Who is a Christian?

hu1tz · May 18, 2019

bling said:
Prior to Christ's coming the Jews would not be known by their Love for the gentiles or love for heretics.

so then only God could show saul that he was doing the wrong thing, and thats what happened.

bling said:
Again, there is no list of rules in the New Testament like you had in the Old Testament. Not all the ten commands are not listed in the New Testament. You cannot take commands given by Apostles to a particular group of people at a particular time and say: "You must follow this to the letter". Context has to always be taken into consideration.

i thought there were more rules in the new testament than the old...

bling · May 18, 2019

hu1tz said:
so then only God could show saul that he was doing the wrong thing, and thats what happened.

i thought there were more rules in the new testament than the old...

There are more ways to sin with the New Testament, but it is not because of "more rules", but the rules are much broader.

Tone · May 18, 2019

Joyousperson said:
In fact, ALL Christians should be made aware of the existence of the implied covenant since it is 100%++ in favor for a Christian and Christianity.

It is so unfortunate you want to deny this fact and positive element for yourself.

Joyousperson said:
For example complying with the items of the Ten Commandment is very obvious.

Matthew 13
"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

1 Corinthians 11:18-19
"18First of all, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved."

And so you have discovered a great difference among "christians", and really, between all people on earth, for some like the Psalmists, love Torah...and others hate the same...

Joyousperson · May 18, 2019

bling said:
Again, there is no list of rules in the New Testament like you had in the Old Testament. Not all the ten commands are not listed in the New Testament. You cannot take commands given by Apostles to a particular group of people at a particular time and say: "You must follow this to the letter". Context has to always be taken into consideration.

I am very familiar with the divine principles within Christianity [as with other religions] but not the details on a verse to verse basis.

My main point is, to be a Christian would have established a relationship with God via a covenant to comply with the stipulated covenanted terms. This is undeniable.

If ALL the Ten Commandments of the OT is not applicable, then what is still applicable and effective in the NT need to be complied with in accordance to the covenanted terms.

Joyousperson · May 18, 2019

Tone said:
Matthew 13
"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

1 Corinthians 11:18-19
"18First of all, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19And indeed, there must be differences among you to show which of you are approved."

And so you have discovered a great difference among "christians", and really, between all people on earth, for some like the Psalmists, love Torah...and others hate the same...

Note sure of your point.

My main point is, to be a Christian would have established a relationship with God via a covenant to comply with the stipulated covenanted terms. This is undeniable.

The imperative covenanted terms are in the gospels not the whole of the NT or Torah. I mentioned the covenant is supported by the epistles, acts and relevant verses from the OT [most are abrogated].

Tone · May 18, 2019

Joyousperson said:
The imperative covenanted terms are in the gospels not the whole of the NT or Torah. I mentioned the covenant is supported by the epistles, acts and relevant verses from the OT [most are abrogated].

Besides John 3:16, what do you understand the gospel to be?

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

Tone said:
Besides John 3:16, what do you understand the gospel to be?

As I had stated, I am aware of the main gist of Christianity but I am not aware of all the verses in detail in the gospels, epistles, acts and the OT.
What I am relying on is the main and overriding principles of Christianity.

Tone · May 19, 2019

Joyousperson said:
As I had stated, I am aware of the main gist of Christianity but I am not aware of all the verses in detail in the gospels, epistles, acts and the OT.
What I am relying on is the main and overriding principles of Christianity.

Okay, that is fair. The point I was trying to make in my post #163 is that much of the inconsistency that you see in "Christian" behavior has to do with how Torah is viewed. I think that if you did some research you would see a direct relationship between disregard for Torah and increased violence. This also holds true with secular violence and other religious (e.g.Islam) violence. The more disregard for Torah, the more chaos and disorder will ensue.

*So, according to your theory, Islam should have the utmost disregard for Torah.

