Islam Do Not Bash Muslims

dzheremi said:

This is as incorrect
↑
[presumption all religions are peaceful]
as this is correct

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Note you can presume anything but the point is the reality is entire different.
It is objective proven, the ideology of Islam contain loads of evil and violent elements which inspire SOME Muslims [appx 20%, i.e. pool of 300 million] to commit terrible evil and violent acts.

Ignatius the Kiwi said: ↑
Personally I've never denigrated individual Muslims but I will make it known how odious i find their faith.

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Agree.
It is an empirical fact, the ideology of Islam contain loads of evil and violent elements which inspire SOME Muslims [appx 20%, i.e. pool of 300 million] to commit terrible evil and violent acts.

JosephZ said:

I also said:

I have already done this, you obviously haven't.


What you listed were events that were occurring across the globe and by regimes of all ideologies during those 1,400 years. It was the norm and not unique to Islamic imperialists. What you provided doesn't prove anything. Also, most of the examples in the list were imperialist armies fighting against opposing forces. That's not considered terrorism. Native forces were also fighting against Christian invaders and colonizers in other parts of the world as well.

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Your thinking is very contorted.
The point is imperialism and domination of other culture is part and parcel of the ideology of Islam supported by various verses.

Note the invasion of India and many other countries were not fighting against to counter opposing forces.

You keep throwing this 80 million number around to support your argument as if it's gospel, yet the source it comes from doesn't even contribute those deaths as coming directly at the hands of the Islamic colonizers. As for the list of massacres you provided, first off the numbers of people killed don't add up to anywhere close to 80 million, and many of the deaths counted were Muslims killed by opposing forces and deaths from famine and disease. Do you even read your own sources?

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I have already stated and explained many times, it is not an absolute truth but it is the best estimates based on evidence.
I have also stated many times, even if I reduce the 80 million to 1 million, the quantum is still a very serious total in reflecting the evil and violent nature inherent within the ideology of Islam, which must be addressed as a potential threat to the well being of humanity at present in the future.

Here's the most concise link.

• It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.
• It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.
• It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.
• It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.
• It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.
• It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.
• It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God

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I have a more thorough look, and noted those are merely statements made but there are no specific references to the Quran or Ahadiths.

You claim that "there are 3400++ verses in the Quran that are directed antagonistically with hate and extreme hatred towards non-Muslim. Coupled with extreme verses that condone killing of non-Muslims merely because they are disbelievers."

That isn't even a remote possibility. The word kafir (unbeliever) or any words associated with it only occur in the Qur'an around 420 times.

View attachment 256945

Not all of those verses are condemning to unbelievers as many only mentions them. In each and every verse where the killing of non believers is mentioned, there are strict conditions prescribed for doing so, and not a single one that calls for the killing of unbelievers simply for being unbelievers.

You mentioned that in Bill Warner's research supports your claim that there are 3,400 verses in the Qur'an that are evil and violent that are directed antagonistically with hate and extreme hatred towards non-Muslims. Not only is his research laughable, but it in no way supports your claim. Let's look at how Mr. Warner came to the conclusion that 64% of the Qur'an contains violent references to unbelievers.

Below is from the link you provided:

Kafir in Koran Total words in Koran 152,006
Total about Kafirs: 97,583
Percentage: 64.0%

Kafir, Mecca = 66,285
Koran Mecca = 97,184 68.2%
Kafir, Medina = 31,287
Koran Medina = 54,822 57.0%

So there are three major idea/concept units used in this study: the verse, the story and the Koranic Argument. If the story is about how Allah destroyed the city because the city would not accept the prophet of Allah, then for measurement purposes, the entire story (idea unit) is counted as being about the kafir.

Below are two examples from Bill Warner's research where the word kafir (Unbeliever) is used and the surrounding content that he counts towards reaching his conclusion that 64% of the Qur'an contains violent references to unbelievers:

27:59 Say: Praise be to Allah and peace be on His servants whom He has chosen for His
message. Who is better, Allah or the false gods they associate with Him? Is He not the best,
Who created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends rain down from heaven for you,
which We then cause to grow luxurious gardens? You do not have the power to cause trees
to grow. How could there be another god besides Allah? Still, they try to say that there are
equals to Him! Is He not the best Who set the earth firmly in place and placed rivers and
immovable mountains there and placed a barrier between the two seas [fresh water and salt
water]? How could there be another god besides Allah? Still, they try to say that there are
equals to Him! Is He not the best Who answers the cries of distressed souls when they call to
Him and relieves their suffering and makes you the inheritors of the earth? How could there
be another god besides Allah? How few keep this in mind! Is He not the best Who guides
you through the darkness of the land and the sea and sends the winds as heralds of His
mercy? How could there be another god besides Allah? Allah is far above what they
associate with Him.
27:64 Is He not the best Who created life and then repeats it, and Who provides for you from
the heavens and the earth? How could there be another god besides Allah? Say: If you are
telling the truth, then bring your proof. Say: No one in heaven or earth, no one except Allah,
knows the unseen. They do not know when they will be raised from the dead. They know
even less about the hereafter. No, they have great doubts about it. No, they are blind to it.
27:67 The unbelievers say, “What? Will we really be raised from the dead when we have
become dust like our fathers? It is true that we were promised this, ourselves and our
fathers, too. This is nothing but ancient fables.”
27:69 Say: Travel through the land and see what becomes of the wicked. Do not grieve over
them and do not be distressed because of their plots against you. They say, “If you are
telling the truth, when will this promise come to pass?”
27:72 Say: Perhaps some of what you seek to hurry towards is near. Your Lord is filled with
goodness toward men, but most are not thankful. Your Lord knows full well what is hidden
in their hearts, as well as everything they reveal. There is nothing hidden in the heavens or
earth that is not recorded in a clear book.
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54:9 Before them, Noah’s people rejected the truth. They rejected Our servant and called
him insane and drove him away. So he cried out to his Lord, “I am defeated. Help me!”
54:11 We opened heaven’s gates and water gushed out, and We caused springs to erupt all
over the earth and their waters [waters of heaven and springs of earth] met by preordained
plan. We carried Noah away on a boat made with planks and nails. It floated away under
Our watchful eye. A reward for someone who was rejected—We left it [the ark] as a sign,
but will anyone pay attention? My vengeance and warning was terrible!
54:17 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:18 The people of Ad [an ancient people of southern Arabia] rejected the truth, but My
vengeance and warning was terrible because We sent a roaring wind against them on a day
of constant disaster sweeping men away like the stumps of uprooted palms. My vengeance
and warning was terrible!
54:22 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:23 The people of Thamud [Thamud was a trade town in ruins north of Mecca] rejected
the warning, and they said, “Should we follow one man just like ourselves? That would be
wrong and insane. Is he the only one of us to be trusted with such a warning? No! He is an
arrogant liar.” Tomorrow they will learn who the foolish liar is.
54:27 We will send them a she-camel as a test. Watch them and be patient. Tell them that
their water must be divided between themselves and the she-camel, and they must take
equal, alternating turns. Instead, they called their companion, who killed her. My
vengeance and warning was terrible! We sent a single blast against them and they became
like dried sticks.
54:32 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:33 Lot’s people rejected his warning, but We sent a shower of stones against them,
except for Lot and his family, whom We saved at dawn as a favor. This is how We reward
those who give thanks. He certainly warned them of Our punishment, but they doubted the
warning. They even tried to get him to turn out his guests, but We blinded their eyes and
said, “Taste My vengeance and My warning!” In the morning a relentless punishment struck
them.
54:40 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:41 Warnings also came to the people of Pharaoh. They rejected all of Our signs, but We
grasped them with the grasp of the mighty and the powerful.
54:43 Are your unbelievers better men than these? Is there an exception for you [the
Meccans] in the scriptures? Or do they say, “We can defend ourselves if we stand together?”
They will be routed and will turn their backs and run. No! The Hour of Judgment is their
promised time, and that hour will be terrible and bitter.
54:47 Surely, the wicked are wrong and crazy. They will be dragged on their faces into the
fire that day. “Feel the fury of Hell.” We have created everything according to a preordained
plan. Our command is a single word, as quick as the wink of an eye. We have destroyed men
like you [the Meccans] in the past, but is any one warned?
54:52 Everything they do is written down in the books [records kept by recording angels]—
every act, both small and great, is recorded. Surely, the righteous will live among the
Gardens with rivers, in the seat of honor, in the presence of a mighty king.

