Solving Unwanted Pregnancy

carp614 said:

The question is why isn't it effective. I think I know why and it has to do with the disintegration of the family unit more than the effectiveness of the teaching. The problem with this debate is that we talk around each other in circles because the solution to the root cause is verbotten in modern culture.

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Lets jump right in and address it

The church has failed, and continues to fail, and has no clue how to do anything other than fail.

Granted, this is really harsh, but when born again evangelical Christians engage in premarital sex anywhere from 54-80% by age 29, depending on the study, stats analysis, and qualification factors, abstinence teaching isn't working in the church. How can we expect it to work in the world, when it doesn't work in our own house? As tall73 mentions up thread... there is value in abstinence far beyond just avoiding abortion.

So... we have divorce rates not much different than secular society, and the abortion rates for Christians nearly match the demographic data for population size... so we preach it in church, and folks in the pews go ahead and have abortion anyhow. The abortion rate for married couples is scarily high.

I have a guess, I could be wrong, but I wonder if its due to churches aversion of moral hazard, and or churches desiring to avoid scandal that is at the bottom of it? I'm open for ideas for sure... the root solutions are even more verbotten it seems.

Consider the following from focus on the family
Survey: Women Go Silently From Church to Abortion Clinic

mnphysicist said:

Lets jump right in and address it

The church has failed, and continues to fail, and has no clue how to do anything other than fail.

Granted, this is really harsh, but when born again evangelical Christians engage in premarital sex anywhere from 54-80% by age 29, depending on the study, stats analysis, and qualification factors, abstinence teaching isn't working in the church. How can we expect it to work in the world, when it doesn't work in our own house? As tall73 mentions up thread... there is value in abstinence far beyond just avoiding abortion.

So... we have divorce rates not much different than secular society, and the abortion rates for Christians nearly match the demographic data for population size... so we preach it in church, and folks in the pews go ahead and have abortion anyhow. The abortion rate for married couples is scarily high.

I have a guess, I could be wrong, but I wonder if its due to churches aversion of moral hazard, and or churches desiring to avoid scandal that is at the bottom of it? I'm open for ideas for sure... the root solutions are even more verbotten it seems.

Consider the following from focus on the family
Survey: Women Go Silently From Church to Abortion Clinic

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Thanks for posting this. These are facts that need to be reckoned with. My own story: when I got an abortion I was about to leave for college. If I had told my parents I was pregnant, I would have lost everything, my home, my family, and my future education. At least that is what I believed. There were no single pregnant women in our church, I would have been treated to horrible gossip and disdain at church and in my peer group (I had attended a Christian high school.) I don’t regret my decision, but I do regret that I was not allowed to choose to have a baby and keep the love and support of my family, my church, and my education. Having sex should not be the end of the world.

Sparagmos said:

I don’t regret my decision.... Having sex should not be the end of the world.

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Having sex isn't the end of the world, but getting killed certainly is.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

Having sex isn't the end of the world, but getting killed certainly is.

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I’m not sure I understand.

Sparagmos said:

If I had told my parents I was pregnant, I would have lost everything, my home, my family, and my future education. At least that is what I believed.

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This mirrors what happened to a 30 something mom that worked for me a ways back.

There were no single pregnant women in our church, I would have been treated to horrible gossip and disdain at church and in my peer group (I had attended a Christian high school.)

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Beyond her parents abandoning her, so did her church, and had their been a cross around, my guess they would have hung her on it. It was brutal how much hate came to of the woodwork. And her ex-boyfriend who abandoned her got a pass.

So, she is on the brink of suicide, and fortunately calls a hotline, and they talk her down... at that point, the only viable option she see going forward is abortion.

It took years for her to return to church, and no, not that one.

And yet, many churches don't like to hear this, they've never do anything like that... but I've never seen a pregnant single mom in the churches that say that. Even more so, when I keep bringing this up, I get told, don't distract us, we've got to protest clinics, we've got to get the law changed, we've got to save babies.... and the cycle of young Christian women having abortions continues.

Somethings wrong, and its not the young woman left with the choice of suicide or abortion.

I don’t regret my decision, but I do regret that I was not allowed to choose to have a baby and keep the love and support of my family, my church, and my education.

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I'm so sorry you were put in that position. Many Churches have a long way to go when it comes to following Jesus.

nonaeroterraqueous said:

Having sex isn't the end of the world, but getting killed certainly is.