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

Tone said:
Okay, that is fair. The point I was trying to make in my post #163 is that much of the inconsistency that you see in "Christian" behavior has to do with how Torah is viewed. I think that if you did some research you would see a direct relationship between disregard for Torah and increased violence. This also holds true with secular violence and other religious (e.g.Islam) violence. The more disregard for Torah, the more chaos and disorder will ensue.

*So, according to your theory, Islam should have the utmost disregard for Torah.

The Torah as available in the present condition is not a part of the covenanted terms within the Quran for a Muslims to comply with.

In fact, the Quran condemned the present Torah as a corrupted book by the Jews who made changes to the actual Torah sent by Allah to Moses. This point within the Quran is very contentious.

But the main point is a Muslim is only obligated the comply with the covenanted terms in the Quran [supported by the Ahadiths] and no where else.
So there is no question of 'utmost disregard for the Torah' for a Muslim.

Tone · May 19, 2019

Joyousperson said:
In fact, the Quran condemned the present Torah as a corrupted book by the Jews who made changes to the actual Torah sent by Allah to Moses. This point within the Quran is very contentious.

Oh wow, I didn't even know that, but do you see how that is evidence to what I said?

"...if you did some research you would see a direct relationship between disregard for Torah and increased violence. This also holds true with secular violence and other religious (e.g.Islam) violence. The more disregard for Torah, the more chaos and disorder will ensue."

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

Tone said:
Oh wow, I didn't even know that, but do you see how that is evidence to what I said?

"...if you did some research you would see a direct relationship between disregard for Torah and increased violence. This also holds true with secular violence and other religious (e.g.Islam) violence. The more disregard for Torah, the more chaos and disorder will ensue."

I am not very sure of your point.

I don't see the point with "the more disregard for Torah, the more chaos and disorder will ensure."
If the Torah is disregarded [?] but those who disregard it were to adopt Buddhism, Jainism, Christianity, and other peaceful religions, then there would not be more chaos and disorder.

It may be true in relation to those communities who were handed down the Torah and if they ignore the Ten Commandments and other good commandments, perhaps more chaos and disorder would ensure only with that community.

Why Muhammad and the Quran cursed the present Torah?
Muhammad believed the original Torah delivered to Moses contains specific verses that indicated he [as named] was to be the final prophet.
However Muhammad believed in his mind, the Jews deleted and modified [with their hands] those verses in the "original" Torah and presented an edited version thus the corrupted Torah they have on hand at present.

2:79. Therefore woe be unto those [infidel -Jews] who write the Scripture [book of the law] with their hands [not divine from God] and then say, "This is from Allah," that they [Jews] may purchase [liyashtarū] a small gain [ThMN: thamanan: price] therewith. Woe unto them [Jews] for that their hands have written, and woe unto them [Jews] for that [sinful evil gain] they earn thereby.

2:159. Those [Jews -infidels] who hide [KTM: yaktumūna] the proofs and the guidance which We [Allah] revealed, after We had made it clear in the Scripture: such [infidels] are accursed of Allah and accursed of those [angels, men] who have the power to curse.

There are many verses like the above.

This is the reason why there is so much anti-semitism in the Quran [more than main kempf] and why the Jews are hated by Muslims till the present day.

In the Quran, there are verses where the people of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians were favored positively. That was only during Muhammad's early days when he was trying to "sell" and convince them of his new religions. After he was rejected by the pagans, Christians and Jews, all the earlier favorable verses were abrogated with verses of hatred and condemnations of the pagans, Christians and Jews.

bling · May 20, 2019

Joyousperson said:
I am very familiar with the divine principles within Christianity [as with other religions] but not the details on a verse to verse basis.

My main point is, to be a Christian would have established a relationship with God via a covenant to comply with the stipulated covenanted terms. This is undeniable.

If ALL the Ten Commandments of the OT is not applicable, then what is still applicable and effective in the NT need to be complied with in accordance to the covenanted terms.

What happens to the Christian who does not “comply”? Does that “Christian” cease to be a Christian at the moment of not complying to one command?