In just those two examples alone, Mr. Warner is counting 19 verses and 1,064 words as containing evidence of violent references to unbelievers or what he calls “Koranic persuasion.”

This is by far one of, if not the, most ridiculous attempts to shine a bad light on a religion that I have ever come across. As I said, it's laughable and should not be taken as serious research by anyone.

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Note Warners claims is, there are 64% of the words within the verses that are related to the disbelievers, the infidels, the kafir, kuffar. thus generally the non-Muslims, i.e. the 'them' as in us versus them. So he is correct per his own thesis.

Yes, the specific term "kafir" is definitely used less than 3400++ times in the Quran.
I have also mentioned a few times, I have to scrutinize every verses and analyzed all the pronouns, e.g. you, they, them, others, and other relevant terms which are specifically related to the non-Muslims and disbelievers [the infidels, the kafir, kuffar, apes, swines, etc.].
This analysis is very tedious and time consuming as I had to study each individual verse out of 6236 verses very carefully to note the context.

That being said, in the other thread I asked that you upload some of your research so I can see what led you to the conclusion that 3,400 verses in the Qur'an are evil, violent, and are directed antagonistically with hate and extreme hatred towards non-Muslims. These are apparently the same verses you feel command that Muslims commit acts of aggression and violence against non-Muslims or that lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims.

I will be looking forward to seeing your research.

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I have already provided you a clue of 15 verses from Chapter 1 and 2.
You cannot deny these few verses are indication of hatred by Allah against disbelievers thus influencing the believers to also hate them. Don't try again to deflect these with the Bible!

I have suggested you read [with suspended judgment] the first 10 chapters and note the similar vein of hatred therein.

If you read Bill Warners' list as convenience, 90% of the verses he listed are likely to be relevant to my thesis re the 3400++ verses.

I have repeated many times [something is very wrong with you for ignoring my many repetitions], I am not relying on Bill Warner and other critiques of Islam as my 'gospel' truths. I have done my own research to form my own conclusion where 90% of them are in line with most critiques of Islam.

If 99.99% of Muslims in the world aren't participating in violent jihad against non-Muslims, then it's safe to say that Islam does teach that Muslims will be rewarded for doing so or that their salvation is guaranteed for doing so. This is called being logical. I have also studied Islam for many years and have had conversations with countless Muslims about religion and have also concluded that there is no such teaching in Islam.

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I have already explained many times, in this case you are NOT thinking critically with normal logic but has committed the fallacy of argumentum ad populum. Do you realize insist and persisting on the use of argumentum ad populum would imply one is stupid. Don't do this for your own sake to respect the principles of logic.

Have you ever listened to an Islamic sermon? If not, you will probably be surprised at what is taught to Muslims about loving others.

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There will be millions and billions of sermon. But I am certain if the sermon contain the true teachings of Islam, they will certainly be imbued with elements that are evil and violent.

I'm not so sure you understand Pareto's principle. Understanding the Pareto Principle (The 80/20 Rule) – BetterExplained

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How come you do not understand a critical small % can create a large % of the effects, in this case the evil and violent acts committed by Muslims.

In one perspective the 80% of moderate Muslims could likely to have adopted only 20% of that are not violent in nature but overlooked the 80% of verses that contain a certain % of evil and violent elements, e.g. the 3400++ verses I mentioned as evil laden.

So you many have heard of Pareto's 80/20, but you are enable to apply it is practice in this case.

JosephZ said:

So you reject the teachings of Muslim scholars and Christian professors with Doctorates in Religious Studies yet accept the teachings of Bill Warner who has absolutely no background in religious or Islamic studies and says Islam has no place in the US and Muslims shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to the US?

How can you possibly believe that someone like Bill Warner would teach the truth about Islam or that he would be objective in his presentation of Islam?

If you only learn from people who support and share your personal biases, then you really aren't learning anything at all.

I hope you will reconsider taking the course I suggested. It will challenge everything you think you know about Islam and what Muslims believe.

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I suggest you listen to the above video carefully from Christian Prince [CP] who is a Coptic Christian of Arabic [Egyptian maybe?] descent and he is officially an expert in Islam with a degree that qualify him to be a Sharia lawyer.

The pertinent point here is to show you what is meant by a very objective approach, i.e. with reference to the original sources of Islam down to the verses in original Arabic.

In this video CP convinced an educated Arabic Muslim with objective evidences only from authentic Muslim sources of the following;

During the discussion the educated Muslim was condemning the preachers who had lied to him and was trembling [hand shaking] and crying* when exposed to the evil and violent nature of Islam which he had believed all his life was peaceful.


The Muslim agreed based on CP evidence shown and arguments that confirmed Islam is a cult and he was willing to leave Islam thereupon further verifications.

The point is CP views are in line with mine and the majority of the critiques of Islam. Would you condemn him then?

When such a video is heard by Muslims all over the world, Muslims will have to think twice in regard to the authenticity of their religion.

CP had released hundreds of video highlighting various errors, evil and violent elements from the Quran and Ahadith.

In addition CPs had converted hundreds or perhaps 1000s of Muslims to Christianity [especially from Indonesia] via those who directly debated or have heard his debates. His approach via videos has the potential to convert more Muslims [lied to] to Christianity.

The critical point here is CP is relying only on verses from the Quran and Ahadiths to argue his case, i.e. not his personal subjective views.

How can you be effective in spreading Christianity when you are relying on lies and half-truths to insist Islam is peaceful. If you insist Islam is peaceful why should Muslims leave Islam?

You should actually follow what CP is doing to spread Christianity more effectively, i.e. by relying on authentic sources from the Quran and Ahadiths via one's own research instead of relying on third party sources [group of clerics issuing fatwa re ISIS?] who are biased as CP had demonstrated in the above video.

You will notice when CP speaks he always has a quote and reference in front of him and shown to the general audience. In the above video the educated Muslim did not trust CP so he checked the sources from his own computer. In addition, he knows how to read Arabic and noted the bias translations made by translators.

