Lethal Autonomous Weapons--ban or balance?

tall73

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For those not familiar with lethal autonomous weapon systems, you can review the following article which gives a summary of ethical concerns, discussions of bans, advantages and disadvantages of the systems, etc.:

Pros and Cons of Autonomous Weapons Systems

Countries are developing weapons with varying degrees of autonomy. The advantages of machines that can work and react faster than a human, and without the limitations of humans are driving the research further.

However, these represent a threat to humans in the future. With atomic weaponry attempts have been made, and still are, to limit the proliferation. But once the cat is out of the bag that has been an only partially successful plan. Atomic war has been avoided among large powers primarily by assurance of mutual destruction.

An example of maintaining assurance of mutual destruction is the Russian response to our missile defense plans. Since Russia did not have the money to invest in costly and uncertain research into missile defense systems they did not try to make a competing plan.

However, our missile defense system still put them at a disadvantage. If we had a missile defense program, and they did not it would open them up to a one sided exchange. This would mean that on a practical level they would not be able to counter any threats from the US, making them vulnerable to intimidation. They had to innovate to maintain mutual assurance of destruction.

Their solution was to make faster ultra-sonic delivery vehicles that could avoid missile defense systems at a relatively lower cost, and to create multi-warhead delivery rockets that would mean that even one device getting through could cause massive destruction. This allowed them to save research costs, but still even the playing field to some extent. And to counter US superiority in conventional weaponry they simply announced they would use small scale tactical nukes against conventional weaponry to resist invasion.

Part of why this strategy worked was that any type of atomic warfare would cause long-lasting harm to the environment, and likely would elicit an escalated response, resulting in even more atomic warfare. The nature of atomic warfare was too dangerous for nations to risk.

We have seen smaller nations wanting to develop atomic bombs or missiles because they realize this can protect them against intimidation by larger powers, maintaining the possibility of mutual destruction.

However, with lethal autonomous weapons (killer robots), the destruction could be limited in scope, and even allow for targeting by facial recognition or other biometrics, and could therefore be deployed in more limited ways. A mechanical mosquito injecting poison could take out targets without causing massive radio-active fallout, etc.

It seems that banning LAW has not worked as the major players are all afraid that others will develop these weapons first, putting them a a disadvantage, similar to atomic weapons.

What strategies would you propose the US follow?
 

iluvatar5150

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You still have humans programming them. So they simply kill within human set parameters.

Yeah, but that's the case with human operators, too - they're also trained by humans and robots can compute a lot more data to better identify targets.
 
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tall73

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Yeah, but that's the case with human operators, too - they're also trained by humans and robots can compute a lot more data to better identify targets.

Would you favor AI's running society as well for similar reasons?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Would you favor AI's running society as well for similar reasons?

For some things, sure.

For example, if I were a New Yorker, I'd much rather have robots running the subway system than people.
 
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Kentonio

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Autonomous weapon systems are inevitable. Human's can't process decision making quickly enough to compete with automated systems (and are worse at it in nearly every situation), so once one country adopts them they'll begin to accumulate a significant advantage (once the technology grows). No major militarized country can risk falling behind.

Morally they could well make war safer for civilians, not more dangerous if implemented correctly. If a machine is programmed to only fire if under direct threat or if a target is confirmed as hostile, it will do exactly that. Not get scared and fire before they're sure, not misunderstand a movement and fire at a kid holding a mobile phone, but actually process inputs to make sure its fire parameters are met.
 
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zephcom

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Autonomous weapon systems are inevitable. Human's can't process decision making quickly enough to compete with automated systems (and are worse at it in nearly every situation), so once one country adopts them they'll begin to accumulate a significant advantage (once the technology grows). No major militarized country can risk falling behind.

Morally they could well make war safer for civilians, not more dangerous if implemented correctly. If a machine is programmed to only fire if under direct threat or if a target is confirmed as hostile, it will do exactly that. Not get scared and fire before they're sure, not misunderstand a movement and fire at a kid holding a mobile phone, but actually process inputs to make sure its fire parameters are met.

Hmm. if they can not fire on a kid holding a cell phone maybe we should replace our police forces with them.....
 
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Kentonio

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Hmm. if they can not fire on a kid holding a cell phone maybe we should replace our police forces with them.....

Works for me. I'd be surprised if police, fire services etc havn't been largely replaced by machines at some point in the next century anyway. Sending human beings into shootouts and burning buildings isn't particularly desirable.
 
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zephcom

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Works for me. I'd be surprised if police, fire services etc havn't been largely replaced by machines at some point in the next century anyway. Sending human beings into shootouts and burning buildings isn't particularly desirable.