The Bible repeatedly emphasizes the fact: “Man cannot judge” and “God looks at the heart of the person to make His judgement”, so your trying to come up with some “outward” rules the Christian must follow to be a Christian does not take into consideration the heart of the person, which is the determining factor.

Joyousperson · May 20, 2019

bling said:
What happens to the Christian who does not “comply”? Does that “Christian” cease to be a Christian at the moment of not complying to one command?

The Bible repeatedly emphasizes the fact: “Man cannot judge” and “God looks at the heart of the person to make His judgement”, so your trying to come up with some “outward” rules the Christian must follow to be a Christian does not take into consideration the heart of the person, which is the determining factor.

Nope, it is not any outward rule, not with God as the other party of the contract / covenant.

When a person believed in Jesus Christ sincerely and do what is necessary, God being all-knowing [omniscience] would know of the sincerely of his acceptance of God's offer and the implied or explicit would have been approved by God based on his omniscient.

A person can be baptized and proclaimed whatever or pretend to comply, but there would not be an implied genuine covenant with God, since God is all knowing. So the consideration of the 'heart of the person' is critical.

Re non-compliance, tote examples in secular contracts.

In a marriage contract, is the marriage nullified if one of the spouse do not comply or meet expectations. Even if a spouse commit adultery, the partners are still in marriage until the non-compliance is serious enough for the partners to call it off or the marriage is nullified by a court.

If you enter into a secular contract with any party, say to deliver 1000 widgets and 10% of the widgets are defective. In this case the contract need not be terminated if you agree with the other party to pay for the 900 widgets and sent back the 10%.

The above examples of non-compliance also apply to a covenant [divine contract] with God.
God have given humans free will and God being all knowing know fallible humans will naturally sin in various degrees of severity. Where the sin is considered minor in God's judgment, God being merciful and compassionate would not have nullify the contract on its part. Where the Christian has sin, repent and ask for forgiveness, it is likely God will forgive and the person would have remained a Christian.

Note even the worst sin [Paul and Moses] are forgiven. But I believe this is applicable in a one off where the sinner repented and never repeat them.

I am not sure it is mentioned in the NT or not, but personally and using my own moral judgment, I don't think God will forgive a person who has committed a "worst sin" and kept repeating such worst sin after each repentance. As some point such a repeated offender would not be qualified to be a Christian-proper in the all knowing God's eyes.

Thus a Christian do not cease immediately to be a Christian based on non-compliance of certain terms of the covenant.
Whence the covenant with God is nullified because of non-compliance will depend on God's judgment [i guessed it has to be based on a repetitive very serious worst sin].

Note the covenant is nullified if the believer decide to convert out of Christianity voluntarily, but that is not a non-compliance of the covenanted terms.

bling · May 21, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Nope, it is not any outward rule, not with God as the other party of the contract / covenant.

When a person believed in Jesus Christ sincerely and do what is necessary, God being all-knowing [omniscience] would know of the sincerely of his acceptance of God's offer and the implied or explicit would have been approved by God based on his omniscient.

A person can be baptized and proclaimed whatever or pretend to comply, but there would not be an implied genuine covenant with God, since God is all knowing. So the consideration of the 'heart of the person' is critical.

Re non-compliance, tote examples in secular contracts.

In a marriage contract, is the marriage nullified if one of the spouse do not comply or meet expectations. Even if a spouse commit adultery, the partners are still in marriage until the non-compliance is serious enough for the partners to call it off or the marriage is nullified by a court.

If you enter into a secular contract with any party, say to deliver 1000 widgets and 10% of the widgets are defective. In this case the contract need not be terminated if you agree with the other party to pay for the 900 widgets and sent back the 10%.