When Muslims are cornered [checkmated] with authentic evidence on the truths of Islam's inherent evil and violent, then only will they consider an alternative religion which in most case likely to be the better Abrahamic religion, i.e. Christianity.

JosephZ said:

Once again, Islamic imperialists colonizing India were no different than any other imperialist regime during the same time period. Christian imperialists used the Bible to justify their conquests as well. Do some research on "The Doctrine of Discovery" and "Manifest Destiny." The Bible was used to justify the conquering of non-Christian lands and Christianizing the native populations.

This is one of the primary verses used in support of Christian Imperialism:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)

Notice its similarity to the statement below:

“free and ample faculty…to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens [Muslims] and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit. (Romanus Pontifex, 1455)

This was also sited in the US Supreme Court:

We maintain that the principle declared in the fifteenth century as the law of Christendom, that discovery gave title to assume sovereignty [a right of domination] over and to govern the unconverted [infidel] natives of Africa, Asia, and North and South America, has been recognized as a part of the national law [law of nations], for nearly four centuries, and it is now so recognized by every Christian power in its political department and its judicial….Our claim is based on the right to coerce obedience. (State v. Foreman, Supreme Court of Tennessee, 1835)

The above doctrine lead to the deaths of countless millions throughout the world and the suffering of even more.

Once again, what you are trying to assign to Islam in India was taking place elsewhere in the world in the name of Christianity.

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I have stated the imperialism, domination and Islam supremacy is a covenanted terms [contracted] within the Quran and Ahadith that ALL Muslims must comply with.
Therefore the unilateral imperialism of India and other countries are a compulsion of the ideology of Islam.

Note I have repeated many times re who is Christian.
Who is a Christian?
A Christian is a person who has entered into a covenant with the Christian God via Jesus Christ to comply with the covenanted terms in the Gospels [note critically the Gospels] supported by relevant verses from the epistles, acts and the OT.
The overriding term of the covenant is the pacifist maxim of love all, even one's enemies, neighbor and the other cheek.
Thus the overriding term do not condone any Christian to kill any other human being.

Those Christians who killed are not wearing their Christian hats when they killed or commit other crimes. They are doing these evil acts on their own freewill for various reasons.
Get it?

Whatever the number killed in India, it pales in comparison to the numbers killed by other colonizers, including Christian, during the same time frame.

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There you go again.
We have gone through this MANY TIMES on you fallacious tu quoque argument.
All killing and evil acts by Christians and others must be addressed. They are off topic here. You cannot use these killing as an excuse Muslims can kill too. Weird and immoral thinking?

There are close to 100 references to the Qur'an and dozens more references to Islamic texts in the footnotes. I'm not sure how you could have missed that if you clicked on the link.

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I don't know, I can't see them.
My guess from experiences is the apologists often cherry pick.
Note the video re CP where the Muslim debater admitted most of his preachers and iman had lied to him.

I found these examples in just glancing over the first few pages of his 180 page list.

25:61 Blessed is He who placed the constellations in the heavens and placed there the sun and moon. It is He who made the night and the day to follow each other for the benefit of those who desire to consider Allah, or who desire to be grateful.

52:48 Wait patiently for your Lord’s Judgment, because you are in Our eye. Sing Allah’s praises when you rise up, and give Him praise at night and when the stars are setting.

25:45 Have you considered how your Lord makes the shadow grow? If He wished, He could make it stationary. But We have made the sun its guide; then We bring it to Ourselves, a gradual retreat. It is He who makes the night like a covering for you and sleep a repose and makes the day a resurrection.

19:66 Man says, “What? When I am dead, will I then be resurrected?” Does man not remember that We created him before out of nothing?

21:19 Every creature in the heavens and on earth belongs to Him. Those in His presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they get tired of the service. They praise Him day and night. They never stop.

67:12 However, forgiveness and a great reward waits for those who secretly fear their Lord. Whether you speak openly or secretly, He knows everything in your heart. Should He not know His creations? He is the subtle, the aware. He smoothed the earth for you, so walk its paths and eat the food He provides. Everything will return to Him after death.

23:62 We do not place upon any soul a burden that is beyond its ability, and We possess a record which speaks the truth. They will never be wronged.

How do the above verses and the hundreds of others he quotes that are similar lead to an "us versus them" mentality, or lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims?

Bill Warner's research is nonsense. If he used the same criteria to judge the Bible he would come to the exact same conclusions.

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Note the above verses need to be coupled with the related verses which include the mentioned of the disbelievers, 25:61 is coupled with 25:63 wherein the term believer is included.

Note example;


Bill Warners listing is not very effective but if you read the all the verses in the listing you will note 90% of the verses do include the element of disbelievers, either directly or in terms of pronouns or adjectives.

JZ said:

How do the above verses and the hundreds of others he quotes that are similar lead to an "us versus them" mentality, or lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims?

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I have done loads of research in the 'Us versus them' impulse aka the ingroups versus outgroups;

Outgroup derogation

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Discrimination between ingroups and outgroups is a matter of favoritism towards an ingroup and the absence of equivalent favoritism towards an outgroup.[7] Outgroup derogation is the phenomenon in which an outgroup is perceived as being threatening to the members of an ingroup.[8] This phenomenon often accompanies ingroup favoritism, as it requires one to have an affinity towards their ingroup. Some research suggests that outgroup derogation occurs when an outgroup is perceived as blocking or hindering the goals of an ingroup. It has also been argued that outgroup derogation is a natural consequence of the categorization process.
Ingroups and outgroups - Wikipedia

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The above consequence would lead to genocide of the others, the them and the outgroup after continuous mounting derogations and in the case of the 3400++ antagonistic and derogatory verses [of various degrees] and this has resulted in many genocides led by Muslims, the most recent the genocide of the Yazidis by I.S.I.S not long ago.
The genocide in the case of SOME Muslims is very probable because it is led and condone by an all powerful God where the salvation of the believers are at God's mercy and Muslims will do whatever God condones.

Note the prevalence and continuing "us versus them" war cry is the first critical stage of an impending genocide;
10 Stages of Genocide
Such an factor is inherent within the ideology of Islam in the Quran.

It should only take a few minutes to copy your research and upload it to a free site like WordPress. If you have taken the time to do this exhausting amount of research, then I'm sure you are anxious to share it with others.

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OK I will try that to download the whole listing.

Here are those 15 verses you are referring to again:

(Qur'an 1)
1. In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
2. Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds.
3. The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. It is You we worship, and upon You we call for help.
6. Guide us to the straight path.
7. The path of those You have blessed, not of those against whom there is anger, nor of those who are misguided.

(Qur'an 2)
1. Alif, Lam, Meem.
2. This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.
3. Those who believe in the unseen, and perform the prayers, and give from what We have provided for them.
4. And those who believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.
5. These are upon guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.
6. As for those who disbelieve—it is the same for them, whether you have warned them, or have not warned them—they do not believe.
7. God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. They will have a severe torment.
8. Among the people are those who say, “We believe in God and in the Last Day,” but they are not believers.

