I will only even bother to answer one of these recent cavils, as the rest have already been answered by the very text they are attacking. The only one of these that even deserves an answer it the claim that the words of Irenaeus that the great tribulation is "the last contest of the righteous" are proof that he was saying that the church would still be here during that "last contest of the righteous."
Foes of the pre-trib doctrine always hail this as proof that he was not speaking of a pre-trib rapture. But this presents no problem whatsoever for any pre-tribber with whom I have ever discussed this. That is because standard pre-trib doctrine has always included the concept that, after the rapture, others would again turn to Christ. These have always been referred to by pre0tribbers as either "the righteous" or "tribulation saints." But never as part of "the church."
So this is nothing but a more or less standard statement for a pre-tribber to make, which makes this clause zero problem for anyone who believes in a pre-tribulation rapture.
The
big problem is that your premise and that of others who share your belief is false. There is no division of believers into, “church”, “tribulation saints”, “righteous”, or any other grouping you may seek to introduce to support your falsehood.
Scripture, even as was presented, denies the dichotomy you try to create. As was shown before:
"The Church is referred to as saints:
1Corinthians 1:
2Unto
the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus
, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
2Corinthians 1:
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy
our brother, unto
the church of God which is at Corinth, with
all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Ephesians1:
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the
saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
The saints are in Christ and are the body of Christ:
Ephesians4:
12For the perfecting
of the saints, for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Colossians1:
2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace
be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Your claim that the words are used differently because they refer to different types of believers is clearly proven to be false.
Even when the very writings, you use, deny this dichotomy, you ignore this fact and continue to promote the falsehood.This leads me to believe,you are not just mistaken but you are also not completely candid in your arguments.
Previously you ascribe the word, “saints” to being used for those left after the rapture had taken place. You said:
“We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.” And in these statements, he changed the words “the church,” or “we,” to “
the saints.” ”
So according to the theory, the word, “saints” is a reference to, “tribulation saints” i.e. Those left after the pre-trib. rapture.
Now when the favourite passage of pre-tribbers in Pseudo-Ephraem is presented we see something which should relieve you of your false theory. It says:
“
For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
The word church is not used to describe the believers here,the word used is,
“SAINTS”, and hence there is no change as you falsely claim from, “the church,” or “we,” to “
the saints”, because of the pre-trib. rapture taking place. The words are used interchangeably for all believers at all times in the new covenant.
Your treatment of this passage and your response to the illuminating of this inconsistency is cause for concern and leads one to wonder about if you are completely candid in discussing the scriptures and your views.
Your treatment of the cavil you choose to respond to is also cause for concern as it reveals a lack of basic comprehension skills. You wrote:
“The only one of these that even deserves an answer it the claim that the words of Irenaeus that the great tribulation is "the last contest of the righteous" are proof that he was saying that the church would still be here during that "last contest of the righteous."”
Your contention is that,the word righteous refers to those left after the pre-trib. rapture and who come to faith at that time. Hence you wrote:
“Foes of the pre-trib doctrine always hail this as proof that he was not speaking of a pre-trib rapture. But this presents no problem whatsoever for any pre-tribber with whom I have ever discussed this. That is because
standard pre-trib doctrine has always included the concept that, after the rapture, others would again turn to Christ.”
The simple reading and understanding denies your claim. Read it again:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’
For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)
The church is caught up from what will befall the nations which did not return thanks to their Maker, nor beheld the light of truth, etc. As was written previously, the words before, “Those nations”, could shed more light on what this is. The explanation of this however, also would most likely be as was explained in the examination of the Pseudo-Ephraem passage embraced by pre-tribbers. As was written then:
“It is after the advent of the wicked one that the coming Lord resurrects the saints and not before in a rapture prior to the son of perdition/Antichrist.It will be confusion directed at the enemies of Christ which Christians shall escape from as is written:
2Thessalonians 1:
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in
the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of
the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire
taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
While the saints do suffer persecutions and tribulations in the world prior to the coming of the Lord they will escape the confusion and tribulation which results from the Lord carrying out judgement and taking vengeance on those who knew Him not when He comes. This is what Ephraim was most likely referring to in light of the context above.”
It is this event that the church will be suddenly caught up from. However the church i.e. the righteous will suffer persecution and tribulation,before this happens, which will be, “
the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption”.
The fact is,the righteous is a reference to the church and it is the tribulation that is to come which will be the last contest of the church/righteous.Hence this denies a primary teaching of the pre-trib. rapture and hence this is a huge problem for the doctrine.