love relationship, God gave man freewill.
God knew in advance that man would rebel, and was therefore obliged beforehand to also provide a way to save and deliver man from his rebellion.
The alternative is that God made a mistake.
You do understand the gate is narrow.
You do know God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and God will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. Romans 9
You do understand There is no one righteous, not even one. 11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Romans 3.
Good scriptures, but adds nothing here.
You do understand Jesus is the only way?
Of course Jesus is the only way. But Jesus is the God of the garden of Eden, the God we see throughout the OT. Jesus did not suddenly arrive on earth at Bethlehem.
Jeshua was the God of salvation that all the patriarchs knew. He is the God that Abraham spoke to.
You do understand God has to draw you...not woo you like post 17 claims. John 6:44
Woo is an excellent word for what the Holy Spirit does in drawing man to the Father.
You do understand God has to grant you the ability to come to Jesus? John 6:65
That only happens when the seed of the spirit is implanted, a seed which brings the new birth of regeneration, a regeneration which has been true since Adam in the garden.
You do understand people are dead in their sin and trespasses and God has to regenerate you. Eph 2
Your lecturing is tedious. If you truly understood what you are quoting, you would see much clearer what those words actually meant.
Salvation isn't a scale where all of your good qualities are placed on one side and bad qualities are placed on the other...then God see's which way it tips.
Glad that's cleared up then.

The blood of Jesus, the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, did not just save people in the NT. His blood also saved all the OT saints who sought after the Lord.
 
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