The above verses sound very similar to what can be found in the Bible. Once again, Muhammad repeated much of what he learned from Jews and Christians during his travels, so this should come as no surprise. The reason you don't want me to use the Bible is because using the Bible proves that your position lacks merit. For example, look at the verses below where God shows His hatred towards wrongdoers and the punishment that awaits them:

“The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.” (Psalm 11:5)

“Then the anger of the Lord was kindled against his people, and he abhorred his heritage” (Psalms 106:40)

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)

"The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates." (Psalm 11:5)

"Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them." (Lev. 20:23)

"There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19)

"All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels." (Hosea 9:15)

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him," (John 3:36).

"If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)

Do the above verses lead Christians to hate those mentioned in the verses above? Of course not, just as the verses you quote from the Qur'an don't lead to Muslims hating non-Muslims.


Once again, like the 15 verses you have already mentioned, there is nothing in the first 10 chapters of the Qur'an, or the entire Qur'an that would lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims.

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Those are not the specific 15 verses I listed. You're sloppy in this case.

Here they are [again];
Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims
Read them again to note the 'us versus them' mode


The above 15 are part of the whole 3400+ where the disbeliever in mentioned in an antagonistic mode in various degrees.
Note 'in various degrees' from mild to the greatest of contempt, hatred and abhorrence.

In my detail analysis of the 3400++ of antagonistic verses, I have identified categories in at least 50 categories of degrees of hatred and antagonism.

Are you familiar with Microsoft Excel. What I did is to put the whole 6236 verses in one column with 1000++ columns of different sub and sub-sub categories. Then it is easy to sort them to whatever results I want. This is objective and no room for much error and subjective opinions.

JosephZ said:

How do you know this to be true? From what I can tell, this is just an anonymous individual on the internet. Have you seen his credentials?


How do you know the person he is talking to is legit? How do you know whether or not this is a staged conversation?

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CP posted his credential in his site. Being objectively oriented I agree we cannot accept it with 100% or high level of confidence.
I agree is possible it could be a staged conversation.

What is critical here is CP's objective approach to his arguments which is open for all to see and verify the verses and Ahadiths on their own.

One point is CP is quite rude, but he stated [in his interview with David Wood] he had to use such an approach because that the culture of those Arabs and to be effective he had to do it that way with specific people. CP is not always rude with everyone.
Personally I would prefer he debate more politely and professionally.

From what I see after clicking on several of his other videos, it looks like Christian Prince is all about selling his books and raising money through his Patreon account.

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Red herring, straw man and deflection again.
What is critical is the substance of the argument whether it is in his books or his arguments.

Is there any hard evidence of this?

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That are loads of testimony from ex-Muslims commentators his Youtube Videos.
Note, loads of his videos are translated into Indonesian by independent people and my Indonesians had commented in those videos they have left Islam upon listening his debates [translated].

Perhaps if you translate his videos to Tagalog, it would educate many in Philippines.

You ask why Muslims should leave the peaceful religion of Islam? Because belonging to a peaceful religion doesn't provide salvation. As a Christian, I believe they are lost without Christ, and I want all Muslims to come to know Christ as I do.

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Thus you still have to argue and debate with Muslims why their religion do not provide salvation.

CP had argued on this point very efficiently and effectively.

Once again, I have been studying Islam for more than three decades. I was able to pick up on many errors by Christian Prince in the videos I glanced over. I have a pretty thorough understanding of what Islam teaches and what Muslims believe. I would never use the approach of the man heard on those videos because I wouldn't want to insult the intelligence of the Muslim I'm speaking too, nor would I want to come across as being ignorant of their religion.

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In the above situation, time is a constraint and CP has to do his best given the circumstances, this is a sign of high intelligence in his ability to formulate an effective argument in such a short time.
I agree the argument is rough at the edges but is effective given the time constraint.

I would suggest you sacrifice a bit of time listen to the full video. There is much to learn there in that short video. Here it is again;

When I talk to Muslims about my faith, I start by asking them about theirs first. I'm a good listener first and foremost, and I don't try to force my opinions on them. In return, I share with them my personal testimony on how my faith in Christ came to be and how it has become a part of my everyday life. I share with them the struggles I face and how I lift them up to God. I always try to incorporate scripture into the conversation and how it relates to my faith and my relationship to God. I also like to offer a Bible as a gift if I have one available.

Christians are told to love God and to love their neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40). I can show love towards God by faithfully sharing the gospel, and I can show love to my Muslim neighbors by showing them respect.

When talking to a Muslim I don't criticize Islam, other Muslims, or Muhammad. My role in reaching out to Muslims with the gospel is not to condemn, insult, or embarrass them, but to love, respect, and accept them. I'm a representative of Jesus Christ, therefore; I avoid arguing at all costs and respect Muslim's opinions, even if I disagree with them.

At the end of my conversation, I always try to end with a word of prayer and ask how I can pray for them. I also ask if it's acceptable to them if I pray in the name of Jesus the Messiah. In most cases they don't object to this request.

My role as a Christian is to show the love of Jesus Christ through the gospel not to convert people to Christianity. I can't convert anyone and neither can Christian Prince. Everything in evangelism depends on the work of the Holy Spirit, not me or anyone else, and there is a lot that the Holy Spirit does that I simply have no part in at all.

Finally, As personal witnesses to Jesus Christ and the gospel, living my life in a Christlike manor and treating others with a Christlike attitude is of upmost importance.

“For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps” (1 Peter 2:21)

"Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and respect;" (1 Peter 3:15)

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Your approach may be pleasant but it is not effective.

Showing a Muslim the similarities between our two faiths is the optimal way to share the gospel, not pointing out errors and getting involved in debate.

Below is what Muslims believe:

“We believe in God; and in what was revealed to us; and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus; and in what was given to the prophets—from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we surrender.” (Qur'an 2:136)

"...there is no god but He, the Living, the Eternal. He sent down to you the Book with the Truth, confirming what came before it; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel." (Qur'an 3:2-3)

And here's another verse from the Qur'an:

"So if you are in doubt about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those (The Jews and Christians) who have been reading the Scripture (The Torah and the Injeel/Gospel) before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters". (Qur'an 10:94)[/quote]
In substance, Christianity is not comparable to Islam.
Muhammad in his early stage of preaching, praised Christianity and Judaism [as in the verse above], but in the ultimate, Islam condemned Christianity as a corrupted religion.

In contrast to Christianity, in Islam, there is no overriding pacifist maxim of "love all" including enemies to close all possibilities of evil and violent anyone.

In the following verse the Torah and the Gospel are mentioned and how Jesus fulfilled what is written in the Torah:

In their footsteps, We sent Jesus son of Mary, fulfilling the Torah that preceded him; and We gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah that preceded him, and guidance and counsel for the righteous. So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what God revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what God revealed are the sinners. (Qur'an 5:46-47)

Here is what Islam teaches about Jesus:

His mother, Mary, was a virgin; Jesus was the "Word" of God; Jesus was the Messiah sent to the children of Israel; Jesus confirmed the validity of the Torah; Jesus lived a righteous life; Jesus performed miracles. Healed the blind, the sick, and raised the dead; Jesus removed some of the law of Moses; Jesus was raised into heaven currently sits with God, and will return at the day of the Resurrection (Judgement Day); and Jesus is the only living profit in Islam.

