Do our secular laws define our morals?

redleghunter

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In various discussions topics such as abortion, euthanasia and others have been heated to say the least. One theme I have observed is that there are arguments for, for example, abortion and euthanasia where it is put forth that in most cases it is lawful therefore, the person is in support of the law.

Yet when asked of a Christian worldview based on Holy Scriptures and historic church teachings, that both abortion and euthanasia are immoral, the answer still seems to be "but it is legal in this country/state."

So how should our secular laws influence our Christian morals? Or does the post-modern Christian outlook have it all wrong?...That it should be the morals established by God which should influence our Christian Worldview as we are the light bearers of the Light of the World, Jesus Christ.
 
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section9+1

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Secular laws don't influence my morals. They may influence my behavior. I wear a seat belt because I do not want to pay the penalty of disobedience, but I attach no morality to it. Would you blow through a red light if you were way in the country and you could see no one else was anywhere around? I would because I do not see it as morally significant.
 
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redleghunter

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Would you blow through a red light if you were way in the country and you could see no one else was anywhere around? I would because I do not see it as morally significant.
There are usually no traffic lights in small towns or out in the way out country.
 
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redleghunter

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Secular laws don't influence my morals. They may influence my behavior. I wear a seat belt because I do not want to pay the penalty of disobedience, but I attach no morality to it. Would you blow through a red light if you were way in the country and you could see no one else was anywhere around? I would because I do not see it as morally significant.
Now based on the OP are there secular laws which you find morally objectionable?
 
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section9+1

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There are usually no traffic lights in small towns or out in the way out country.
I used to work afternoon shift at a place about 40 miles from home. A very rural area. there was a 4 way intersection with a highway that I had to cross. I had the stop sign, but at midnight coming home there was scant traffic. As I got near the intersection I would shut my headlights off for a moment and if it was pitch dark I wouldn't even slow down. Worked every time.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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I go by the verse about how God says render unto Ceasers what is Ceasers, followed by the other verse that basically says we are to obey mans laws UNLESS mans laws go against Gods laws. For example the whole "bake a cake for LGBT" thing. I would refuse it. People have tried a million ways to get me to change my mind but nothing will work. In the end God is the one I listen to. Not that I am perfect mind you.
 
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chuckpeterson

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I wear a seat belt because I do not want to pay the penalty of disobedience

You wear a seat belt because it may save your life and you stop at a red light because it is the LAW which neither has anything to do with morality; it’s just the right thing to do
 
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Popular consensus or arbitrary decree is a very shaky thing to form societal standards by. At least God's moral law is a better guide of moral conduct for a society, as it is unchanging and corresponds to reality... although it neither imparts the willingness nor the power for people to keep it.
 
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redleghunter

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I go by the verse about how God says render unto Ceasers what is Ceasers, followed by the other verse that basically says we are to obey mans laws UNLESS mans laws go against Gods laws.
I agree. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego come to mind and their opposition to forced idolatry.
 
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section9+1

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You wear a seat belt because it may save your life and you stop at a red light because it is the LAW which neither has anything to do with morality; it’s just the right thing to do
I don't mind wearing a seat belt and I agree it is safer, but I don't attach morality to it. I didn't used to wear one until the cops started laying for me and I decided it just wasn't worth the tickets. And I agree the law hasn't anything to do with morality. Sometimes it happens to agree with morality, but it is not the determiner of morality. So far I've managed to stay out of jail and stay in one piece so I guess I am doing well. A lot better than the old days.
 
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SPF

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Right and wrong stem from the immutable, unchanging character of God. Laws are subjective, fluctuate, change, and can be contradictory from country to country, and even within a country from state to state. Secular laws certainly have no authority to dictate morality.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I think the Christian concession to secularism on the matter of laws in the west was a fatal mistake which should be reversed and challenged. In the west we seem to act as if secularism is the only basis upon which laws or our social and societal ethics and practices can be based and what exactly has that lead to? It's lead to a Hedonistic culture of consumers who are mostly concerned with getting what they want avoiding consequences and making money. It's lead to the breakdown of marriage and the advent of an age where basic communication is a challenge for many people.

No society is perfect, but I do not find the secular program we are currently living in fulfilling or one that cannot be challenged on the basis of our Christianity. We've conceded too much ground and legitimacy to the secular and displaced the spiritual influence of Christianity as irrelevant except when it supports our particular vision.
 
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chuckpeterson

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At least God's moral law is a better guide of moral conduct for a society, as it is unchanging and corresponds to reality...

Five (5) of the Ten Commandments have been put into LAW in every country on this planet

Ten Commandments
6. Thou shalt not kill. (murder)
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
 
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crossnote

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Five (5) of the Ten Commandments have been put into LAW in every country on this planet

Ten Commandments
6. Thou shalt not kill. (murder)
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
They may have the laws on the books but their are other forces pushing otherwise such as...
6. Abortion=legalized murder
7. Adultery is glorified in the media.
8. Stealing? Oppressive taxation.
9. Preachers bear false witness when they speak of God contrary to His Word.
10. Coveting is the name of the game with advertisers.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Secular laws don't influence my morals. They may influence my behavior. I wear a seat belt because I do not want to pay the penalty of disobedience, but I attach no morality to it. Would you blow through a red light if you were way in the country and you could see no one else was anywhere around? I would because I do not see it as morally significant.

I wouldn't.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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In various discussions topics such as abortion, euthanasia and others have been heated to say the least. One theme I have observed is that there are arguments for, for example, abortion and euthanasia where it is put forth that in most cases it is lawful therefore, the person is in support of the law.

Yet when asked of a Christian worldview based on Holy Scriptures and historic church teachings, that both abortion and euthanasia are immoral, the answer still seems to be "but it is legal in this country/state."

So how should our secular laws influence our Christian morals? Or does the post-modern Christian outlook have it all wrong?...That it should be the morals established by God which should influence our Christian Worldview as we are the light bearers of the Light of the World, Jesus Christ.

I don't think you should conflate 'post-modern' positions on behavior necessarily with the notion that local laws are deemed to automatically trump divine commands. Post-modernism is an assortment of various views on reality, so it doesn't follow. In fact, it could be made out (and often is) that the Modernist--as opposed to the Post-Modernist--view on morality has some things wrong about morality and legal thought as well.

Regardless of the above, as Christians, I think we can all agree that the Bible is supposed to take a preeminent role in directing our behavior and it may at times clash with ongoing developments which take place in local law, especially when local legal thought may require Christians to place the Bible at the bottom of their moral deliberation.
 
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redleghunter

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I don't think you should conflate 'post-modern' positions on behavior necessarily with the notion that local laws are deemed to automatically trump divine commands. Post-modernism is an assortment of various views on reality, so it doesn't follow. In fact, it could be made out (and often is) that the Modernist--as opposed to the Post-Modernist--view on morality has some things wrong about morality and legal thought as well.
Bolded above...Point well made. There are so many assortments that people look to the law to arbitrate morals.
 
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Bolded above...Point well made. There are so many assortments that people look to the law to arbitrate morals.

As you already know, I'm sure, the local laws should be expected to express at least 'something' of God's moral will for humanity, however imperfectly they may do so (as per what Paul states in Romans 13), but Christians will look to Christ as their primary influence for moral and legal deliberation, even if over and above what various local authorities might say to the contrary. Really, all of the developments we're seeing today are nothing new or unexpected.
 
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