The Works of the Law

Jason0047 said:

The Bible is not written in a way that we prefer. Parallels in the Bible are not always meant to be exact in every way. I did not write the Bible. God did. If you have a problem with it, take it up with God. Again, the condition is 1 John 1:7. It says: If you walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light (i.e. God the Father's light), the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 2:9-11 defines specifically what "Walking in the light" means.

Walking in the light = Loving your brother.

Verse 10 says, "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light,"
Verse 11 says, "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness,"

1 John 4:12 says, "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

In other words, the Bible is telling us in two different ways that we need to love our brother as a part of eternal life (or as a part of Christ's blood cleansing us of all sin).

Now, you can either choose to:

(a) Ignore these verses, or:
(b) Change these verses to say something else (to fit your personal belief), or:
(c) Believe them at face value.

The choice is to you.

Choose wisely.

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I see you are trying to understand Paul's church doctrine for the Gentiles thru the lens of what John wrote in 1 John. That is not surprising. Those who are against OSAS tend to use James and 1 John in their rebuttals so you are definitely not the first to do this.

As I have said, people rarely change their opinion on the bible passages they use so I don't want to go and debate what John really meant by walking in the light. I will just highlight the decisions of the Jerusalem Council recorded in Galatians 2

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

So when you try to use 1 John to try to correct Paul's doctrine for the Gentile church, I can see lots of potential problems. But then again, as I said, we rarely change our minds regarding the passages we use for church doctrine, so we can agree to disagree.

Jason0047 said:

We must choose this day in whom we will serve. No man can serve two masters. Maybe you don't see being a servant of the Lord as a daily thing, but maybe as a past event that only happened once to you, but I see serving the Lord as an ongoing thing in my life. Also, when a person sins (regardless if they are a believer or not), they identify with the devil's kingdom.

For 1 John 3:8 says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

This is not just minor infractions here like not taking out the trash on the right day, but it is the kind of sin that grievous (or serious) like hating your brother (See 1 John 3:15). Any breaking of the Moral Law is the equivalent of not loving your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

John 3:20 says, "Everyone who does evil hates the light." (This is a part of the Condemnation - Read John 3:19-21). Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but who WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT. So the condition of not being under the "Condemnation" is to walk not after the flesh (sin), and to walk after the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:13 says,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Jesus said to certain Jews,

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44).

"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

This lines up with what the apostle John says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Again, the Bible says it in several different ways that if anyone (regardless if they are a believer or not) and they do evil, or sin, they are not of God.

For the Jews thought they were saved because Abraham was their father.

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

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No one here is saying you should therefore go ahead and sin all you want, without consequences. There are many consequences of sins.

It is important to understand that we were separated from God in the past, because of our sin nature we inherited from Adam, and not because of our individual acts of sins.

Once you truly understand that, you will understand why there are some people who value Jesus's work on the cross so much that they understand you cannot lose that righteousness thru your individual sins. Again, that does not mean they are saying you should therefore go ahead and sin.

Guojing said:

I see you are trying to understand Paul's church doctrine for the Gentiles thru the lens of what John wrote in 1 John. That is not surprising. Those who are against OSAS tend to use James and 1 John in their rebuttals so you are definitely not the first to do this.

As I have said, people rarely change their opinion on the bible passages they use so I don't want to go and debate what John really meant by walking in the light. I will just highlight the decisions of the Jerusalem Council recorded in Galatians 2

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

So when you try to use 1 John to try to correct Paul's doctrine for the Gentile church, I can see lots of potential problems. But then again, as I said, we rarely change our minds regarding the passages we use for church doctrine, so we can agree to disagree.

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If you are referring to the two (or more) gospel view, this is false.
It is also known as Mid Acts Dispensationalism (a.k.a. MAD).

MAD in certain circles teaches that there is one gospel by Jesus and another gospel by Paul.

However, Paul was a Jew. So if he was a Jew, then why would he teach that which did not apply to him? Also, why did Paul write to other Jews if he was supposed to only write to the Gentiles?

For Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

Guojing said:

No one here is saying you should therefore go ahead and sin all you want, without consequences. There are many consequences of sins.

It is important to understand that we were separated from God in the past, because of our sin nature we inherited from Adam, and not because of our individual acts of sins.

Once you truly understand that, you will understand why there are some people who value Jesus's work on the cross so much that they understand you cannot lose that righteousness thru your individual sins. Again, that does not mean they are saying you should therefore go ahead and sin.

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Your not getting it.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Please check out the verse references before replying back.

Thank you for reading;
And may the Lord's good ways be upon you.

Jason0047 said:

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching​

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Am always very curious about people who hold this view. So what exactly is the gospel that is being preached in the 4 Gospels? If we were to take this example from Luke 9:6.