The above examples of non-compliance also apply to a covenant [divine contract] with God.
God have given humans free will and God being all knowing know fallible humans will naturally sin in various degrees of severity. Where the sin is considered minor in God's judgment, God being merciful and compassionate would not have nullify the contract on its part. Where the Christian has sin, repent and ask for forgiveness, it is likely God will forgive and the person would have remained a Christian.

Note even the worst sin [Paul and Moses] are forgiven. But I believe this is applicable in a one off where the sinner repented and never repeat them.

I am not sure it is mentioned in the NT or not, but personally and using my own moral judgment, I don't think God will forgive a person who has committed a "worst sin" and kept repeating such worst sin after each repentance. As some point such a repeated offender would not be qualified to be a Christian-proper in the all knowing God's eyes.

Thus a Christian do not cease immediately to be a Christian based on non-compliance of certain terms of the covenant.
Whence the covenant with God is nullified because of non-compliance will depend on God's judgment [i guessed it has to be based on a repetitive very serious worst sin].

Note the covenant is nullified if the believer decide to convert out of Christianity voluntarily, but that is not a non-compliance of the covenanted terms.

You are showing a lot of subjectivity to this line you are trying to draw between Christians and non-Christians.

You seem to be coming down to: “It is up to God”?

You have tried to show it is like a marriage or a business agreement, but in reality it is like a family (parent/child).

Tone · May 21, 2019

Joyousperson said:
I am not very sure of your point.

I don't see the point with "the more disregard for Torah, the more chaos and disorder will ensure."
If the Torah is disregarded [?] but those who disregard it were to adopt Buddhism, Jainism, Christianity, and other peaceful religions, then there would not be more chaos and disorder.

It may be true in relation to those communities who were handed down the Torah and if they ignore the Ten Commandments and other good commandments, perhaps more chaos and disorder would ensure only with that community.

Why Muhammad and the Quran cursed the present Torah?
Muhammad believed the original Torah delivered to Moses contains specific verses that indicated he [as named] was to be the final prophet.
However Muhammad believed in his mind, the Jews deleted and modified [with their hands] those verses in the "original" Torah and presented an edited version thus the corrupted Torah they have on hand at present.

2:79. Therefore woe be unto those [infidel -Jews] who write the Scripture [book of the law] with their hands [not divine from God] and then say, "This is from Allah," that they [Jews] may purchase [liyashtarū] a small gain [ThMN: thamanan: price] therewith. Woe unto them [Jews] for that their hands have written, and woe unto them [Jews] for that [sinful evil gain] they earn thereby.

2:159. Those [Jews -infidels] who hide [KTM: yaktumūna] the proofs and the guidance which We [Allah] revealed, after We had made it clear in the Scripture: such [infidels] are accursed of Allah and accursed of those [angels, men] who have the power to curse.

There are many verses like the above.

This is the reason why there is so much anti-semitism in the Quran [more than main kempf] and why the Jews are hated by Muslims till the present day.

In the Quran, there are verses where the people of the Book, i.e. Jews, Christians were favored positively. That was only during Muhammad's early days when he was trying to "sell" and convince them of his new religions. After he was rejected by the pagans, Christians and Jews, all the earlier favorable verses were abrogated with verses of hatred and condemnations of the pagans, Christians and Jews.

So, as I alluded to, it is all based on how Torah is viewed. If one doesn't believe that Torah wasn't handed down from the Creator...then it is not the God of Israel that is being dealt with, but rather, it is some false image such as Allah. There are even Christians that have no regard for Torah...it is these, that I propose are the very same that have committed the violence and atrocities that some bring up to discredit the Faith, e.g., the Crusades, Inquisitions, Colonialism, Thirty Years War, etc...

Joyousperson · May 21, 2019

bling said:
You are showing a lot of subjectivity to this line you are trying to draw between Christians and non-Christians.

You seem to be coming down to: “It is up to God”?

You have tried to show it is like a marriage or a business agreement, but in reality it is like a family (parent/child).