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The Isa [presumed to be Jesus] is not the mesiah Jesus Christian of the Gospels.

Since our faiths have so much in common, why would I have to resort to pointing out errors in theirs. My aim is to show how Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and the importance of Him being crucified and resurrected as a sacrifice for our sins.

People do not like to be told they are wrong. Since Muslims already worship the God of Abraham, acknowledge Jesus the Messiah, and respect Him and His teachings, there's no reason to even go in that direction.

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In essence, Christianity and Islam are not comparable at all.

What is essential is the truth must prevail.
The truth is painful but to be honest it must be told preferable in a more amiable way. Are you honest in speak the truth in terms of the substance and essence of Islam?

JosephZ said:

There is no such ideology in Islam that Muslims must colonize non-Muslim countries.

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In general Islam claim it is the final and only true religion that should dominate the world using whatever the necessary means, including the evil and violent acts. Thus all Muslims are duty bound to carry out Allah's will to ensure of their salvation. Those who sacrifice their live and wealth will be heavily rewarded when in paradise with eternal life.

What I get is that you are not using the same measure of Judgement against those who claim to be Christians and those who claim to be Muslims.

Just as I agree with you that those who carry out atrocities in the name of Christianity are not following the teachings of Christ and are therefore not true Christians, a Muslim will tell you that those who carry out atrocities in the name of Islam are not following the teachings found in Islam and are therefore not true Muslims.

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The difference is Christians had covenanted with God thus must comply with the pacifist maxim of love all, even enemies. Thus Christians who kill even their enemies cannot be committing those killings in the name of Christianity except by their own free will and will be judge by God subsequently.

In Islam, there is no absolute limitation on evil and violent acts toward non-Muslims.
Muslims are exhorted to kill non-Muslims if the religion is under threat. The definition of threat is very vague to the extend mob of Muslims killed non-Muslim because of cartoons.

The point is without any absolute limitation and restraint on evil and violent acts, SOME [pool of 300 million] will kill in the defense of the religion as permitted by God.

The moderates can condemn and insist what they like, but as humans they do not have the authority to judge which action is right or wrong. Only Allah can do that to be revealed on Judgment Day.

So as long as Islam exists and is active, SOME [from a pool of 300 million] will continue to be duty bound to do what Allah commands and permit, i.e. committing evil and violent acts against non-Muslims.

Nearly 70,000 clerics came together and passed a fatwa against terrorist organizations, including IS, Taliban and and al-Qaida. These are “not Islamic organizations,” adding that the members of these outfits were “not Muslims”.

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Note my point above.
Whether it is 70,000 or 7 million clerics, they don't have the authority of Allah to judge which Islamic act is right or wrong.
What divine power do they have to stop those from the pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims who do not agree with them? None.

So the reality is, those from the pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims will continue to act in accordance with what is permitted by Allah in the Quran and Ahadiths to take the necessary actions which the consequences is the loads of evil and violent acts upon non-Muslims.

I was not making excuses for killers of either party. I was just showing you that what was happening in India was happening in all parts of the world during that time frame. You keep trying to make it look like what Islamic imperialist were doing was unique, but that is historically inaccurate.

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I have explained MANY TIMES where ultimately there is no encompassing and overriding pacifist maxim to stop those from the pool of 300 million evil prone Muslim to be duty bound to do what they ought to do as true Muslims, i.e. resulting in terrible evil and violent acts.

Here's another link that may work better: Letter to Baghdadi - Open Letter to Baghdadi

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I have downloaded and will read the details.
I had a quick glance of the details and noted the usual apologetic references.

It is worth repeating my above point again;

I don't see anything wrong with those verses and I can't see how they would lead to an "us versus them" mentality, or lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims.

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It is not two or few verses that is of concern.

Note it is common knowledge.
Take two big groups [A & B] of 100++ million each.
The the ideology and manifesto [containing 6236 statements] of one group say A comprises of 3400++ statements contain antagonistic, derogatory and insulting statements towards the Group B.
It is very natural the manifesto of group A will generate a strong "us versus them" resentment, antagonism and hatred towards group B.
Note the example of the Democrats' and media's daily condemnation [falsehoods and fake news] of the Republican and Trump which generated the Trump Derangement Syndrome.

I doubt that 90% of the verses include the elements that you mentioned, but even if they do, what they contain is similar to what is written in the Bible about non-believers, and I can't see how these verses could lead anyone to having an "us versus them" mentality, or lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims.

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I have repeated my counter to the above MANY TIMES already.
You are using the Tu Quoque Fallacy [Bible too] which bad logical thinking and off topic.
Note the focus of Christianity by definition is on the Gospels not the whole of the Bible where the OT is mainly abrogated.

Note is 55% i.e. 3400++ of the total of 6236 verses of the Quran which are directed at non-Muslims in derogatory and insulting terms of a range of degrees from mild to extreme.
The "us versus them" will definitely be generated in such a high % in the given context.
Note the accusation that the majority of Muslims will not integrate with the rest of non-Muslims and this point is so evident.

Sorry for my error. I just started with the first 15 without going back because I remember you saying you had a problem with the al-Fitah which is the first Chapter of the Qur'an. I basically quoted the same thing except I was lacking the last four verses in your quote above.

As for the verses you quoted, I see no problem with them. Even with the four additional verses, what is being said is very similar to what is found in the Bible. Since this is the case, I would like to know what your opinion is of the verses below:

• Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers… what fellowship has light with darkness?.. for what part has a believer with an unbeliever? (2 Corinthians 6:13-15)
• The wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; (Ephesians 5:6-7)
• ..whoever does not believe will be damned. (Mark 16:16)
• ...to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)
• And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. (Acts 3:23)
• In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4)
• Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:34-37)
• ...whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:18-19)
• ...whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words... it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (Matthew 10:14-15)
• You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (Matthew 23:33)
• The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. (Psalm 145:20)
• Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)
• But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (1 Timothy 5:8)
• “But cowards, unbelievers... their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. (Revelation 21:8)
• But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7)
• When the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
• Unless you repent, you will perish. (Luke 13:3)

You say the verses from the Qur'an in your example display opposition or hostility toward disbelievers, don't the examples above do the same using your criteria?

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Same straw-man and toothless defense.
Your point is off topic as I have explained above and many times.

You are using the Tu Quoque Fallacy [what about the Bible] which bad logical thinking.

Whatever similar verses that are antagonistic towards non-Christians are overridden by the all encompassing pacifist statement of love all, even one's enemies.

Meaning, if for whatever the reason if any Christian hate non-Christians, s/he must love all even the enemies the hated.
This is a smart move by the Christian God to fool proof Christianity so that no idiotic Christians will bring a bad name to the religion of Christianity and the fault is directed to the perpetrator not the religion itself.

In the course of protecting Christianity, the religion itself from blame in the absolute sense, God will then deal with the sinners on Judgment Day.

Islam on the other hand do not have an overriding pacifist maxim of love all even enemies to protect itself from evil prone Muslims with itchy evil tendencies.
Instead Islam has verses that permit Muslims to do what is necessary [which happened to be evil and violent in nature] if the religion is threatened [definition of threat is very vague, even cartoons!! are a threat].