6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

This passage clearly states that the 12 were "preaching the gospel". But what gospel did they preach? What is the good news that is being proclaimed by Jesus and the 12 then?
Is it the same gospel message you preach to non-believers now?

Jason0047 said:

Your not getting it.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Please check out the verse references before replying back.

Thank you for reading;
And may the Lord's good ways be upon you.

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I could say the same thing about you not getting what Romans 5:12-19 is saying. Is it Adam's disobedience that ultimately resulted in his descendants being separated from God? Or was it their individual acts of sin, or both? What is your view?

Guojing said:

Am always very curious about people who hold this view. So what exactly is the gospel that is being preached in the 4 Gospels? If we were to take this example from Luke 9:6.

6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

This passage clearly states that the 12 were "preaching the gospel". But what gospel did they preach? What is the good news that is being proclaimed by Jesus and the 12 then?
Is it the same gospel message you preach to non-believers now?

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The gospel preached by Christ's disciples is the same gospel at it's core, but it was with fewer details. Jesus said many times to believe in Him for salvation and to come to Him as a part of salvation. When Paul came on to the scene, he preached Christ's death and resurrection that the early apostles did at Pentecost (Which was in the scope of God's plan of salvation all along). Peter preached Christ's death and resurrection at Pentecost. This was not a different gospel than the One Jesus preached because Jesus was already foretelling His disciples of His death and resurrection beforehand. He just did not tell them to preach this added information to others yet. But at the heart or it's core, the gospel message is not a different gospel. There is only one gospel. God did not change the gospel message with Peter or Paul, He merely fleshed out the details for others to know about later. The gospel message of Christ's death and resurrection was preached at Pentecost. But Salvation was always to be in Christ's death and resurrection. Without the resurrection, we would still be yet in our sins.

Guojing said:

I could say the same thing about you not getting what Romans 5:12-19 is saying. Is it Adam's disobedience that ultimately resulted in his descendants being separated from God? Or was it their individual acts of sin, or both? What is your view?

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I see Adam's transgression passing down sin upon the physical body only for his descendants. I believe the promise of the Messiah (Which was a guarantee before the foundation of the world was a fact) and this promise was able to be a downpayment for babies to spiritually alive or saved in God's eyes. So if a baby dies physically via Adam's sin, they would be saved spiritually by Christ's redemptive work. The baby's soul and spirit will go to be with the Lord because of the salvation provided to us by Jesus. We have to understand that everyone's name is written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (With the exception of those who will worship the beast in the future - See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). In fact, the Parable of the Prodigal Son is an illustration of a person's entire life. A baby starts off saved spiritually, and then they fall away into sin (like the prodigal son going prodigal), and then they can come back to the Lord Jesus (Who is our everlasting Father) by repenting of their sins to Him (Note: Jesus is the everlasting Father, because in the flesh and blood body resurrection, we will be resurrected after Christ's likeness; He will be our father genealogically speaking in the resurrection).

Jason0047 said:

I see Adam's transgression passing down sin upon the physical body only for his descendants. I believe the promise of the Messiah (Which was a guarantee before the foundation of the world was a fact) and this promise was able to be a downpayment for babies to spiritually alive or saved in God's eyes. So if a baby dies physically via Adam's sin, they would be saved spiritually by Christ's redemptive work. The baby's soul and spirit will go to be with the Lord because of the salvation provided to us by Jesus. We have to understand that everyone's name is written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (With the exception of those who will worship the beast in the future - See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). In fact, the Parable of the Prodigal Son is an illustration of a person's entire life. A baby starts off saved spiritually, and then they fall away into sin (like the prodigal son going prodigal), and then they can come back to the Lord Jesus (Who is our everlasting Father) by repenting of their sins to Him (Note: Jesus is the everlasting Father, because in the flesh and blood body resurrection, we will be resurrected after Christ's likeness; He will be our father genealogically speaking in the resurrection).

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So you belief is that it still based on individual sins that will condemn the unbeliever to hell.

In that case, I can understand better why you believe a Christian can lose his salvation if there is either not enough good deeds, or enough bad deeds.

Jason0047 said:

This was not a different gospel than the One Jesus preached because Jesus was already foretelling His disciples of His death and resurrection beforehand. He just did not tell them to preach this added information to others yet.

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Interesting interpretation you have of this. How did you conclude that "He just did not tell them to preach this added information to others yet"?

On the other hand, if you read scripture, you realized the 12 were

• Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
  
  
• 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
• 2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
• 3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
• 4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
• 5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
• 6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

• Disbelief in the Resurrection
• 7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
• 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
• 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
• 10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
• 11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.

• Did not understand the cross for salvation
• 12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.
• 13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.
• 14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
• 15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
• 16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

Conclusions:
This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.

However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.
The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.

"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9

Guojing said:

You are still so paranoid. I am trying to figure whether you have a red letter bible thinking. These are Christians who prize the red words of Jesus in the 4 gospels as their main doctrine.