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Very true. It truly sickens me to think of all the innocent blood of the unborn that has been shed in this country and the kind of excuses that some people will use in an attempt to justify abortion.

mnphysicist said:

Consider the following from focus on the family
Survey: Women Go Silently From Church to Abortion Clinic

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I'm not sure blaming the Church or other Christians for a woman's personal choice to end the life of her unborn child will actually suffice when the woman stands before God in judgment. God has made Himself quite clear that He hates the hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:16-17).

Robert6671 said:

Do you what I think is funny every idea to stop unwanted pregnancies gets shot down. You do not want abortions. You want to preach abstinence and that is all good and dandy but kids are still going to have sex. No matter how much you preach there going to do it and as far as drugs and alcohol, well drink tends to affect sexual performance sadly it guys getting women high and drunk to have sex, the more you drink the less likely a man will be able to preform and many drugs affect men the same way. Now i say preach abstinence but it is the only 100 percent guarantee but also teach contraception.

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Actually I think it is important to talk about both contraception, and smarter choices. And no, I already posted how not all kids are having sex. We need to look at what leads kids to have sex early. Because it is correlated with lack of parental relationship, especially fathers, and with poverty, and drug use, etc.

I think it is a good idea to let kids know that if they are going to have sex then contraception is a good idea. However, there is no contraception that is one hundred percent. So yes, abstinence is the only way to avoid pregnancy completely. And the majority of kids through high school do choose it. And of those who do not most use contraception.

High Fidelity said:

Abstinence only is a proven failure.

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You don't need to do abstinence only education. But let's face it, abstinence is better birth control. And those who delay sex as was noted have better outcomes. So present both, and the risks and advantages of both.

Besides the argument is a bit ridiculous considering how many people against abortion don't and won't adopt.

That's like not voting and then complaining about the government.

Put your money where your mouth is or keep it shut, in my opinion.

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So then would your solution be to go beyond abortion and start taking out the foster kids when young as well?

Sparagmos said:

This is a couple years old, but if abstinence only education is effective, why did Texas have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the country in 2017? Abstinence only sex Ed is a complete failure.
Texas has the highest rate of repeat teen pregnancy in the country | Commentary | Dallas News

In Texas, Abstinence-Only Programs May Contribute To Teen Pregnancies

Study: A quarter of Texas public schools no longer teach sex ed

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So far all I did was post statistics. You already know from the other conversation I am not advocating only abstinence education. However, I do think they deserve to know that contraception has failure rates, delaying sex is associated with good outcomes, etc.

Yes, teach contraception as well. I think if anyone is going to have sex when they are not wanting children then obviously contraception is better than not. And the failure rate is even higher if they don't know what they are doing.

But that will not solve the abortion problem. The statistics I provided earlier indicate that the majority getting abortions use contraception.

Which is why you are better off not having sex if you do not want children. Or at the least go with the most effective, or multiple methods.

carp614 said:

The question is why isn't it effective. I think I know why and it has to do with the disintegration of the family unit more than the effectiveness of the teaching.

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As just one aspect of how the family relates, here is an interesting article which reveals and discusses the effects of present or absent fathers.

A quote from the article:

Much evidence suggests that father absence shifts daughters toward accelerated development, sexuality and reproduction. For instance, researchers have repeatedly demonstrated that early paternal investment is an important determinant of pubertal timing, with daughters of less involved fathers experiencing earlier menarche relative to girls growing up with more involved fathers (Ellis et al., 2003; Ellis et al., 1999; Quinlan, 2003). Moreover, father-absent girls display a host of outcomes often experienced by early developing girls – including increased sexual promiscuity, higher rates of teen pregnancy, earlier first sexual intercourse and reproduction, and difficulty forming stable long-term relationships – with the most pronounced effects being observed for girls whose fathers were absent from an early age (Belsky et al., 1991; Chisholm et al., 2005; Draper & Harpending, 1982; Quinlan, 2003). For example, Ellis and colleagues (2003) examined the association between father absence and girls’ sexual behaviour in a demographically diverse sample of girls over a 13-year span. The results revealed that adolescent girls who experienced father absence early in life were twice as likely to have had sexual intercourse and seven times more likely to have been pregnant by age 17 relative to girls whose fathers were present during their early development. Moreover, these effects appear to be specific to girls whose fathers are voluntarily absent, with daughters of widows being spared from these outcomes (Draper & Harpending, 1982; Hetherington, 1972).

Robert6671 said:

So abortion should be allowed

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Your question should stop right there.... no need to carry on and add a bunch of situations where killing a defenseless unborn child should be "OK".
Think of it like robbing a bank or punching a 4 year old, stabbing a homeless person while they sleep, slashing someones tires or burning someones house down.....