JosephZ said:

Here's another link that may work better: Letter to Baghdadi - Open Letter to Baghdadi

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As I had mentioned the above letter is toothless because those who signed the letter do not have the authority to judge which acts are right or wrong.
Only Allah and judge Muslims for the acts they have committed and they will only know on Judgment Day [no one knows when this Islamic J-Day will happen].
Meantime at the present and the future, the evil prone Muslims will commit 'evil and violent acts'* permitted by Allah which they deemed as their divine duty. To those Muslim those acts are morally right but are evil and violent to the victims.

In any case, here is one point raised in the letter which is toothless, ref pg 5-6;

Note the above is toothless, note the next verse 5:33.

In the above case, Al Bagdadi will counter, he had killed non-Muslims as a divine duty as permitted by Allah as in 5:33 since the the non-Christians who had been killed, oppressed, etc. had committed corruption [FSD: fasādan; mischiefs, wronged].
The definition of FSD: fasādan are stated within the Quran which extended to include not-believing in Islam. Note the I.S.I.S' reason [I referenced] on why they kill non-believers for merely disbelieving in Islam as a threat to the religion.

Now if Al Bagdadi insisted he is complying with Allah's command and permission as in the Quran 5:33, who are the signatories of the letter, as human beings, to judge him?
Al Bagdadi will insist only Allah can judge him and he will continue to carry out his divine duty until Judgment Day, which I is confident he is right and will be rewarded as promised in the covenanted terms in his covenant with Allah.

Can you see dilemma between the Muslims themselves?
If 300 million Muslims has such a belief, what can the rest of Muslims and majority [who cannot judge on Allah behalf] do?

It is not only 5:32 as above it toothless, but there are 100s of verses that are toothless to prevent those inclined to evil and violence to act their divine duty which unfortunately end up with acts of evil and violence.

Note the no-compulsion and your religion is yours, mine is mine as CP argued objectively as toothless in the CP video I linked.

You agreed Islam is a false religion with a false prophet and the doctrine is presented shoddily with evil and violent elements that are not fool proof, thus trigger SOME Muslims from the pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims to commit acts that end up as evil and violent towards non-Muslims.

So the above letter is toothless and ineffective and they can write and insist they are right, but Al Bagdadi and his likes will obey Allah to ensure of their own salvation.

In reality what we end up is this stalemate;


Note I am not referring to terrorist attacks alone, but the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by the SOME 300 million Muslims.

The fact is no humans nor any of the above group nor any other human has the authority to judge which acts as interpreted from the Quran and Ahadiths are right or wrong.

Only Allah can judge but Allah will not be appearing on earth any time to pronounced who is right and wrong other till Judgment Day.

This is why we have to focus on the truth of the above dilemma.

JosephZ said:

At least there is something we can find agreement on.

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We agree in general but not in specifics.

His arguments would seem convincing to those who have little to no knowledge of Islam, but not to real Muslims. Based on what I see on his youtube channel and his social media pages, his target audience seems to be westerners rather than Muslims. I also noticed he has very few followers on his accounts (Less than 12,000) and few supporting him financially on his Petreon page (Around 400). This tells me that his teaching belongs in the fringe category. To me his videos seem to be staged and they are nothing more than infomercials for selling his books.

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Seem? meaning you are not sure.
Point is you have not listened to more of his videos [at least 50 to make a fair judgment].
In some of the video, the debaters claimed to be experts in Islam.

Note the Youtube Channel is "Christian Prince Debates" not Christian Prince main channels.

My point supporting Christian Prince debates are the references he used i.e. ALWAYS based on the direct sources of Islam in Arabic. My focus is on this and I ignored his silly and rude comments which are not critical to the core of debate.

Show me where CP had made a significant number* errors in his reference to the Islamic core texts?
Being a fallible human he is not perfect but overall he is very objective in his argument. Btw, do you understand the significance of being 'objective'.

I'm always skeptical of evangelists, especially those online, who make claims of converting large numbers of people to Christianity. Even more so when the testimonies of those being converted can't be verified. With a little creative writing it's easy for someone to make an impressive appearance on the internet.

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I agree with the above, where they just talk and quote. In this case, they would use charisma, rhetoric and various psychological elements to convince the audience.

But CP is totally different, he just don't quote but bring forth the quotes and texts [in Arabic and translations] on screen and prove that they are supported by Muslims sites, e.g. Sunnah.Com and others.

Each tribe here speaks a different language and few people in the regions I work in are fluent in Tagalog, even then, I wouldn't translate or share his videos with Muslims here because his understanding of Islam differs from that of Muslims in general.

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As I had stated, this arguments are objective.
The beliefs of the majority of Muslims are based on faith for emotional reasons.
The clerics who influence the majority do not present an open book to their listeners like CP.

Aside from the testimonies you find on Christian Prince's Youtube channel or other similar channels, how many testimonies from former Muslims have you heard where they mention arguing or debating is what led them to Christ?

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Most of the ex-Muslims [99%] who became Christians or non-Christians left Islam because they came to understand Islam is inherently evil and violent.

Note this ex-Muslim who is a reasonable expert on Islam and spent 16 years preaching Islam - I suggest you listen to him, its only 9 mins;


Preferably, you could listen to his other videos.

Note I have listen to many videos [>50] of ex-Muslims who converted out of Islam after being convinced the ideology of Islam is inherently evil and violent.

Fortunately there have been many studies on this subject, and they always come to the same conclusion. Muslims come to Christ because of Christ Himself and seeing Christ in others. Below is a sample of some of these studies.

A case study of 170 conversion narratives; mostly from Sudan; a case study of Palestinians and Bangladeshis; a paper examining the written testimonies of 173 Muslims worldwide who came to faith in Jesus Christ, and a study of 750 former Muslims, a study in Kenya of 17 urban ex-Muslims, These all confirm what all other studies have shown: the Living Christ and living Christians are the main keys to conversion.

Jean-Marie Gaudeul’s Study (1999)

Gaudeul published his findings of 170 publicly available conversion stories in a book named Called from Islam to Christ. He lists five main factors in conversion:

• “Jesus is so attractive”
• Jesus alone satisfies their “Thirst for Truth”
• Christianity satisfies their longing for community as they felt like they were “without a family”
• Christianity satifies an existential need for actual forgiveness
• “a thirst for God” by which he means a thirst to encounter God in a personal way

Anthony (Ant) Greenham’s Study (2004)

Ant Greenham conducted research on Palestinian Muslim converts and then compared that data with conversions in Bangladesh. His research shows that among both men and women, the overwhelming factor that they cited in their coming to faith in Christ was the person of Jesus. He states, that “the person of Jesus is always central.”

• The person of Jesus,
• the truth of Jesus’ message,
• God’s honor,
• the lives of believers,
• reading the Bible,
• God’s miraculous action.