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Sure, tout me as out of control somehow while you still haven't touched on what you meant with the comment, wanna know why.

And please stop tying to change the subject..."red letter bible thinking"?

Kenny'sID said:

Sure, tout me as out of control somehow while you still haven't touched on what you meant with the comment, wanna know why.

And please stop tying to change the subject..."red letter bible thinking"?

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You are asking me what is on my mind, and I am telling you.

Guojing said:

Interesting interpretation you have of this. How did you conclude that "He just did not tell them to preach this added information to others yet"?

On the other hand, if you read scripture, you realized the 12 were

• Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
  
  
• 1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.
• 2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.
• 3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”
• 4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”
• 5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”
• 6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.
• Disbelief in the Resurrection
• 7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.
• 8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.
• 9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.
• 10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.
• 11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.

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This is not news for me. I have studied the New Testament for a long time now. Most Christians who have studied the Bible know these basic truths. I am not in disagreement with these parts of Scripture. This does not mean it was a different gospel before the cross. It was the same gospel, but it was not fully revealed in detail yet. The gospel was told by Christ before He was crucified and resurrected, but the disciples did not get it yet. Their lack of understanding does not mean that there was no death and resurrection as a part of our salvation. Jesus died and rose again as a part of the gospel, and this truth was later revealed to them not as a different gospel, but as the same gospel but more in focus or clarity. For example: If you look through a pair of binoculars and you seen a fuzzy image of a house, your adjusting the focus on the binoculars to see it in full detail a second or two later does not mean it is a different house you are looking at. From your perspective the house looked different between it being out of focus, vs. being in focus. But you see any kind of change like this as two entirely different things? Surely not. The house did not change. Your perception of the house is what changed. Jesus preached the gospel (He predicted His death and resurrection), but the disciples perception was out of focus on what Jesus was talking about. The Lord later clarifying the gospel message to them does not mean it was a different gospel as your propose.

You said:

Did not understand the cross for salvation
12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.

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This not like confessing sins to a Catholic priest. This was the disciples being able to declare men forgiven or not forgiven based on their witness of men's acceptance or rejection of the gospel message of salvation that Jesus gave to them at that time. Certain details being out of focus does (i.e. Christ's death and resurrection) does not mean it was a different gospel. For Jesus preached His death and resurrection, but the perception of his hearers were not able to receive or see what He was saying. So while His disciples did not preach the full detailed gospel message before the cross, Jesus surely did preach His own death and resurrection to all.

You said:

13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.

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Verse 15 says He was raised from the dead in whom they were witnesses.

Also, Peter speaks of Christ's death and resurrection at Pentecost in Acts of the Apostles 2.

Peter preaches on Christ's death:

Peter preaches on Christ's resurrection:

After their hearing the message of Christ's death and resurrection, the crowd desires on what must they do and Peter gives them instructions to repent and to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.
15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.
16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?

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Nope. Sometime after Pentecost, (before Paul was made a minister), the apostles preached the resurrection of Christ.

"These men were angry because the apostles were teaching the people that the dead would be raised from death, just as Jesus had been raised from death." (Acts of the Apostles 4:2) (CEV).

You said:

"...to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery..." Ephesians 3:9

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What is the mystery of our fellowship?


We have godly fellowship because of the mystery that God was manifest in the flesh (The Son of God, second person of the Godhead or the Trinity) entered the flesh of a man, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


The mystery or secret to living a godly life lies in Christ. For He is God, and He was preached unto the Gentiles (starting with Cornelius). In fact, in Acts 11, we learn that Peter reports to his Jewish brethren in Christ that God is now accepting the Gentiles (Which was via by his message to Cornelius).

"When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts of the Apostles 11:18). If Peter preached a different gospel message then Paul, then why did Cornelius (A Gentile) receiving the gospel by Peter instead of Paul preaching to him?

Guojing said:

So you belief is that it still based on individual sins that will condemn the unbeliever to hell.

In that case, I can understand better why you believe a Christian can lose his salvation if there is either not enough good deeds, or enough bad deeds.

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The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).


“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Jason0047 said:

I see Adam's transgression passing down sin upon the physical body only for his descendants. I believe the promise of the Messiah (Which was a guarantee before the foundation of the world was a fact) and this promise was able to be a downpayment for babies to spiritually alive or saved in God's eyes. So if a baby dies physically via Adam's sin, they would be saved spiritually by Christ's redemptive work. The baby's soul and spirit will go to be with the Lord because of the salvation provided to us by Jesus. We have to understand that everyone's name is written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (With the exception of those who will worship the beast in the future - See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). In fact, the Parable of the Prodigal Son is an illustration of a person's entire life. A baby starts off saved spiritually, and then they fall away into sin (like the prodigal son going prodigal), and then they can come back to the Lord Jesus (Who is our everlasting Father) by repenting of their sins to Him (Note: Jesus is the everlasting Father, because in the flesh and blood body resurrection, we will be resurrected after Christ's likeness; He will be our father genealogically speaking in the resurrection).