What I am trying to show is the principles of agreement are universal regardless of whether it is secular or divine.
Note in the perspective of an agreement with God, it is called a covenant, never a contract. I have to use to analogy of a contract to explain the agreement and relationship with God within a covenant.

Note the negative impact of a God-Believer relationship as analogical to a Parent/Child relationship.
Where "Christians" are seen and proven to have committed the most terrible evil and violent acts, then the parent, thus God will be blamed by non-Christians. In this case, there is no defense for the good Christians to counter the blame on God for teaching Christians to commit evil and violent acts.

However the concept of the covenant as imperative and implied in defining who is a Christian would definitely be a fool proof counter that Christianity per se is not violent and evil. The covenanted terms which a true Christian is obligated contain an overriding pacifist maxim, of love all even enemies.
Those 'Christians' who committed terrible evil and violent acts are acting on their own free will as fallible human beings and not as condoned by Christianity per se.

Joyousperson · May 21, 2019

Tone said:
So, as I alluded to, it is all based on how Torah is viewed. If one doesn't believe that Torah wasn't handed down from the Creator...then it is not the God of Israel that is being dealt with, but rather, it is some false image such as Allah. There are even Christians that have no regard for Torah...it is these, that I propose are the very same that have committed the violence and atrocities that some bring up to discredit the Faith, e.g., the Crusades, Inquisitions, Colonialism, Thirty Years War, etc...

I can agree with that.

I believe the God of the Torah and the God of Jesus are the same God. As such Christians should not reject the Torah completely but should take note of those verses relevant to the specific times should be abrogated. Many of the relevant moral doctrines and wisdom which are universal from the Torah should be retained.

bling · May 22, 2019

Joyousperson said:
What I am trying to show is the principles of agreement are universal regardless of whether it is secular or divine.
Note in the perspective of an agreement with God, it is called a covenant, never a contract. I have to use to analogy of a contract to explain the agreement and relationship with God within a covenant.

Note the negative impact of a God-Believer relationship as analogical to a Parent/Child relationship.
Where "Christians" are seen and proven to have committed the most terrible evil and violent acts, then the parent, thus God will be blamed by non-Christians. In this case, there is no defense for the good Christians to counter the blame on God for teaching Christians to commit evil and violent acts.

However the concept of the covenant as imperative and implied in defining who is a Christian would definitely be a fool proof counter that Christianity per se is not violent and evil. The covenanted terms which a true Christian is obligated contain an overriding pacifist maxim, of love all even enemies.
Those 'Christians' who committed terrible evil and violent acts are acting on their own free will as fallible human beings and not as condoned by Christianity per se.

Those 'Christians' who committed terrible evil and violent acts are acting on their own free will as fallible human beings and not as condoned by Christianity per se.

The problem is with the definition of “Christian”.

Christians are children of God.

They are not Christian if they “committed terrible evil and violent acts are acting on their own free will”, I do not have to defend them.

Joyousperson · May 22, 2019

bling said:
Those 'Christians' who committed terrible evil and violent acts are acting on their own free will as fallible human beings and not as condoned by Christianity per se.

The problem is with the definition of “Christian”.

Christians are children of God.

They are not Christian if they “committed terrible evil and violent acts are acting on their own free will”, I do not have to defend them.

By definition,
a Christian is a person who had entered a relationship with God via Jesus Christian by establishing an agreement, i.e. a covenant in accepting the offer of God re John 3:16 with the obligation of complying with the covenanted terms.

Christians may be called children of God, but what is critical is there must be an established covenant [a divinely binding agreement to gain salvation with obligation to obey God's words].

You as a fallible human cannot judge or think how God [all powerful, all-knowing, all-merciful] will judge a covenanted Christian who had subsequently committed terrible evil and violent acts but repented sincerely.

If a covenanted Christian has committed a serious or the worst sin, it may be one off due to ignorance and various reasons, but then repent sincerely [God is omniscient, thus will know whether the person is really sincere or not] then it is likely God being all-merciful could forgive the person.

Who is a Christian?

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