Bruce L. Bronoske's Study (2005):

In 2005 Bronoske studied conversion narratives of 173 people throughout the world and compiled the data in his study entitled “A Comparative Study Of The Self-Revelation Of Jesus Found In The Canonical New Testament And The Jesus of The Qur'an, And The Effect A Muslim Seeker's Understanding Of Jesus Has Upon Their Decision To Convert To Christianity." [Northwest Graduate School Of The Ministry, D.Min]

92% of converts from Islam cited the Biblical Jesus as the focal point of their conversion.

...these Muslims gave their devotion was as Bronoske stated, “was the New Testament understanding of Jesus Christ. That is, Jesus Christ as He was revealed within the text of the canonical New Testament”. This Jesus had been introduced to them primarily through a "familiar voice" namely through a “friend, a family member, or a trusted acquaintance”

Bronoske summarized his work by citing a quote from Francis Schaeffer, namely that if he had only one hour to share the gospel with a person, he would spend the first forty-five minutes finding out what the person believed about God and the last fifteen minutes presenting Christ from that basis.

J. Dudley Woodberry, Russell G. Shubin, and G. Marks study (2007):

In 2007 an article which summarized 750 interviews with former Muslims was featured in Christianity Today under the title: “Why Muslims Follow Jesus?: The results of a recent survey of converts from Islam.” The study, done between 1991 and 2007, surveyed people from 30 countries and 50 ethnic groups. The researchers ranked the order of influences stated by their correspondents on their conversions:

• the lifestyle of Christians
• the power of God in answered prayers and healing
• dissatisfaction with the type of Islam they had experienced
• spiritual truth in the Bible
• love expressed through the life and teachings of Jesus.

Reinhold Strahler's Study (2009):

In Nairobi, Kenya, Reinhold Strahler conducted extensive interviews with 17 urban former Muslims who had come to faith. Like Bronoske he found strong evidences for the “familiar voice” as being decisive in the conversion stories. Similarly the life of Christians and the Bible figures strongly in the findings.

Significant factors in all conversion processes, sorted by frequency

• personal witness by Christians
• attractive lifestyle of Christians
• love / friendship shown by Christians
• reading Bible
• dissatisfaction with practice of Islam
• evangelistic meetings
• answered prayer

In a nutshell these Muslim converts encountered the living Jesus, the living Word of God, and living Christians.

Source: Why Do Muslims Come to Christ? Five Case Studies

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You are being dishonest here.
In two of the authors, it is mentioned,
"dissatisfaction with practice of Islam "

I believe 99% of those above surveyed would be "dissatisfaction with practice of Islam "
because it is so obvious.
If they were asked the question,
Does Islam condone evil and violent acts?
They [99%] will likely answer 'yes' because it is so evident and objective.

Note:

While online arguments and debates may seem like an effective way of witnessing to Muslims, in the real world, that's not the reality. These type of debates are a good way for authors to promote their books and get people to donate money to them though.

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There are all kinds of Christians, but from what I have known of CP, he is a sincere Christian.
Btw, CP is risking his life to tell the truths in exposing the inherent evil and violent within the ideology of Islam in a very objective manner which is a hallmark of excellence in being a good human universally.

The videos seem staged to me, so while it may seem like he's highly intelligent on the subject matter, that could be because his debates and videos are well scripted. I'm not saying for certain that's the case, but it's just how they come across to me.

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It is possible [only 10%] to be staged but I don't believe that based on the evidence available.

It's the same Jesus, they just have a different understanding of who He is. Muslims unfortunately miss the most important aspect of Jesus, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; and the importance of Him being crucified and resurrected as a sacrifice for our sins.

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I have given you the quote from the Quran that insisted Isa [Jesus] was never crucified and did not die on the cross. Allah stated he placed another man there. Obviously to you as a Christian you should have noted Allah lied in this case.
Allah condemned Jesus of the current NT as a fake, i.e. a God cannot have a son!
Allah stated the NT and OT you have on hand are the corrupted version. [supporting verse available].
You are truly blinded as a crazy sort of Christian!

Islam is a progressive religion and in the view of Muslims simply a continuation of Judaism and Christianity. Islam recognizes the same prophets as Christians and the same stories are told, just from a different point of view. It's impossible not to notice the similarities and how Muhammad borrowed the concept of Islam from Judaism and Christianity.

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Islam the ideology is not progressive.
Christianity is progressive, i.e. it abrogated my of the OT verses which were suited to the related past.
Islam reverted to the elements of the OT and introduce more terrible evil and violent elements into the Quran. This is evidence and objective.
Islam do not have a overriding pacifist maxim to cap and override whatever negative elements that could be misinterpreted.

My understanding of Islam is in line with that of the Muslims I witness to, so there really isn't much to debate about on the issue of Islam. I'm pretty much in agreement with what they believe about their religion. Since that's the case, I direct my focus on the gospel which is: "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; He was buried; and He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.... and righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in His blood... For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly… But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us… For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life... In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.” (1 Corinthians 15:3,4)(Romans 3:22-25)(Romans 5:6, 8, 10)(Ephesians 1:7)

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What you witness of the majority of Muslims is they are being more human than being more Muslim. They are practicing the human values of being more friendly, sincere, honest.

As I had defined, a Muslim is one who had entered into a covenant with Allah to comply with the covenanted terms, the core being the 6236 verses in the Quran.

We can have a objective measure of the degree of Islamism of a Muslims.
It is so easy, i.e.
List all the 6236 verses in a column and get all Muslims to tick their compliance [yes or no] to the terms within each verses.
The number of 'yes' will determine the degree of Islam_ness of each Muslim.

I am very confident based on my observation in reality, the majority of Muslims will have less than 40% of yes while those [300 million] who are more antagonistic to non-Muslims will have an average of 60% of compliance to the 6236 verses.

Btw, are you aware there are three main ratings of believers of Islam, i.e.


I don't think you know of the above even you claimed to be a reasonable expert and long time student of Islam.

Al Masihi said:

I have no problem with people practicing any religion so long as it doesn’t interfere in my personal life, Islam however does just that so I have an issue with it being an ideology that dictates ever aspect of life and being an ideology that’s spread through forceful means and degrades culture and social life. That set aside I have no problem with Muslims as a people, they have good and bad people, ups and downs just like all other other people. I have a problem with Muslims as a people, I have a problem with a violent and oppressive ideology that they follow that’s called Islam.

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Agree with your point.

A Muslim is a person who had entered into a covenant with Allah to comply with the covenanted terms stipulated in the Quran [core].
From the acts of SOME Muslims [pool of 300 million] it is very noticeable and obvious evidently that there is something evil and violent emanating from the ideology of Islam.
However we must confirm the above thesis with objective references and root causes linked to the ideology.
I hope you have, if not I suggest you learn more about the essence of Islam via the Quran and the Ahadith.

JosephZ said:

They speak for the majority of the Muslim world. What they say in the links I shared is basically how and what all Muslims in the world believe, although there will be some minor variations. Judgement Day and what Allah is going to decide at that time for Muslims is not an issue when it comes to what 99% of the Muslims believe and practice in their daily lives today. You should be happy that they don't follow the teachings of extremists and terrorists.

While you may disagree with these Islamic Scholars and clerics, keep in mind that they have devoted their entire lives to knowing their religion, not a few hours, weeks, or months browsing the internet or skimming through Islamic texts. You’re free to believe whatever you’d like about Islam, but I find it sad that you choose to believe the words of extremists and anti-propagandists over that of the vast majority of Muslims whose words and actions directly contradict them.