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Guojing said:

So you belief is that it still based on individual sins that will condemn the unbeliever to hell.

In that case, I can understand better why you believe a Christian can lose his salvation if there is either not enough good deeds, or enough bad deeds.

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Again, I am not sure you understand Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8.


These verses say that those who dwell on the earth or those who worship the beast during the tribulation period do not have their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Why stress that their names are not written in the book of life since the foundation of the world if nobody's name is written in the book of life since the foundation of the world?

In fact, Scripture says, that before the world's foundation, He (God) chose us in Him (Ephesians 1:4).

Scripture says before the world, God promised us eternal life (Titus 1:2).

The Lamb is slain before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).

Jesus is called the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

All men's names were in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world as a result of the PROMISE of Christ's sacrifice. The only exception to the rule on those who would be left out are those who will worship the beast in the future (Revelation 13:8), or those (no doubt wicked men of the beast) who dwell on the Earth in the tribulation period (Revelation 17:8).

So it is "sin" that separates a person from God.
For the Bible says children are of the Kingdom (Luke 18:16-17), and the Bible implies that a baby who dies does go to Heaven (2 Samuel 12:23). But if Christ never went to the cross, then everyone would have been condemned (Including babies). But God's Word is like gold. His Word is always true. His prediction of the Messiah was spot on.

Sin separates us from God just like in the Garden with Adam and Eve. However, many today have bought into the enemy's lie (that Eve bought into) that we can disobey God's commands and not die.

Guojing said:

So you belief is that it still based on individual sins that will condemn the unbeliever to hell.

In that case, I can understand better why you believe a Christian can lose his salvation if there is either not enough good deeds, or enough bad deeds.

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Also, how can names be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life?


A similar saying of the necessity of us needing to overcome as a part of salvation is mentioned in Revelation 2 that says,


This suggests that a person is not once saved always saved. For one needs to overcome to have their name not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, and one needs to overcome so as to not be hurt by the second death (Which is the Lake of Fire - See Revelation 21:8).

Guojing said:

So you belief is that it still based on individual sins that will condemn the unbeliever to hell.

In that case, I can understand better why you believe a Christian can lose his salvation if there is either not enough good deeds, or enough bad deeds.

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The parable of the Talents suggests that the servant who was faithful over a little results in them entering God's Kingdom (See Matthew 25:23), and the unprofitable servant who did not do anything for God was the one was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).

Jesus says to certain believers who did wonderful works in Matthew 7:23 to depart from Him because He did not know them and they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. So they justified sin. That's the reason why Jesus told them to depart from Him.

Guojing said:

So you belief is that it still based on individual sins that will condemn the unbeliever to hell.

In that case, I can understand better why you believe a Christian can lose his salvation if there is either not enough good deeds, or enough bad deeds.

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Also, not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).


Examples of Grievous Sin:


Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).


Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:



Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:27 says, "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

Guojing said:

Am always very curious about people who hold this view. So what exactly is the gospel that is being preached in the 4 Gospels? If we were to take this example from Luke 9:6 - And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing everywhere.

This passage clearly states that the 12 were "preaching the gospel". But what gospel did they preach? What is the good news that is being proclaimed by Jesus and the 12 then?
Is it the same gospel message you preach to non-believers now?

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Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. John the Baptist also preached the gospel of the kingdom, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2) This shows that before the cross, the content of the gospel that Paul taught and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) was still a mystery.

Ephesians 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

That was not the content of the gospel which the twelve, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ were preaching before the cross, yet they were still preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not yet preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

In Matthew 16:15, Jesus Christ asked His disciples, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Now Peter had no clue that Jesus Christ would be crucified and resurrected, yet He did believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. This is obvious when, only moments later, Peter rebukes Jesus Christ for saying he will be killed, and be raised again the third day" (Matthew 16:21). In verse 22, "..Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Before his death, Jesus told His 12 disciples that he had to die and that he would rise again on the third day. Looking back on passage we see it's unquestionable that the disciples were ignorant of its meaning.

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. – Luke 18:31-34.

Now that's strange if the content of the gospel that came through a revelation of Jesus Christ to Paul and was a mystery prior to that has the same content as the gospel of the kingdom before the cross. *This is where we need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

After his crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting his resurrection, the disciples were still ignorant, disheartened at the death of their Messiah, and did not even believe the testimony at first of his resurrection (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:19-24).

It was not until after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding (Luke 24:44-47).

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we see the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In this age, there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19; Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3). This new revelation that Paul received is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the same body, and fellow partakers of the promise through the gospel (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body (the body of Christ) was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the Church is that Jews and Gentiles alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13).