This dovetails right into an issue that no one really wants to talk about...robotics and computerization. The path we currently are on leads directly to making all humans redundant.

I have asked over and over again how will we remake society when humans no longer have jobs? It seems no one wants to go there. The potential exists that there is nothing humans can do better than a machine.
 
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Nithavela

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This dovetails right into an issue that no one really wants to talk about...robotics and computerization. The path we currently are on leads directly to making all humans redundant.

I have asked over and over again how will we remake society when humans no longer have jobs? It seems no one wants to go there. The potential exists that there is nothing humans can do better than a machine.
They are better at dying.
 
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Kentonio

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This dovetails right into an issue that no one really wants to talk about...robotics and computerization. The path we currently are on leads directly to making all humans redundant.

I have asked over and over again how will we remake society when humans no longer have jobs? It seems no one wants to go there. The potential exists that there is nothing humans can do better than a machine.

I've actually spent quite a lot of time thinking about that, but its worth pointing out that even after a lot of complex jobs can be automated, there will still be a big gap before you can expect AI to be genuinely creative, if indeed that's even possible. It's also extremely unlikely that people will ever be content to allow a society with no human interaction in spheres like healthcare etc.

As for a totally human free workforce, I think it just requires us to think very differently about what we value as a society. Is work particularly useful to us (aside from making money) or is it often just a substitute for other forms of social interaction and filling your time? If that's so, then forming groups within communities that support interests or hobbies or community improvement projects or whatever, and a big increase in lifelong learning, may be much more rewarding, if you don't have to sit worrying about how you'll pay your bills.
 
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zephcom

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I've actually spent quite a lot of time thinking about that, but its worth pointing out that even after a lot of complex jobs can be automated, there will still be a big gap before you can expect AI to be genuinely creative, if indeed that's even possible. It's also extremely unlikely that people will ever be content to allow a society with no human interaction in spheres like healthcare etc.

As for a totally human free workforce, I think it just requires us to think very differently about what we value as a society. Is work particularly useful to us (aside from making money) or is it often just a substitute for other forms of social interaction and filling your time? If that's so, then forming groups within communities that support interests or hobbies or community improvement projects or whatever, and a big increase in lifelong learning, may be much more rewarding, if you don't have to sit worrying about how you'll pay your bills.

Paying one's bills. Therein lies the problem. The structure of human society for its recorded history is that one 'does something' to 'receive something'. Our current form of society is centered on that. We have massive numbers of people who live homeless lives eating food which is donated to them because our entire society can't seem to figure out how people could live a humane life if they don't have money to pay their bills.

It is my opinion that before we go any further down the path of robotics and computerization we figure out how this new society will work. Otherwise, all of us will be sleeping on the streets and begging for food.

And I doubt those who create the robots will voluntarily share their profits from the robots with mere humans.
 
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Kentonio

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Paying one's bills. Therein lies the problem. The structure of human society for its recorded history is that one 'does something' to 'receive something'. Our current form of society is centered on that. We have massive numbers of people who live homeless lives eating food which is donated to them because our entire society can't seem to figure out how people could live a humane life if they don't have money to pay their bills.

It is my opinion that before we go any further down the path of robotics and computerization we figure out how this new society will work. Otherwise, all of us will be sleeping on the streets and begging for food.

And I doubt those who create the robots will voluntarily share their profits from the robots with mere humans.

Exactly. If done with a huge amount of social restructuring it could lead to a paradise. If done in our usual selfish way, it could lead to a nightmarish dystopia. The lessons from politics point to the latter being far, far more likely.
 
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tall73

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Andrew Yang is the politician most discussing automation and its long-term impact at the moment in the USA. I donated to him just to try to get him on the debate stage (they look at number of unique donors, etc.).
 
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TLK Valentine

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Autonomous weapon systems are inevitable. Human's can't process decision making quickly enough to compete with automated systems (and are worse at it in nearly every situation), so once one country adopts them they'll begin to accumulate a significant advantage (once the technology grows). No major militarized country can risk falling behind.

There's one decision that a human can make that a machine never will -- the inevitable and essential decision in any war:

"Screw this! I'm not fighting anymore!"

Morally they could well make war safer for civilians, not more dangerous if implemented correctly. If a machine is programmed to only fire if under direct threat or if a target is confirmed as hostile, it will do exactly that. Not get scared and fire before they're sure, not misunderstand a movement and fire at a kid holding a mobile phone, but actually process inputs to make sure its fire parameters are met.

Morally, I thing the very notion of a "safe" or easy war should never be pursued. War should always be a dangerous, messy, and bloody business... and if that fact makes our leaders pause before declaring war, I don't see how that's a problem.
 
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