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The objective test of whether the majority of Muslims has a high degree of Muslim_ness of Islam-ness is to verify whether they have comply with the covenanted terms [the 6236 verses] to the best of their ability.

I do not simply agree with the extremists [truer Muslims] but my conclusions are based on inferences objectively abstracted from the actions of those truer Muslims against their compliance to the covenanted terms in the Quran and Ahadith.

The truer Muslims [you called extremists] comply with more of the covenanted terms than the moderate Muslims.
Both would comply with the core terms but the truer Muslims would obey God by not befriending and are not intimate friends with non-Muslims.
In addition, according to the definition of threats against Islam, it is obvious the terms of Islam, all non-Muslims being disbelievers are a threat to Islam in addition to their actions towards Islam which are a threat to Islam. Therefore the truer Muslims had complied and done their duty by hating non-Muslims, go to war and killing them given the opportunity.

Note I am not condoning the above.
I am just pointing out the fact that the ideology of Islam contain inherent evil and violent elements which non-Muslims and the moderate Muslims must be aware of.

I'm using those verses to expose your double standard when it comes to judging Islam.

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What double standard??
I have already stated MANY TIMES all evil and violent acts committed by any human being [Christians or otherwise] must be addressed.
I have also argued many times, whatever evil and violent element there is in the OT or NT, they are overriden by the pacifist maxim of love all, even one's enemies.
You have not countered this critical point I had raised many times.

Btw, show some respect to your integrity and intelligence in not using bad and fallacious logic re the Tu Quoque Fallacy.

There are not 320 million Muslims that adhere to the idea that they will be rewarded for hating, killing, or waging war with non-Muslims. It's in all likelihood the number is less than 10% of that number and those that do believe that way are labeled extremist and shunned by the Muslim world. There is no stalemate when the sides are lined up at 99+% to less than 1%.

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Note I stated DNA wise 20% of all humans are born with an active evil tendency, thus 300 [20% x 1.5b] million of evil prone Muslims around the world who will have the natural proclivity and bias to those evil and violent elements in the Quran.
The point is these 300 million has an active evil potential which could be triggered any time.

You will note a mob is quickly formed with angry Muslims whenever there is perceived threat against islam, i.e. note the atheist student killed by a mob in Pakistan. Note the thousands of Muslim protestors that appear suddenly for Muslim causes all over the world.

Once in Indonesia there was a protest against the Governor of Jakarta of false accusations of blasphemy and that he cannot be rulling Muslims because he is a Christian. Are you aware of that since Indonesia is close to your location? Such incidence are happening everywhere where there are Muslims.

The stalemate is a reality!
Can you counter this stalemate and dilemma I raised above?

If there were 300 million people of all faiths and backgrounds committing evil and violent acts globally, the world would be in chaos.

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The world is actually in chaos already at present.
Note my focus is not on terrorism only but the whole gamut and range of evil and violence which is too long to list.

When we look at violent deaths worldwide which include murder, terrorism and combat deaths we find the following:

• In 2016, at least 560,000 people were killed violently, which corresponds to about 7.50 violent deaths per 100,000 population. The rate is slightly lower than it was in 2015 (7.73) and 2014 (8.12).
• Globally, 99,000 people died in armed conflict in 2016. This number is lower than in 2015 (119,000), following a peak in 2014 (143,000), but it is still more than twice as high as in 2004 (42,000).
• The five most violent countries in 2016—in terms of recorded violent death rates— were Syria, El Salvador, Venezuela, Honduras, and Afghanistan.
• Jamaica exhibited the highest violent death rate among women and girls in 2016: 25.6 per 100,000 female population.
• The greatest number of women and girls were killed in 2016 in countries with large populations, such as India (10,700 deaths), followed by Nigeria (6,400), Brazil (5,700), Pakistan (4,400), China (3,900), the Russian Federation (3,800), the United States (3,400), and the Democratic Republic of the Congo (2,900).
• The proportion of women and girls among violent death victims has remained at a constant level.

From the above, we can see that there were around 560,000 people globally who were killed violently in 2016. Of those, about 385,000 of them were the victims of intentional homicides.

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This tells us that there are at most 500,000 people of all religions and backgrounds committing these acts of violence since many of the deaths (Around 99,000) resulted from direct conflict/war and many of the perpetrators would have multiple victims.

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Even if every single violent death in the world was at the hands of someone who claimed to be a Muslim in 2016, that would mean that less than 0.002% of the world's Muslim population killed someone in 2016. What we also learn from this study is that most violent deaths occur in non-Muslim regions of the world, which means Muslims are responsible for fewer violent deaths than non-Muslims, and the 0.002% is too high.

Now let's break the above down to your mythical number of 320 million "Evil Prone Muslims" who believe that Allah will grant them a passage to paradise with eternal life for killing non-Muslims. Even then, if every single person killed in 2016 was at the hands of someone claiming to be a Muslim, less than 0.01% of your pool of 320 million "Evil Prone Muslims" killed someone in that year.

If these Muslims are so evil prone and believe that killing a non-believer will guarantee them a place in paradise with many rewards, then why aren't they killing people? It's not happening. Even among your pool of 320 Million, 99.99% of them didn't kill anyone in 2016. Yes, there are murders and terrorist attacks being carried out by Islamic extremists and others who claim to be Muslims, but not anywhere close to the scale that would support the numbers you are claiming.

If you want to add sexual violence and assaults to the list of evil acts and violence, you will also find that the rates are much higher in non-Muslim countries than Muslim majority countries, so even in that department, there is no evidence to support your claims.

The bottom line is if Islam actually did teach that hostilities and violence against non-Muslims ensured salvation, with 1.8+ billion Muslims in the world, you would see much higher rates of murder and terrorism on a global scale than what we are seeing. Simple math proves your theories to be wrong and your fears to be unwarranted.

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The above is a straw-man and off topic.

I have stated ALL evil and violent acts must be addressed.
This thread is solely related to the evil and violent acts of Muslims.
The solution is to trace the root cause of the above evil and violent acts which I had traced to;


On topic, the solution above is to get rid of 1 or 2 then we will have ZERO evil and violent acts related to the religion of Islam.

It is not practical to tweak the natural DNA structure of those who are evil prone.
However, in theory, it is very possible to get every one to convert out of Islam or ban Islam, thus leaving no possibility of Islamic driven evil and violent acts, i.e. ZERO.

JosephZ,

I believe the stalemate is the most critical point to support why we must give special attention to the ideology of Islam.

In reality what we end up is this stalemate;


Note I am not referring to terrorist attacks alone, but the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by the SOME 300 million Muslims, lying, petty crimes, oppression to genocides.

I have argued previously, DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil and violence and 20% are born naturally with an active evil potential.

The fact is no humans nor any of the above group nor any other human has the authority to judge which acts as interpreted from the Quran and Ahadiths are right or wrong.

Only Allah can judge but Allah will not be appearing on earth any time to pronounced who is right and wrong other till Judgment Day.

This is why we have to focus on the truth of the above dilemma.

Do you have a counter to nullify the above concern?