There is never a reason that makes abortion OK.

Sparagmos said:

If our goal is to reduce unwanted pregnancies and abortion, shouldn’t we do what is proven to work, and NOT do what is proven not to work? It seems pretty simple.

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On an individual level the solution is actually quite simple. It's simplicity doesn't make it easy.

Whatever the most effective answer is, its roots and its effectiveness are directly dependent on the makeup and maintenance of families and the supporting value structures therein. Strengthening families and family values is integral to improving this problem. That is my opinion.

mnphysicist said:

Lets jump right in and address it

The church has failed, and continues to fail, and has no clue how to do anything other than fail.

Granted, this is really harsh, but when born again evangelical Christians engage in premarital sex anywhere from 54-80% by age 29, depending on the study, stats analysis, and qualification factors, abstinence teaching isn't working in the church. How can we expect it to work in the world, when it doesn't work in our own house? As tall73 mentions up thread... there is value in abstinence far beyond just avoiding abortion.

So... we have divorce rates not much different than secular society, and the abortion rates for Christians nearly match the demographic data for population size... so we preach it in church, and folks in the pews go ahead and have abortion anyhow. The abortion rate for married couples is scarily high.

I have a guess, I could be wrong, but I wonder if its due to churches aversion of moral hazard, and or churches desiring to avoid scandal that is at the bottom of it? I'm open for ideas for sure... the root solutions are even more verbotten it seems.

Consider the following from focus on the family
Survey: Women Go Silently From Church to Abortion Clinic

Click to expand...

I suppose I would argue this differently, though we might or might not end up in approximately the same place. So here is what I think: Since when is it the churches responsibility? I see no evidence in the Bible the the Body of Christ is supposed to regulate the sexual activities of individuals. No, what is offered instead is a Godly model for sex, marriage, family, etc. that we can follow. Can...not must...free will is in full play here. So we can know what we should do and still choose to do something else. The church can't take that away and God will not take that away.

So what is the answer? I don't know. Unfortunately I have to rather shamelessly arm chair quarterback (sorry!) and settle for understanding why one idea or another is either the wrong answer or an incomplete answer.

I admit the only answers I find palatable involve the church. But they also involve changing modern human community, and secular familial norms (like divorce, single parenthood, etc.). I don't know the right combination, but I do know that addressing one aspect of the problem without even acknowledging the more fundamental root causes, up to and including man's sin nature, make any effort to improve this problem a losing proposition.

Sparagmos said:

This is a couple years old, but if abstinence only education is effective, why did Texas have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the country in 2017? Abstinence only sex Ed is a complete failure.
Texas has the highest rate of repeat teen pregnancy in the country | Commentary | Dallas News

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I am not arguing the larger point you made, but the 86 percent receiving medicaid raises the question of whether these were primarily from families in poverty, which correlates with earlier promiscuity.

Sparagmos said:

In Texas, Abstinence-Only Programs May Contribute To Teen Pregnancies

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A quote:

Traditionally, the two variables most commonly associated with high teen birth rates are education and poverty, but a new study co-authored by Dr. Julie DeCesare, of the University of Florida's OB-GYN residency program in Pensacola, shows that there's more at play.


"We controlled for poverty as a variable, and we found these 10 centers where their teen birth rates were much higher than would be predicted," she says.

The example given in the article was of a young woman who became pregnant as a teen, as did her mother, and her grandmother before her. Why do you think these generational trends continue, especially in areas of poverty?

Sparagmos said:

In Texas, Abstinence-Only Programs May Contribute To Teen Pregnancies

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This article also lists a specific legal hurdle in Texas and Utah:

In Texas, if a 17-year-old mom wants prescription birth control, in most cases she needs her parents' permission. "Only us and Utah have a law that if you're already a parent, you are the legal medical guardian of your baby but you cannot make your own medical decisions without the now-grandma involved," Daverth says.

carp614 said:

I suppose I would argue this differently, though we might or might not end up in approximately the same place. So here is what I think: Since when is it the churches responsibility? I see no evidence in the Bible the the Body of Christ is supposed to regulate the sexual activities of individuals.

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Are you speaking of individuals inside or outside the church?

tall73 said:

Are you speaking of individuals inside or outside the church?

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The principle of reaping and sowing applies to every single individual...inside or outside the church.

carp614 said:

The principle of reaping and sowing applies to every single individual...inside or outside the church.

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Agreed. But that was not what I asked about. You said the church does not have the role of judging or intervening with the individual regarding sex.

I asked if you meant inside or outside the church.